Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[jis]

The Pere Marquette here in MI uses a Snack Coach Superliner, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Heartland Flyer uses one as well. They are numbered in the 35000-35010 range, although I'm uncertain if there are actually 10 out there.

peter

They are numbered 35001 through 35010. Only 8 are in active service. Two are equipped for push-pull for use in the Heartland Flyer per the OTOL Amtrak Roster page. All of them are Superliner Is converted from straight Coaches.

 

[OBS]

There are at least 7 or 8 snack bar coaches. They have been around for years, as they ran on the International to Toronto as well as I worked a few on 50/51 when it was Superliner service. They are also often used in lieu of coaches similar to Superliner Coach/baggage.

 

[Guest]

How much of this order is paid for by stimulus funds and how much by other funds?

From the link above

(skip all the reading of the minutes, LOL, the info is on the last pages at the bottom),

IDOT for 88 cars (on behalf of Michigan and Missouri too) total $238.5 million

of which Stimulus $211.4 million

and from HSIPR $27.1 million

Caltrains total $113.8 million

of which Stimulus $54.2 million

from HSIPR $36.8 million

and from Prop 1B state funds $22.8 million

So while Cali might get less than half its cars by deadline Sept 2017,

the Midwest must get about 85% of its cars or it's Cinderella's Coach.

Not so bad for Cali after all

Not sure if any of the 45 option order waiting for sign-off is to use

Stimulus funds, but I doubt it. They've paid attention to the deadline,

after all.

 

[Guest]

How much of this order is paid for by stimulus funds and how much by other funds?

From the link above

(skip all the reading of the minutes, LOL, the info is on the last pages at the bottom),

IDOT for 88 cars (on behalf of Michigan and Missouri too) total $238.5 million

. . .

Caltrains total $113.8 million

. . .

. . .

Not sure if any of the 45 option order waiting for sign-off is to use

Stimulus funds, but I doubt it. They've paid attention to the deadline,

after all.

Also not sure why "Administrator requires Verification code" now

afflicts my attempts to post. I'm not guest or guest_guest,

I'm Member WoodyinNYC.

 

[Ryan]

You need to log in.

 

[VentureForth]

The database was acting a bit squirly just a bit ago. Try to log in again. Maybe for some odd reason it requires the authorization code you got when you registered, but I doubt it.

 

[afigg]

So while Cali might get less than half its cars by deadline Sept 2017, the Midwest must get about 85% of its cars or it's Cinderella's Coach.

Not so bad for Cali after all

Not sure if any of the 45 option order waiting for sign-off is to use Stimulus funds, but I doubt it. They've paid attention to the deadline, after all.

I think a chunk of the remaining funds to be used for the option order are indeed ARRA stimulus funds. At least for the Midwest based on a quick read of the HSIPR grant summary list the FRA last updated in 2012. The funds for the Midwest bi-level order is coming from the $1.04 billion (ARRA) for CHI-STL (the rolling stock portion), $268 million (ARRA) for Midwest Next Generation Passenger Rail Equipment Purchase, $177 million (FY10) for CHI-[not quite to] Iowa City (rolling stock portion), and perhaps the FY10 grants for Kalamazoo-Dearborn corridor. The FRA may have done or be planning to do some shuffling of funds between other ARRA grants and FY10 grants to have FY10 funds pay for the post FY2017 deliveries of the option units in the Nippon-Sharyo contract.

 

[rickycourtney]

Aha. This is the missing piece of information. Thanks. I didn't know Caltrans was leasing any Superliners in food-service configurations, even partial food-service configurations.

Actually, I didn't know there WERE any Superliners in a "snack coach" configuration; are these part of the 7 wreck-rebuilt Superliners leased by California? If so, they'll have to be reconfigured prior to use on the national system, since there's no role for a "snack coach" on the western long-distance trains.

As others have mentioned, there were 10 "snack coaches" built. The crews call them "panic boxes" because they're good at both filling in for a café, lounge or a coach car... whatever is needed most. The other routes where they see active service are the Pere Marquette and the Heartland Flyer.

Here's a crummy picture of the lower-level cafe area:



I snapped this when the snack coach was being used to add capacity to the San Joaquin last thanksgiving. It's very spartan even compared to the Surfliner Café/Coach.

I've been watching the financial reports carefully. Amtrak's Surfliners were leased from some bank (you know, as usual), and the early buyout option or lease termination (not sure which) came up this year. Amtrak exercised almost all of its buyout options this year with a commercial line of credit. I can't be sure, but it looks from making some calculations as if Amtrak did not exercise the Surfliner buyout options along with the rest; the numbers look right if Amtrak exercise everything but the Surfliner options. This makes me suspicious that Amtrak may have instead managed to convince California to buy out the leases. This is sheer hypothesis, and I haven't managed to find any record of any purchase on the California end.

