Speed restrictions?

[Grandma B]

The Silver Meteor running from NYP to WPB, are there any MPH restrictions along this route? Our neighbor says these trains run in excess of over 100 mph on open stretches. I've tried doing a search on the Internet and everything I read states 79 mph.

 

[Guest]

There are no areas outside of the NEC in the U.S. where trains exceed 90 mph...

 

[AlanB]

You won't go faster than 79 MPH south of Washington DC. North of DC you should see speeds at times approaching 100 to 110 MPH.

Trains are not allowed to run faster than 79 MPH, because the rules written by the FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) state that in order to go 80 MPH, you have to have Positive Train Control (PTC). PTC means that if the engineer runs a red signal, that the onboard computer automatically stops the train.

This type of system also requires special equipment alongside the tracks, and outside of the Boston-NY-DC corridor, most tracks don't have that specialized equipment. So trains can't run faster than 79 MPH. There are a few execptions outside of the corridor, but you won't see any of those exceptions on your journey.

 

[Grandma B]

You won't go faster than 79 MPH south of Washington DC.

Thanks for the information Alan. I feel better knowing that we're not "speeding"! :lol:

 

[battalion51]

There are some areas that have systems like Cab Signaling in place, but the tracks are not able to host trains above 79 MPH. For example, the RF&P Subdivision (on CSX) between Washington and Richmond has cab signaling in place, but trains have a MSP (Maximum Speed Permitted) of 70. Cab Signaling is in place between New Haven and Springfield MSP 79 MPH, Boston and Albany 60 MPH, New York-west of Schenectady MSP 110 MPH, isolated places in Michigan MSP 100 MPH.

 

[amtrak_russ]

Michigan will be pushing 110 this year.

 

[MrFSS]

This is a picture I took of my GPS screen on a local Illinois train a few days ago. At one time it hit 82MPH.

 

[George Harris]

In times past, a lot of railroad companies were a little more relaxed about enforcing their own speed limits, particularly on lines that had at one been faster but were forced to slow down the ICC (now FRA) signal rule.

Higher speed limits did also exist on a lot of railroads in teh past. At one time the former ACL did have a 100 mph speed limit for a goodly distance north of Jacksonville, but that was reduced to 90 mph, and later to 79 mph after the ATC equipment was removed. Likewise, the ICRR had 100 mph allowed in certain parts of Illlinois. However, the City of New Orleans was well know for going above the 79 mph limit prevailing south of this segment through the 1960's at least. The former Burlington Rock Island Joint Texas Division had no signals at all in the late 1940's, but allowed the Twin Star Rocket and Sam Houston Zypher 90 mph. The line is now 40 mph for anything.

The current legal (lawsuit happy) environment and government regulation situation have brought these practices to a halt. Now, if a train exeeds 79 mph it is likely to be to no more than to about 80 or 81 due to slow correction for downgrade or spedometer error.

 

[battalion51]

This is a picture I took of my GPS screen on a local Illinois train a few days ago. At one time it hit 82MPH.

Many times just because of running conditions the speedometer will bounce back and forth between 79 and 80. If you get a train on a down hill and the Engineer is still trying to adjust throttle speed to match the grade you'll get up to 81 or 82. Most stick to 79/80 pretty well because you never know where the boss man or FRA is going to be waiting to throw down radar on you.

 

[gswager]

That happens to Southwest Chief, hitting 90 mph on some areas. Sadly, the condition of tracks discontinue the 90 mph on some areas, also amount of freight traffic to keep the traffic fluid.

 

[Mark]

There are no areas outside of the NEC in the U.S. where trains exceed 90 mph...

Not from what I've heard/read. The Wolverines are doing 95 on the Amtrak owned stretch in Michigan due to the implementation of ITCS. I also read that they will be approved for 105 mph in the next couple of months.

Does the Lake Shore Limited, (or Empire Service Trains), get above 79 between Albany and NYC? I thought this was faster territory.

 

[AlanB]

Does the Lake Shore Limited, (or Empire Service Trains), get above 79 between Albany and NYC? I thought this was faster territory.

Yes there are some streches where it can hit 90 between ALB and Poughkeepsie. All Empire corridor trains hit that speed for certain streches.

 

[wkaemena]

You won't go faster than 79 MPH south of Washington DC. North of DC you should see speeds at times approaching 100 to 110 MPH.
Trains are not allowed to run faster than 79 MPH, because the rules written by the FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) state that in order to go 80 MPH, you have to have Positive Train Control (PTC). PTC means that if the engineer runs a red signal, that the onboard computer automatically stops the train.

This type of system also requires special equipment alongside the tracks, and outside of the Boston-NY-DC corridor, most tracks don't have that specialized equipment. So trains can't run faster than 79 MPH. There are a few execptions outside of the corridor, but you won't see any of those exceptions on your journey.

That means outside of NEC there is no device stopping a train automatically when passing a red signal??????? In Germany we have INDUSI which was introduced already back in the 1920th stopping the train even before it reaches the read signal.

