St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Interesting, Moselman! I am now wondering if they are holding up until close to the departure times of both trains (especially the MSP-CHI train which leaves roughly an hour after you posted). But as others have said, I am certain they will add another car if needed. How much rigamarole with Amtrak is it to add another passenger car for limited periods of time, say at major holidays and travel weekends should the Borealis be consistently sold out at those times?

Adding a car is probably not free?

Funding the Borealis took some effort at the state level, finally aided by the IIJA. The article says the FRA is chipping in $13m in one-time operating costs, and the capital costs were: Minn. $13m, Wisc. $10m, Amtrak $5m, and FRA $34m.

Gov. Evers of Wisconsin had his 2023-25 $3.5m request to the state legislature reduced to $971k, at one point.

Apparently some of the federal capital spending "will reduce the (Wisconsin) payment to Amtrak to an estimated $135,000 for the first year."

The first link above, from the Twin Cities Pioneer Press (was St. Paul, they've renamed it!), via MSN, has this quote from an Amtrak official seemingly singling out Minnesota, but that may just be the context of the Pioneer Press asking:

Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said some states have offered to lease or buy rights to more modern train cars such as the Siemens Venture or the even newer Siemens Airo, which offer low-level platform boarding — a benefit for the disabled — as well as other modern amenities.

That would require additional investment from the state of Minnesota, which effectively leases the Horizon cars from Amtrak. “There’s no immediate plans to replace these cars with the Venture cars,” Magliari said Tuesday.

It's such peanuts, but there it is.

 

[user535733]

I would imagine that the sponsoring state(s) would monitor the demand level and either add cars to the existing trains or add a new train to meet the demand, whatever works the best.

This is accurate for Hiawatha. WisDOT told WisARP in early 2024 (pre-Borealis) that Amtrak provides per-train, per-day ridership on Hiawatha. Then it's up to WisDOT to ping Amtrak about adjusting trainset sizes. They exercised this muscle twice since Covid: To grow the trainsets from 3 to 4 coaches, then again to grow the trainsets from 4 to 5 coaches. We have not re-asked the question about Borealis.

 

[railiner]

I am wondering if WisDOT would ever consider (funding) for extending Metra trains from Kenosha into Milwaukee?

Here's current service...

https://metra.com/sites/default/files/metra_50933_fm10_tt_proof_1.pdf

 

[BlackDiamond]

I am wondering if WisDOT would ever consider (funding) for extending Metra trains from Kenosha into Milwaukee?

Here's current service...

https://metra.com/sites/default/files/metra_50933_fm10_tt_proof_1.pdf

I see one problem with that is the line used by Metra if extended via Racine has no easy way to get to the Amtrak Milwaukee station from what I see on OpenRailwayMap. The only connection seems to be via an industrial track. Plus that would be a long trip in commuter cars.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I believe that both Metra extension and Milwaukee based commuter rail (along with a private proposal a few years ago to the western suburbs) has been floating, but nothing concrete afaict/afaik.

I think there is a gradual push for more Hiawatha service along with potential extensions north to Green Bay.

 

[moselman66]

Interesting, Moselman! I am now wondering if they are holding up until close to the departure times of both trains (especially the MSP-CHI train which leaves roughly an hour after you posted). But as others have said, I am certain they will add another car if needed. How much rigamarole with Amtrak is it to add another passenger car for limited periods of time, say at major holidays and travel weekends should the Borealis be consistently sold out at those times?

For what it's worth (and what is the internet for if not over-examinine things?) we have a similar situation today with northbound where CHI-(MKE)-MSP is available for sale of up to 5 tickets but CHI-MKE local on Borealis is sold out. Today it remains sold out for CHI-MKE customers but not for CHI-(MKE)-MSP even 20 minutes before departure. So whatever seats they have left (5) to depart Chicago they are not released for anybody just traveling CHI-MKE to purchase.

Perhaps they are blocking seats for upline beyond-MKE customers and there is no "last minute release to anybody", and the reason yesterday CHI-MKE went from sold out to available was the result of some CHI-MKE passengers canceling or switching to a different train, opening up some local CHI-MKE seats.

The whole fare-bucket issue on a longer segment is interesting and kind of mysterious. The available CHI-MSP fares for today's Borealis are $179 (what appears to be the top fare bucket) and that makes some sense given that there are apparently only 5 only seats on the entire train leaving CHI this morning. But beyond MKE where the train is undoubtedly somewhat less full the MKE-MSP fare today is only $82. If one had the time to spare they could have taken the 8:25 CHI-MKE and then picked up Borealis in MKE to MSP and saved $66. Amtrak's website will sell you CHI-MSP connections via Milwaukee -- the Hiawatha CHI-MKE and then a bus MKE-MSP. It would not be a bad idea for them to also sell a similar connections to MSP which are all rail -- CHI-MKE Hiawatha and then Borealis MKE-MSP. Especially in situations like this where the CHI-MKE segment has constraints this would be another option -- in this case cheaper -- to get people onto Borealis into MSP.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Yes the operation pattern/plan has some defects. However we have additional train between Chicago and Twin Cities. So job well done to those involved. Pop a cold one in a cerebration that you deserve. Next week we going to have to work on some of these defects.