I like your theory, it sounds plausible to me.

I suspect Amtrak would have needed to do very little convincing to get California to buy out the leases (assuming the money was available). The ownership of these cars are the one of the very few "sticks" Amtrak has when it comes to negotiations with California. If California starts to "shop around" for another operator for the Pacific Surfliner, it would've still been forced to lease this equipment back from Amtrak. I'm sure California would prefer to have all the equipment be state owned.

 

[CHamilton]

Nippon Sharyo expands US rolling stock plant

USA: Nippon Sharyo USA has opened a third production hall at its plant in Rochelle, Illinois.

‘We will now be able to fabricate, weld, and assemble parts for our car bodyshells right here, making Nippon Sharyo a 100% Buy America compliant rail car builder’, said Nippon Sharyo Chairman Katsuyuki Ikushima at the inauguration on July 30. ‘From start to finish our rail cars will be made in the USA for use in the USA. I hope we will become the top passenger railcar builder in North America.’

 

[neroden]

Looking at the numbers, 75.39% of the funding is stimulus (ARRA) funding. 75.39% of the cars (with the option added) would be 131.93 cars. At 6 cars per month, that's 22 months. As long as 6 cars a month are being delivered by December 2015, they should be able to do it; so I think they have a little wiggle room, but not much. Hopefully they're planning to start deliveries in October or November!

 

[robert smith]

Any concept sketches available on these cars?

 

[rickycourtney]

Here's the one and only exterior rendering... it looks just like the current California Car/Surfliner design except with a pointy front end on the cabcars to comply with new regulations on having crushable space.

 

[Steve4031]

Looking at the numbers, 75.39% of the funding is stimulus (ARRA) funding. 75.39% of the cars (with the option added) would be 131.93 cars. At 6 cars per month, that's 22 months. As long as 6 cars a month are being delivered by December 2015, they should be able to do it; so I think they have a little wiggle room, but not much. Hopefully they're planning to start deliveries in October or November!

I'm confused. Are you saying they will start delivering 6 per month in December 2015?

 

[afigg]

Looking at the numbers, 75.39% of the funding is stimulus (ARRA) funding. 75.39% of the cars (with the option added) would be 131.93 cars. At 6 cars per month, that's 22 months. As long as 6 cars a month are being delivered by December 2015, they should be able to do it; so I think they have a little wiggle room, but not much. Hopefully they're planning to start deliveries in October or November!

That 75% of the funding is stimulus/ARRA funding is for the baseline order of 130 cars, based on the LOSSAN board meeting viewgraph. The 45 car option may have a different funding breakdown between ARRA, FY2010, and state sources. The LOSSAN board meeting presentation (from May) has the projected final car delivery in June 2018 which I interpret as including the 45 option cars. But I expect the FRA and the state agencies have figured out the payment schedules and the risks.

The Pilot car testing is to run from July 2015 to January 2016, so it would be reasonable that the plan is to start low rate initial production in the fall of 2015, but the initial cars might not be fully fitted out until the end of 2015 or January 2016. This of course, is based on no schedule slips, and the schedule for a major production job like this for all new build almost always slips.

 

[afigg]

Here's the one and only exterior rendering... it looks just like the current California Car/Surfliner design except with a pointy front end on the cabcars to comply with new regulations on having crushable space.

I would regard that rendering as an early conceptual one. The N-S cars will have the same overall form factor and layout as a Surfliner, but we should expect the final product to look at least a bit different from the rendering. The base schedule has the first carshell completed by December 2014, so there might be a press event or update with photos released then.

BTW, N-S USA issued a press release back on July 30 for the ribbon cutting ceremony which has several exterior shots of the Rochelle plant and the new Shop 3 fabrication building: Nippon Sharyo U.S.A Holds Grand Opening Ceremony for Shop III; Addition to Manufacturing Campus increase employment to 500.

 

[rickycourtney]

I would regard that rendering as an early conceptual one. The N-S cars will have the same overall form factor and layout as a Surfliner, but we should expect the final product to look at least a bit different from the rendering.

With the exception of the front end of the cab... that concept appears to be identical to the California Car and Surfliner. Actually there are very few exterior differences between the California Car and Surfliner. The most noticeable is that California Car has more fluting on the side.

 

[neroden]

Regarding the money, the option order is paid for because *the initial order came in under budget* -- it's paid for by the budget underrun. Therefore it's going to be exactly the same money as originally allocated.