 

[PerRock]

There are no areas outside of the NEC in the U.S. where trains exceed 90 mph...

Not from what I've heard/read. The Wolverines are doing 95 on the Amtrak owned stretch in Michigan due to the implementation of ITCS. I also read that they will be approved for 105 mph in the next couple of months.

Quite true. I was on the wolverine a couple weeks ago and turned out to be on the first train allowed to run at 90mph. The conductor said that in the coming weeks that they will get up to around 100 mph. The cool thing about being on that trip was that the conductor came onto the train-wide PA to announce that we would be the first to travel at that speed there. the stretch is between Kalamazoo and Hammond-Whitting (If my memory serves me we didn't actually get up to speed until after Niles, MI and it seemed like we dropped back down near Michigan City)

peter

 

[AmtrakWPK]

While we've been talking mostly about normal maximum-speed conditions so far, it is also undoubtedly true that there will be a number of slow speed restrictions on your trip, as you pass through areas where track repair and maintenance work is being done, either pre-planned or on an emergency basis, where a track inspector may have found a track segment with a defect and therefore placed a temporary speed restriction on that section until it can be repaired. Also, as a result of the Auto-Train wreck in Florida a number of years ago, when the ambient temperature rises about a pre-determined value, all CSX track comes under an additional blanket speed restriction.

 

[battalion51]

That means outside of NEC there is no device stopping a train automatically when passing a red signal??????? In Germany we have INDUSI which was introduced already back in the 1920th stopping the train even before it reaches the read signal.

In very few areas outside the NEC there are Blocking devices to prevent passing a red signal. If a train does pass a red signal the Dispatcher's console will go insane, and that Dispatcher will be talking to that train in a matter of moments to prevent an accident. There are very few cases of a train passing a red signal, and even fewer that have resulted in accidents, but they do happen. Engineers that pass red signals spend some quality time on the street, if they are not terminated. I believe at minimum you spend 30 days on the street for passing a red signal or exceeding the limits of a Track Warrant in non-signalled territory.

Yes there are some streches where it can hit 90 between ALB and Poughkeepsie. All Empire corridor trains hit that speed for certain streches.

A fair amount of the mileage south of CP125 is 90 MPH track with some stretches of 95 between CP 75 and CP 89. From CP 125 to CP 141 it's 110 the whole way (Albany station is at CP 142). There is also some 110 for about 7 miles south of CP 156 and about 8 miles of 100 south of CP 169.

 

[George Harris]

That means outside of NEC there is no device stopping a train automatically when passing a red signal??????? In Germany we have INDUSI which was introduced already back in the 1920th stopping the train even before it reaches the read signal.

The technology has been available and used in the US for at least that long also. It simply is not required unless you want to run trains at speeds of 80 mph or faster. Since it is not required and is fairly expensive to apply and maintain, it is also not used except where needed. Actually, the automatic stopping function is not required, either. Cab signals may be used instead of the automatic stopping function to permit the 80 ph or faster operation.

I think a lot of the difference is as much cultural as anything. It even goes to the terminology. In the US the person running the train is titled "Engineer" In Europe he is titled a "Driver" In general, it appears that the European mentality is that the train driver will not do what he is supposed to unless he is continuously monitored. In the US the engineer is expected to act with sufficient professionalism that he will do what is right and safe with only spot checks on his performance.

There are still large segments of the US railroad system with no signals at all, and a couple still carry passenger trains. For these sections, the miximum speed allowed by regulation is "less than 60 mph" for passenger trains and "less than 50 mph" for freight trains. That is why you will see sections of line with speed limits quoted as 59P/49F.

George

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In times past, a lot of railroad companies were a little more relaxed about enforcing their own speed limits, particularly on lines that had at one been faster but were forced to slow down the ICC (now FRA) signal rule.
Higher speed limits did also exist on a lot of railroads in teh past. At one time the former ACL did have a 100 mph speed limit for a goodly distance north of Jacksonville, but that was reduced to 90 mph, and later to 79 mph after the ATC equipment was removed. Likewise, the ICRR had 100 mph allowed in certain parts of Illlinois. However, the City of New Orleans was well know for going above the 79 mph limit prevailing south of this segment through the 1960's at least. The former Burlington Rock Island Joint Texas Division had no signals at all in the late 1940's, but allowed the Twin Star Rocket and Sam Houston Zypher 90 mph. The line is now 40 mph for anything.

The current legal (lawsuit happy) environment and government regulation situation have brought these practices to a halt. Now, if a train exeeds 79 mph it is likely to be to no more than to about 80 or 81 due to slow correction for downgrade or spedometer error.

Then too, the Twin CIty Zephyr route must have had some top-notch high speed. Since that train won the "speed survey" by Don Steffee in TRAINS Magazine for several years.