 

[railiner]

I see one problem with that is the line used by Metra if extended via Racine has no easy way to get to the Amtrak Milwaukee station from what I see on OpenRailwayMap. The only connection seems to be via an industrial track. Plus that would be a long trip in commuter cars.

IIRC, just prior to Amtrak, North Western shared the station with MILW, which was one of the last stations built prior to Amtrak. Perhaps they removed tracks that made that easier back then?
There are other commuter trains that go even further, and lower fares would attract budget riders…

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Yes the operation pattern/plan has some defects. However we have additional train between Chicago and Twin Cities. So job well done to those involved. Pop a cold one in a cerebration that you deserve. Next week we going to have to work on some of these defects.

The HSRA has a greatly positive take on it: https://www.hsrail.org/blog/heres-why-amtraks-new-borealis-train-matters/

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Looks like that spur would need some rebuilding, double-tracking, a new swing bridge and such, but mostly grade separated at least.

I was just looking up the station, hadn't realized that it was 18th busiest in the network (and number 2 in the Midwest). Wonder how much ridership, overall, will go up.

 

[TRA_Thom]

https://youtu.be/5ddHn0FTKR4?si=V6oy1RrtZu25QJjp



Attached you will find a video report of my trip on the Borealis, but I’ll share some notes here as well.



I took the 1333 on Thursday, the 24th. I was happy to see how busy it was. A lot of my fellow passengers were pretty chatty, so I quickly learned that most people were actually using the train for business or other travel needs, not just as enthusiasts like myself.



I’m not a fan of the Amtrak boarding process to begin with, but for the Borealis at CUS it was a nightmare. I got there half an hour early and the line already stretched into the main hall. The north lounge really is too small. Particularly the passengers destined for the Milwaukee cars were acting the most maniacal: pushing, shoving, ducking under the gates to cut in line. Passengers for points beyond were more cordial in general.



In MKE we dropped off 100 passengers but we also picked up 50. 20 more got on in Columbus, where I got off. The train stopped in MKE for exactly 10 minutes, for the crew change. What I found interesting was that they never put up the cards like they do on most other routes. The new crew actually came through and rescan every single ticket. (Neither crew scanned my ticket on the 1340 back).



The cafe was nothing to write home about. I bought a can of iced caribou coffee to bring back for my wife, but personally my idea of enjoying a regional delicacy was walking over to Culver’s once I got off in Columbus.



The 1340 took the through tracks in Chicago and arrived at the southern platforms.



Overall, I was impressed with the ridership. Amtrak certainly had gotten the news out, and asking around town people were all very excited. Everyone I spoke to had plans to try it out soon. They might need that fifth car sooner than they think.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Attached you will find a video report of my trip on the Borealis, but I’ll share some notes here as well

Thom thanks for your video, I watched it last night.

I agree the Amtrak "airline style" boarding procedure is a pain. At least the airlines usually carry it off in a more organized fashion. Boarding a train should be simple like it used to be - you go to the platform, train arrives, you get on. As it is in most places outside North America.

Not sure I see the attraction of cheese curds. Up in Maine they put them on Poutine a French Canadian influenced dish made from fries, gravy and cheese curds. Not my favorite. But I suppose it is an acquired taste or something one grows up with. (Ducks virtual rotten tomatoes from Midwesterners on the board )

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Attached you will find a video report of my trip on the Borealis, but I’ll share some notes here as well.



I took the 1333 on Thursday, the 24th. I was happy to see how busy it was. A lot of my fellow passengers were pretty chatty, so I quickly learned that most people were actually using the train for business or other travel needs, not just as enthusiasts like myself.



I’m not a fan of the Amtrak boarding process to begin with, but for the Borealis at CUS it was a nightmare. I got there half an hour early and the line already stretched into the main hall. The north lounge really is too small. Particularly the passengers destined for the Milwaukee cars were acting the most maniacal: pushing, shoving, ducking under the gates to cut in line. Passengers for points beyond were more cordial in general.



In MKE we dropped off 100 passengers but we also picked up 50. 20 more got on in Columbus, where I got off. The train stopped in MKE for exactly 10 minutes, for the crew change. What I found interesting was that they never put up the cards like they do on most other routes. The new crew actually came through and rescan every single ticket. (Neither crew scanned my ticket on the 1340 back).



