Sunset Early Arrival

[George Harris]

Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
We had a sleeper WAS-NOL-LAX. We arrived NOL in the evening where our sleeper was set-out. The LAX

segment didn't leave until about 1 p.m. the next day. This gave us a chance to do the French Quarter thingy for

dinner, etc,. which got us back late to our sleeper car. We slept-in since we didn't have to worry about

missing our train.

I don't recall what the sked was for the E/B.

About the same or later arrival time, and very likely later than scheduled, as the Sunset has never been the posterchild for keeping schedule. The eastbound out of New Orleans also left fairly early in the morning.

Another thing: This was when the Crescent was still operated by Southern Railway, not by Amtrak.

The practice is no longer practical as the Crescent is single level and the Sunset is Superliner.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
We had a sleeper WAS-NOL-LAX. We arrived NOL in the evening where our sleeper was set-out. The LAX

segment didn't leave until about 1 p.m. the next day. This gave us a chance to do the French Quarter thingy for

dinner, etc,. which got us back late to our sleeper car. We slept-in since we didn't have to worry about

missing our train.

I don't recall what the sked was for the E/B.

About the same or later arrival time, and very likely later than scheduled, as the Sunset has never been the posterchild for keeping schedule. The eastbound out of New Orleans also left fairly early in the morning.

Another thing: This was when the Crescent was still operated by Southern Railway, not by Amtrak.

The practice is no longer practical as the Crescent is single level and the Sunset is Superliner.

As I just noted in another post, Amtrak brought the Trans/Dorms for exactly this reason. Yes, they've rarely used them as intended and in fact for years didn't even sell the passenger rooms in the dorms to passengers, but the Trans/Dorm would permit Amtrak to do a set out Viewliner sleeper in NOL to be hooked onto the Sunset.

Right now of course the bigger problem is that Amtrak doesn't have enough Viewliners to do such a thing.

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
We had a sleeper WAS-NOL-LAX. We arrived NOL in the evening where our sleeper was set-out. The LAX

segment didn't leave until about 1 p.m. the next day. This gave us a chance to do the French Quarter thingy for

dinner, etc,. which got us back late to our sleeper car. We slept-in since we didn't have to worry about

missing our train.

I don't recall what the sked was for the E/B.

About the same or later arrival time, and very likely later than scheduled, as the Sunset has never been the posterchild for keeping schedule. The eastbound out of New Orleans also left fairly early in the morning.

Another thing: This was when the Crescent was still operated by Southern Railway, not by Amtrak.

The practice is no longer practical as the Crescent is single level and the Sunset is Superliner.

As I just noted in another post, Amtrak brought the Trans/Dorms for exactly this reason. Yes, they've rarely used them as intended and in fact for years didn't even sell the passenger rooms in the dorms to passengers, but the Trans/Dorm would permit Amtrak to do a set out Viewliner sleeper in NOL to be hooked onto the Sunset.

Right now of course the bigger problem is that Amtrak doesn't have enough Viewliners to do such a thing.

If I'm being a mix of realistic and optimistic, my hope would be that (seeing as a dedicated Superliner sleeper order seems unlikely while it looks like Amtrak may have plenty of Superliner coaches to go around) Amtrak would be able to round up the cash to buy a lot of Viewliner sleepers and shift to split consists on the TE/SL a la Santa Fe (i.e. single-level sleepers and bilevel coaches) so it could move most of the Superliner sleepers to trains where the revenue potentials are far higher.

 

[GoldenSpike]

Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
We had a sleeper WAS-NOL-LAX. We arrived NOL in the evening where our sleeper was set-out. The LAX

segment didn't leave until about 1 p.m. the next day. This gave us a chance to do the French Quarter thingy for

dinner, etc,. which got us back late to our sleeper car. We slept-in since we didn't have to worry about

missing our train.

I don't recall what the sked was for the E/B.