There were two smaller town in Illinois, somewhere between Chcago and the Twin Cities, where it made an average of 80 plus mph. Must have gone way over that for it's top speed though I never actually heard what its top speed was. Of course maybe the terrain was extremely flat and straight and maybe it ran consistently fast without many obstacles.(which could mean its top speed was not too much greater than 81 or 82 or whatever it was. -

I remember at least one year the City of New Orleans won the title.

 

[George Harris]

Then too, the Twin CIty Zephyr route must have had some top-notch high speed. Since that train won the "speed survey" by Don Steffee in TRAINS Magazine for several years.
There were two smaller town in Illinois, somewhere between Chcago and the Twin Cities, where it made an average of 80 plus mph. Must have gone way over that for it's top speed though I never actually heard what its top speed was. Of course maybe the terrain was extremely flat and straight and maybe it ran consistently fast without many obstacles.(which could mean its top speed was not too much greater than 81 or 82 or whatever it was. -

I remember at least one year the City of New Orleans won the title.

I am pretty sure that this CB&Q line had a limit of 90mph or more and was equipped wit ATS at that time, so it was legal.

 

[WICT106]

In times past, a lot of railroad companies were a little more relaxed about enforcing their own speed limits, particularly on lines that had at one been faster but were forced to slow down the ICC (now FRA) signal rule.

Higher speed limits did also exist on a lot of railroads in teh past. At one time the former ACL did have a 100 mph speed limit for a goodly distance north of Jacksonville, but that was reduced to 90 mph, and later to 79 mph after the ATC equipment was removed. Likewise, the ICRR had 100 mph allowed in certain parts of Illlinois. However, the City of New Orleans was well know for going above the 79 mph limit prevailing south of this segment through the 1960's at least. The former Burlington Rock Island Joint Texas Division had no signals at all in the late 1940's, but allowed the Twin Star Rocket and Sam Houston Zypher 90 mph. The line is now 40 mph for anything.

The current legal (lawsuit happy) environment and government regulation situation have brought these practices to a halt. Now, if a train exeeds 79 mph it is likely to be to no more than to about 80 or 81 due to slow correction for downgrade or spedometer error.

Then too, the Twin CIty Zephyr route must have had some top-notch high speed. Since that train won the "speed survey" by Don Steffee in TRAINS Magazine for several years.

There were two smaller town in Illinois, somewhere between Chcago and the Twin Cities, where it made an average of 80 plus mph. Must have gone way over that for it's top speed though I never actually heard what its top speed was. Of course maybe the terrain was extremely flat and straight and maybe it ran consistently fast without many obstacles.(which could mean its top speed was not too much greater than 81 or 82 or whatever it was. -

I remember at least one year the City of New Orleans won the title.

The Twin Cities Zypher had an average speed of 84 mph between La Crosse and Prairie du Chien, WI. This stretch of its' itinerary was along the Mississippi River. I suspect that between Prairie du Chien and Dubuque, IA, and north of La Crosse, the average speeds were close to this as well.

 

[Grandma B]

While we've been talking mostly about normal maximum-speed conditions so far, it is also undoubtedly true that there will be a number of slow speed restrictions on your trip, as you pass through areas where track repair and maintenance work is being done, either pre-planned or on an emergency basis, where a track inspector may have found a track segment with a defect and therefore placed a temporary speed restriction on that section until it can be repaired. Also, as a result of the Auto-Train wreck in Florida a number of years ago, when the ambient temperature rises about a pre-determined value, all CSX track comes under an additional blanket speed restriction.

To say the least, it's been quite interesting reading all the posts. On my last Amtrak trip from NYP to ROC, it sure felt like there were sections west of Albany that the Engineer had the "pedal to the metal"! There were times when he blew the horn, I was hoping that nothing was crossing the tracks in front of him. Thank you for reassuring me that we won't be speeding along the tracks to Florida.

 

[battalion51]

The Engineers are required by law to blow the horn at all at grade crossings. The law calls for two long blasts, a short blast, and a long blast on the horn until the engine protects the crossing. There are very few areas that have "whistle bans" meaning the grade crossings are protected in a manner such that the Engineer doesn't need to blow the horn. A large part of the line, if not the entire line, between New York and Albany is grade seperated meaning there are no crossings, so the horn isn't used that often. In these areas the Engineer will only use the horn if there is a trespasser in the area, he is approaching a station, or if it's a spot that notoriously has trespassers on the right of way.

 

[Grandma B]

The Engineers are required by law to blow the horn at all at grade crossings. The law calls for two long blasts, a short blast, and a long blast on the horn until the engine protects the crossing. There are very few areas that have "whistle bans" meaning the grade crossings are protected in a manner such that the Engineer doesn't need to blow the horn. A large part of the line, if not the entire line, between New York and Albany is grade seperated meaning there are no crossings, so the horn isn't used that often. In these areas the Engineer will only use the horn if there is a trespasser in the area, he is approaching a station, or if it's a spot that notoriously has trespassers on the right of way.

Thank you for this helpful information.