The cafe was nothing to write home about. I bought a can of iced caribou coffee to bring back for my wife, but personally my idea of enjoying a regional delicacy was walking over to Culver’s once I got off in Columbus.



The 1340 took the through tracks in Chicago and arrived at the southern platforms.



Overall, I was impressed with the ridership. Amtrak certainly had gotten the news out, and asking around town people were all very excited. Everyone I spoke to had plans to try it out soon. They might need that fifth car sooner than they think.

Nice work, Thom.

I'm glad I'll be able to use a lounge passon Tuesday for my return trip. I would always gladly pay the price of a pass to avoid CUS queues.

 

[TRA_Thom]

Thom thanks for your video, I watched it last night.

I agree the Amtrak "airline style" boarding procedure is a pain. At least the airlines usually carry it off in a more organized fashion. Boarding a train should be simple like it used to be - you go to the platform, train arrives, you get on. As it is in most places outside North America.

Not sure I see the attraction of cheese curds. Up in Maine they put them on Poutine a French Canadian influenced dish made from fries, gravy and cheese curds. Not my favorite. But I suppose it is an acquired taste or something one grows up with. (Ducks virtual rotten tomatoes from Midwesterners on the board )

As a Dutch person myself, I am already quite selective about the American cheeses I choose to consume. But my previous home and my current home in the US are united in a love for all things deep-fried, so I am always happy to partake in enjoying such local delicacies.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Not sure I see the attraction of cheese curds. Up in Maine they put them on Poutine a French Canadian influenced dish made from fries, gravy and cheese curds. Not my favorite. But I suppose it is an acquired taste or something one grows up with. (Ducks virtual rotten tomatoes from Midwesterners on the board )

Don't know whether this was my family or Chicago in general, but I don't remember them being a 'think' until adulthood and something that migrated in from Wisconsin. The Midwest is a big place with a lot of regionalisms.

 

[WWW]

Nice work, Thom.

I'm glad I'll be able to use a lounge passon Tuesday for my return trip. I would always gladly pay the price of a pass to avoid CUS queues.

MSP Metropolitan Lounge as spartan as they get is posted also for use of Business class passengers -
However the gate (male) dragon will not permit entry without seeing a the digital or paper boarding pass !
Otherwise unattended entrance appear to be via digital key pad (ask at ticket counter).
ML at MSP - no restroom within - bottled water only no snacks - as far from the gate boarding as one can get !
Only boarding announcements made by dragon - Lounge closes immediately after that.
Capacity at best 20 passengers (unlikely to happen).
Room size approximately 15x40'
While visiting the 24th of May a person was measuring the room for renovation/upgrading of an unknown nature.

 

[WWW]

Synopsis Amtrak Borealis 1340 MSP to WIN 24th May
Train left 11:56 6 minutes late
Boarding lines some 70 folks long
Business and handicap passengers were allowed to board first a + for me
No assigned seating - first come first serve
Business class booked to 15 seats
Some window seats blocked by curtains or bulkhead piers
Train parked overnight on adjacent siding (261 Northpole for those familiar with it)
Crew seem a bit disorientated - train could have been at platform a lot earlier
Consist of push-pull sequence L B/Cafe C C C C L
Train does not WYE overnight
Business class car not in quiet zone behind lead locomotive with train HORN !
Alternatively Business car at rear of train for next day trip
15 Business class seats 5 singles and 5 doubles
Seats reverse for return trip - lever on side of seat rotates the seat
had to wait for cabin attendant to turn the seats to face forward
Tickets digital/paper scanned
Cabin/Cafe attendant made announcement in Business car that the Cafe is
open now for BC passengers and later when the coach passengers have
access he would take every other B/C/B/C alternately
1 complimentary soft drink per person (not unlimited ? did not ask )
Horizon cars old comfortable some seats (recline) features not working
seat pitch spacing just a bit better than airline coach
Did not venture into the Coach section.
Boarding business class through adjacent coach car vestibule
Arriving at Winona had to walk though 2 coach cars to exit
arrival 16 minutes late
Did not park on the markers set up for the EB long walk on platform

More later on the return trip 1333

 

[Amtrak25]

Interesting, Moselman! I am now wondering if they are holding up until close to the departure times of both trains (especially the MSP-CHI train which leaves roughly an hour after you posted). But as others have said, I am certain they will add another car if needed. How much rigamarole with Amtrak is it to add another passenger car for limited periods of time, say at major holidays and travel weekends should the Borealis be consistently sold out at those times?