About the same or later arrival time, and very likely later than scheduled, as the Sunset has never been the posterchild for keeping schedule. The eastbound out of New Orleans also left fairly early in the morning.

Another thing: This was when the Crescent was still operated by Southern Railway, not by Amtrak.

The practice is no longer practical as the Crescent is single level and the Sunset is Superliner.

A blast from the past! Thanks. I completely forgot Southern RR had the route into NOL then. I assume then the sleeper must

have been a Pullman on the Amtrak leg because IIRC they didn't go out of business until the early 1980's (around the time of our trip).

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Pullman Company ceased operation of Sleeping Cars operated December 31, 1968. Some of the railroads like Santa Fe, UP and SCL that still had quite a few Sleeping Car lines assumed operations of their Sleeping Cars until April 30, 1971 when Amtrak took over. Others like MoPac, KS and GM&O which had only 1 Sleeping Car line left ran Sleeperless trains until April 30, 1971. Southern operated their own Sleeping Cars from January 1,1969 until 1979 when Amtrak took over operations of the Crescent.

 

[Anderson]

The Pullman Company ceased operation of Sleeping Cars operated December 31, 1968. Some of the railroads like Santa Fe, UP and SCL that still had quite a few Sleeping Car lines assumed operations of their Sleeping Cars until April 30, 1971 when Amtrak took over. Others like MoPac, KS and GM&O which had only 1 Sleeping Car line left ran Sleeperless trains until April 30, 1971. Southern operated their own Sleeping Cars from January 1,1969 until 1979 when Amtrak took over operations of the Crescent.

I'd wondered about that. I knew that Pullman went into bankruptcy in the late 1960s, but bankruptcy didn't necessarily mean that it had ceased operating/liquidated.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I was just watching a video showing the last daylight departure of the East Bound Sunset Limited in Ontario, CA. Now I will admit I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if this has already been discussed, and if your feeling especially kind point to the page. Anyway, I feel like it was a year or two ago that these stations near LA on the Sunset route were pushing for more train service beyond the Sunset Limited. With this time change do you think that kills that notion?

 

[Bob Dylan]

With the current Budget and Political Climate that exists in California and the Country, California would have to fund any such Trains and chances of this happening are Slim and None!

We can't get a daily Sunset/Eagle running so Im sure that this will remain the only Amtrak Train on this route in your Lifetime! <_< (and you're one of our youngest members! :lol: )

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The history of railroading is nothing without understanding that there were many changes. Routes, schedules, equipment, very little was written in stone.

For example, this transcon sleeper on the Crescent (and possibly the Piedmont Limited at times) and the Sunset Limited(and the Argonaut at times) has been known to operate Washington to LA, New York to LA and for a time, even with Amtrak.from Boston to LA. Wish I had ridden that.. Just like I wish I had ridden the Sunset from Miami to LA.

I am going to give the schedule from WAS to LA from a 1955 Southern timetable. You will note the schedule of the northbound Crescent was very different from today.Remember there is a long convoluted story about the Crescent, the Southerner, the Southern Crescenterc etc which would make this much more complicated than it needs to be. And nothing was written in stone, rather things changed often through the years.

Here it goes Westbound DAILY

lv WAS 6.10 pm Sunday

ar NOL 6.55 pm Monday

lv NOL 11.45pm Monday(Sunset Ltd sleepers originating in NOL could be boarded at 10.00pm)

ar LA 4.15 pm Wednesday

Eastbound DAILY

lv LA 8 pm Sunday

ar NOL 4 pm Tuesday

lv NOL 11 pm Tuesday (sleepers originating in NOL could be boarded at 10 pm}

ar WAS 4.15 am Thursday, may be occupied until 7.30 am

I guess this sleeper ran from WAS instead of NYC since there were other transcon routes all around, such as NYC to LA via Chicago.

Some may notice that the northbound Crescent took two nights.That is correct. It was the Southerner which only took one night back then northbound. As I stress,nothing is written in stone.