 

[Paulus]

A bit of additional information from LOSSAN. Table 9.2 on page 3 of Attachment C gives the per car prices for the new bi-levels.

Coach: $2.7 million

Cab: $2.9 million

Café: $2.9 million

 

[Anderson]

A bit of additional information from LOSSAN. Table 9.2 on page 3 of Attachment C gives the per car prices for the new bi-levels.

Coach: $2.7 million

Cab: $2.9 million

Café: $2.9 million

Now that is interesting, not the least because Amtrak was (if I'm not mistaken) assuming $4m/car for bilevels.

 

[rickycourtney]

A bit of additional information from LOSSAN. Table 9.2 on page 3 of Attachment C gives the per car prices for the new bi-levels.

Coach: $2.7 million

Cab: $2.9 million

Café: $2.9 million

Now that is interesting, not the least because Amtrak was (if I'm not mistaken) assuming $4m/car for bilevels.

That's the power of buying in bulk!
It's also why Amtrak should try to take advantage of the situation and order some new cars.

 

[afigg]

A bit of additional information from LOSSAN. Table 9.2 on page 3 of Attachment C gives the per car prices for the new bi-levels.

Coach: $2.7 million

Cab: $2.9 million

Café: $2.9 million

There are other nuggets of information in the LOSSAN board meeting attachments. After a paragraph discussing using Prop 1B funds to buy 15 locomotives to replace the Amtrak owned F59-PHI locomotives, it goes on:

In addition, LOSSAN staff will continue to work with Caltrans and the California State Transportation Agency to explore opportunities to improve cost efficiency related to the existing lease of Amtrak-owned railcars to support the Pacific Surfliner service. Options being discussed include the purchase of the 39 bi-level railcars currently owned and operated by Amtrak for the Pacific Surfliner service, or purchase of additional bi-level Nippon Sharyo railcars to replace all or a portion of the 39 Amtrak-owned Pacific Surfliner railcars, while also providing sufficient equipment capacity to support projected future service needs for the Pacific Surfliner, as well as emerging corridors like the Coast Daylight, enhanced Santa Barbara to Ventura service, and Coachella Valley service.

The California agencies are clearly seeking to own all of the rolling stock so they have control over it. If they have the money, LOSSAN might decide to buy 39 additional Nippon-Sharyo bi-levels to have a more uniform and younger fleet mix. Amtrak could end up with 39 Surfliners that they could move to the LD trains or offer as starter equipment for new corridor services in the Midwest and in Texas.

 

[neroden]

In addition, LOSSAN staff will continue to work with Caltrans and the California State Transportation Agency to explore opportunities to improve cost efficiency related to the existing lease of Amtrak-owned railcars to support the Pacific Surfliner service. Options being discussed include the purchase of the 39 bi-level railcars currently owned and operated by Amtrak for the Pacific Surfliner service, or purchase of additional bi-level Nippon Sharyo railcars to replace all or a portion of the 39 Amtrak-owned Pacific Surfliner railcars,

Oooh, good catch, afigg.
Either way this is good.

* If California purchases additional new cars, the Amtrak-owned Surfliner cars will immediately be transferred to other Amtrak lines. Some would probably run on the Heartland Flyer immediately. Some might be used as spares in the Midwest (which seems to be ordering *barely* enough cars for its services). Others would probably be retrofitted (with wider seat pitch) and used to lengthen some of the trains on "long-distance" routes. Or they might be used for new startup service (Minnesota might want them for the proposed St. Paul-Chicago second frequency, for instance).

* If California buys the 39 cars out from Amtrak, Amtrak gets a cash injection of, perhaps, ~$39 million. After the leases are bought out, the remainder can go directly to buying new Viewliners (or whatever, but I'm guessing Viewliners are the best bang for Amtrak's buck).

 

[Paulus]

There are two emerging corridors in California that would run out of LA and likely use most of them (Coachella and Daylight), assuming agreements and whatnot might ever be made.

 

[battalion51]

The Heartland Flyer and Hiawathas come to mind immediately as two services that would be good candidates to take on Surfliner equipment if re-deployed. In spite of the challenges with the State of Indiana, the Hoosier state would be another good choice. The challenge though is between those three services it'd only require four sets of equipment to completely replace the existing Horizons/Superliners in place. You could deploy some to local coach services provided on the Builder and Eagle. Inevitably some would probably be retrofitted to make them more of a LD car than a short haul.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Missouri River Runners would also be good candidates for these cars to replace the Horizons which are no-ones favorite equipment!(But keep the 2x1 Seating Biz Class/ Cafe Cars!)