It is not a question of a net add. With the Borealis replacing a Hiawatha, capacity between Chicago and Milwukee has been cut 3% because the Hiawatha sets have 5 coaches and the Borealis has 4. So there are 34 coach lines per day, not 35.

Pre-Covid, the Hiawathas had 6 coaches now down to 5, a 17% cut in capacity.

Now we have the inefficiency of three 5-car Hiawatha sets making a total of 6 round trips per day whereas pre-Borealis, there were just two sets making 7 round trips per day. Had they run a "J" train between Chicago and Milwaukee for 333/1333 and 340/1340, they could eliminate a Hiawatha set of 5 cars, reverting back to their former rotation, and hand the Borealis sets one coach each, having 3 left over. Not likely to happen since Horizon cars are now migrating to Downeaster service, pulled out of Beech Grove. There are 4 of them there right now.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Onboard 1340 in BC now. Only four empty seats out of MSP. Coach was at least a third full, too. It's worth mentioning BC fares include lounge access in St. Paul.

 

[west point]

Is the limitation of more trains MKE <> CHI until the second platform at the airport is complete a hard and fast rule? It would seem that combining 333 & 1333 northbound would not be a problem. Now if 1340 combining with 340 would make 340 more than 30 minutes late leaving MKE then could 1340 occasionally be run separately before the platform is complete? A spare reserve MKE crew could be called.

With only at present the east platform a late southbound 1340 does cause problems as many persons north of MKE could need to take an airplane.

 

[Septa9739]

I don’t know if @TRA_Thom would be able to confirm this, or @Steve's Wanderlust might be able to watch for it, but Thom’s video suggested 1333 put a hundred off at MKE and boarded 50 new. That phenomenon might suggest that maybe the presumption we all (or at least I don’t remember reading an argument for this) have been laboring under (that boardings at MKE would not be on parity with alightings) may not be exactly true. If say, Thom’s train left CHI with coach 90% full (about 288 seats, about 260 taken) a hundred get off (now 160 aboard) fifty board (now 210 aboard), that load still requires 3 coaches, and I don’t think anyone would lament that little extra space, especially when you remember Thom’s note that 7 alighted (203 aboard) at Columbus and about 20 boarded (223 aboard). That would require 4 coaches. Consider then that most of the intermediate stations have a two to one ridership split between CHI and MSP (extrapolated from RPA stats), which is likely affected by the poor hours of service at MSP. The more I think about it, rough parity on both sides of MKE may be possible. It also sounds like the train might need a fifth coach sooner than later.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

I don’t know if @TRA_Thom would be able to confirm this, or @Steve's Wanderlust might be able to watch for it, but Thom’s video suggested 1333 put a hundred off at MKE and boarded 50 new. That phenomenon might suggest that maybe the presumption we all (or at least I don’t remember reading an argument for this) have been laboring under (that boardings at MKE would not be on parity with alightings) may not be exactly true. If say, Thom’s train left CHI with coach 90% full (about 288 seats, about 260 taken) a hundred get off (now 160 aboard) fifty board (now 210 aboard), that load still requires 3 coaches, and I don’t think anyone would lament that little extra space, especially when you remember Thom’s note that 7 alighted (203 aboard) at Columbus and about 20 boarded (223 aboard). That would require 4 coaches. Consider then that most of the intermediate stations have a two to one ridership split between CHI and MSP (extrapolated from RPA stats), which is likely affected by the poor hours of service at MSP. The more I think about it, rough parity on both sides of MKE may be possible. It also sounds like the train might need a fifth coach sooner than later.

I'll keep an eye on the coaches and report back departing MKE. Currently dwelling at Winona for a smoke stop. About a dozen off here and a couple on.

Coach 2 remains 70% full, 3 less than half, 4 a third and 1 has only a handful. BC still has only 5 open seats, none having yet departed that got on at MSP.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Update approaching MKE, 111 boarding there today, according to the crew with whom I am sharing the cafe end of the BC car. Their statement suggested the train's passenger count would double at that point. Based on the relatively short length of station work in MKE, I doubt the number alighting there was very great.

La Crosse: 10 off, same on.
Tomah: 8 off, 6 on.
Dells: 12 off, 8 on.
Portage: A handful off, same on.
Columbus: 10 off, same on.

And I learned our cafe car attendant served Youtuber Jeb Brooks while working the CZ!

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Today's 1333 is about half full to MKE, crew announcement states many are alighting there today and few are getting on there. BC leaves CUS with only 4 unsold seats.

 

[OmahaRoad]

http://hizeph400.blogspot.com/2024/05/congestion-point-columbus-wi.html

Interesting look at a chokepoint near Columbus, WI on the Borealis/EB route; this explains to me why there's been some unevenness in OTP so far.