_

 

[George Harris]

In the 1950's and early to mid 60's, the Crescent was scheduled to arrive at 8:00am at Atlanta southbound and New York City northbound. The northbound train therefore left New Orleans late at night, arrived at Montgomery AL in the morning and left Atlanta about 1:45 in the afternoon. Between Atlanta and Washington the Crescent was Pullman only up to the time the Augusta (and Asheville?) Specials were combined with it. After that it was still had no coaches between Charlotte and Atlanta. If you were in coach northbound you had to change to another train (The Peach Queen?) at Atlanta. The Crescent was Southern's top train for most of its life, but it was not Southern all the way. From Atlanta south in ran on lines that are now all CSX, West Point Route between Atlanta and Montgomery and Louisville and Nashville between Montgomery and New Orleans. Beginning somewhere in the early 60's, the northbound Crescent was combined with the L&N's Pan American between New Orleans and Montgomery.

North of Atlanta the Crescent was a far larger train than it was south of Atlanta. The Crescent had more than one drop off sleeper northbound in Washington.

The Southerner came along later. I do not know the history well enough to lay it out, but Mr. Haithcoat probably does. It was Southern Railway System all the way. Its schedule has been fairly close to the current Crescent schedule for most of its life to the best of my knowledge.

Like the Crescent, the Southerner was a much larger train north of Atlanta than it was south of Atlanta.

For a brief period toward the end of the 1960's the Southerner and the Crescent were combined southbound. The Crescent and Peach Queen, if I have identified it right, were combined northbound.

* * * * *

Note that in the 50's the Sunset Limited left New Orleans late evening and arrived Los Angeles in mid-afternoon. The change to afternoon departure from New Orleans and early morning arrival in Los Angeles came with its combination with the Golden State west of El Paso. (The Golden State was the Rock Island - Southern Pacific answer to the AT&SF's Super Chief. A considerably faster schedule was in the plan immediately post WW2 but died due to the ICC's 1947 order requiring ATC or ATS in order to run 80 mph or faster. Equipping the relatively low volume lines between Herrington KS and El Paso just was not economically feasible.)

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Bill & George: Great Stuff! Thanks! :hi:

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In the 1950's and early to mid 60's, the Crescent was scheduled to arrive at 8:00am at Atlanta southbound and New York City northbound. The northbound train therefore left New Orleans late at night, arrived at Montgomery AL in the morning and left Atlanta about 1:45 in the afternoon. Between Atlanta and Washington the Crescent was Pullman only up to the time the Augusta (and Asheville?) Specials were combined with it. After that it was still had no coaches between Charlotte and Atlanta. If you were in coach northbound you had to change to another train (The Peach Queen?) at Atlanta. The Crescent was Southern's top train for most of its life, but it was not Southern all the way. From Atlanta south in ran on lines that are now all CSX, West Point Route between Atlanta and Montgomery and Louisville and Nashville between Montgomery and New Orleans. Beginning somewhere in the early 60's, the northbound Crescent was combined with the L&N's Pan American between New Orleans and Montgomery.

North of Atlanta the Crescent was a far larger train than it was south of Atlanta. The Crescent had more than one drop off sleeper northbound in Washington.

The Southerner came along later. I do not know the history well enough to lay it out, but Mr. Haithcoat probably does. It was Southern Railway System all the way. Its schedule has been fairly close to the current Crescent schedule for most of its life to the best of my knowledge.

Like the Crescent, the Southerner was a much larger train north of Atlanta than it was south of Atlanta.

For a brief period toward the end of the 1960's the Southerner and the Crescent were combined southbound. The Crescent and Peach Queen, if I have identified it right, were combined northbound.

* * * * *

Note that in the 50's the Sunset Limited left New Orleans late evening and arrived Los Angeles in mid-afternoon. The change to afternoon departure from New Orleans and early morning arrival in Los Angeles came with its combination with the Golden State west of El Paso. (The Golden State was the Rock Island - Southern Pacific answer to the AT&SF's Super Chief. A considerably faster schedule was in the plan immediately post WW2 but died due to the ICC's 1947 order requiring ATC or ATS in order to run 80 mph or faster. Equipping the relatively low volume lines between Herrington KS and El Paso just was not economically feasible.)

Thanks George. Yes, you are correct about the Peach Queen.

And thanks for pointing out trains being longer north of Atlanta. I have pointed that out through the years.The explanation is so simple---more population.

The Southerner began in 1941 as a streamlined diesel powered train with a one night out schedule in both directions. Sleepers were added about 1950.but they did not go any further south than Birmingham. It had the same route as the Crescent does today.

At the same time the Crescent was requipped as a streamliner. The Crescent southbound schedule was one night out and close to the Southerner schedule.

All the trains we are talking about were operated by the Pennsylvania RR between New York and Washington.

Some may wonder what the "Southern Crescent" was. It was a merging of the two streamliners into one. The name "Southern" was meant to remind us of the Southerner but everybody forgot all about the Southerner

The new combined train had the route of the Southerner since the Crescent's route still had another train, the Piedmont Limited. The schedule of the Southerner was kept. The best equipment from each was used including that Cresdent mid train sleeper lounge which had a shower in the master room. For the first time ever there were both through coaches and through sleepers all the way from NYC to NOL on the same train.

When Amtrak took over in 1979, the name "Southern" was dropped and we are left with a train which was actually more like the former Southerner than the former Crescent.

 

[George Harris]

Bill, I beg to differ on one thing. I am reasonably sure the Southerner had sleepers through to New Orleans by the early 60's.

 

[Anderson]

I was just watching a video showing the last daylight departure of the East Bound Sunset Limited in Ontario, CA. Now I will admit I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if this has already been discussed, and if your feeling especially kind point to the page. Anyway, I feel like it was a year or two ago that these stations near LA on the Sunset route were pushing for more train service beyond the Sunset Limited. With this time change do you think that kills that notion?

The question is whether you're talking about an LD train or a corridor train. For example, a Los Angeles-Palm Springs/Indio train might have a case made for it as a 2-3 hour corridor run (and something like that could probably be run twice-daily with a single equipment set or be paired with a duo of LAX-terminating Surfliners...also, in bad traffic, the train would be driving time competitive)...but something longer than that would likely have far more trouble unless AZ were to really warm up to the idea of passenger rail (and even then, you'd probably be looking at a Hoosier State-esque "fill-in" train from AZ to LA).

I don't think the time change kills the notion of adding service there in the longer run; if anything, it would seem to reinforce it given that it moves the Sunset to bad times for those trips (2 AM-5:30 AM and 10 PM/12:30 AM aren't exactly reasonable hours); the presence of a twice daily rail-bus connection on the Ontario-Palm Springs run would seem to reinforce this (especially as a twice-daily train would allow the bus to be truncated at either Ontario or LAX).

Also...for some reason, Amtrak.com doesn't want to allow me to book tickets to/from Palm Springs, CA (though it offers a lot of bus stops in the area).

 

[russianrail]

Also...for some reason, Amtrak.com doesn't want to allow me to book tickets to/from Palm Springs, CA (though it offers a lot of bus stops in the area).

Having been looking at this for some friends who are trying to get down to Temecula, CA (even worse off then Palm Springs for decent connections), the issue (problem?) is that all of the Palm Springs Ambuses run out of Bakersfield. The only way to connect to LAX is to change at San Bernadino for Metrolink. I would be curious to hear some of the history here, but clearly Amtrak is not serving the market from this area south-east of LAX into the LAX area. The only Amtrak connections that you can do are to/from the San Joaquines.

 

[Sactobob]

Also...for some reason, Amtrak.com doesn't want to allow me to book tickets to/from Palm Springs, CA (though it offers a lot of bus stops in the area).

Having been looking at this for some friends who are trying to get down to Temecula, CA (even worse off then Palm Springs for decent connections), the issue (problem?) is that all of the Palm Springs Ambuses run out of Bakersfield. The only way to connect to LAX is to change at San Bernadino for Metrolink. I would be curious to hear some of the history here, but clearly Amtrak is not serving the market from this area south-east of LAX into the LAX area. The only Amtrak connections that you can do are to/from the San Joaquines.

In addition to the Thruway connections from the San Joaquins which have been running for many years, Thruway connections to Palm Springs from Fullerton (connecting from Surfliners) have been added in recent months.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bill, I beg to differ on one thing. I am reasonably sure the Southerner had sleepers through to New Orleans by the early 60's.

You are right, George.

 

[rogerVarland]

Since the last post here was almost 4 years ago, I'm wondering if anyone has recent experience with staying in their room after an early arrival? I'm scheduled for two weeks from now and wondering what the odds are of convincing the SCA to abide by the footnote in the timetable? I'll compromise at 6:00, but 4:30?

 

[Palmetto]

Two things: the train arrives LA at 5:35 AM [PST]. I can't find a statement on the timetable allowing occupancy until 6:00 AM. Is that the situation these days?

 

[rogerVarland]

Two things: the train arrives LA at 5:35 AM [PST]. I can't find a statement on the timetable allowing occupancy until 6:00 AM. Is that the situation these days?

Agreed, the timetable states 5:35a, but it's not uncommon to arrive somewhat early, as it did this morning at 4:30. Perhaps more significantly, you're correct in that the timetable no longer contains the statement welcoming sleeping car passengers to occupy their rooms until 6:30. It was in the 2015 national timetable, but now seems to have disappeared in both the national edition and the route specific listings. Maybe a call to HQ can enlighten me . . . .

 

[Bob Dylan]

Now that the Metro Lounge opens @ 530am, its not such a hassle to arrive into LAX in the wee hours as the City of Angels sleeps.

You'll usually hit the stops about 5-530am but if you're not a sound Sleeper you'll probably wakeup by the Pomona stop as people stir/detrain and the SCA starts trying to prepare the car for arrival into LAX.

And Philippe opens for Breakfast @ 6am, so head for the Lounge,grab a coffee,( forget Starbucks/ it's free) stash your stuff and then stroll up the street for a great breakfast!

 

[Palmetto]

Roger's point is well taken: the train arrived in LA at about 4:30, and one could argue that a person's body is still on Mountain Time, making it feel like 3:30 AM. Either way, it's a god-awful time to get out of bed. And if the train is as early as it was today, what does one do for the hour prior to the opening of the Lounge, and worse--the one and a half hours before Philippe opens to get something to eat?

With the downturn in freight traffic, most of the Amtrak trains are being dispatched much more quickly by the railroads. It seems as if a schedule adjustment might be in order for this train. I'll let the schedule gurus on here wrestle with that.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak's godawful calling times in SAS and LAUS are two of the primary reasons I no longer ride the Sunset Limited on a regular basis. For a while Amtrak tried to make a compromise by allowing sleeper passengers to remain in their rooms until the sun had a chance to come up. Then they decided even that was too much to ask. At this point everyone gets the boot as soon as the train arrives. If that happens to be the dead of night then it simply sucks to be you.

 

[greatcats]

Downturn in freight traffic? Maybe so, and I certainly am not familiar with BNSF figures, but it would appear hard to believe this is the case with the number of lengthy freight trains passing through Flagstaff each day.

 

[caravanman]

One of the features of the City Night Line trains in Europe is that they often stop for extended periods on certain routes, precisely so that passengers don't arrive too early in the mornings. I never noticed this myself, having slept through the halts.

Arriving early is probably such a novelty with Amtrak, that no one has thought of this solution.

Ed.