As part of the NARP's Sunset Limited group, I did some extensive research on the Sunset Limited's operation. Here is what I found. They have never changed the schedule from before Katrina so when the train arrives in New Orleans, that set of equipment lays over for three days before returning as if it were going on to Orlando. There are occasions when two sets of equipment are in New Orleans overnight. If you study the timetable you can see this occurring. I confirmed this with an Amtrak employee who sent me the consists as they laid over. There is also an extra set sitting in LA as they can' turn the set arriving in the morning by the scheduled 2:30PM departure time because of the unreliable scheduling by the UP. So there are currently four sets of equipment in service to maintain a three times a week service between LA and New Orleans. It only takes five sets to run daily if you fix the schedule. In addition, they changed up the eastbound schedule to make sure it meets with the Eagle in San Antonio. As a consequence there is a two hour and 35 minute layover in San Antonio eastbound and two hours and 40 minutes westbound. Three of the largest population centers on the route are visited at inopportune times that only an insomniac could appreciate. Phoenix(Maricopa actually - 4-5 million people), San Antonio(approx 2 million people) and Houston(5.5 million people). You have to wonder what these people at Amtrak are thinking. Are they just idiots or what?. No train run like this can survive for very long. It's a travesty. Personally, I think the train is doomed unless there is some grass roots effort on the part of the host states and congressmen to put pressure on Amtrak to fix this train. Being from Houston, I of course want the service to continue and the schedule restored to it's pre-Katrina and UP meltdown timings. If they junk the Sunset, which they could do, they would probably throw us a bone and extend the Eagle to LA on the Sunsets schedule. That would leave Houston and New Orleans without any connection west and it would leave Texas with only the Eagle and the Heartland flyer service. Really sad.
Sunset Limited Daily needs only one addl set
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
So its possible. It would be herculian idiocy, but it is possible.
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
What's the current consist of a single Sunset Limited trainset?
I suspect that by removing one sleeper and one coach from whatever the current standard consist is now, you could come up with enough sleepers and coaches for another trainset if you assume that daily operation would reduce the number of passengers per train, and elsewhere on these forums there's been mention that there are plenty of P42s, so then the question is just whether there are enough lounge / diner / transdorm cars. And maybe not having a transition car isn't really a problem, given AlanB's comments about not having gotten to ride on a real transdorm three years ago. And maybe the CCC cars can help with the lounge / diner issue.
I suspect that by removing one sleeper and one coach from whatever the current standard consist is now, you could come up with enough sleepers and coaches for another trainset if you assume that daily operation would reduce the number of passengers per train, and elsewhere on these forums there's been mention that there are plenty of P42s, so then the question is just whether there are enough lounge / diner / transdorm cars. And maybe not having a transition car isn't really a problem, given AlanB's comments about not having gotten to ride on a real transdorm three years ago. And maybe the CCC cars can help with the lounge / diner issue.
NativeSon5859
Conductor
NOL-SAS: 2 P42, Transition Sleeper, Sleeper, Diner, Lounge, 2 Coaches. Sometimes they have a baggage car...usually in the summer.
SAS-LAX: Same, just add one one Coach and Sleeper from the Eagle
Save The Sunset.
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MrEd
Conductor
amtrak told me the problem is not the trains, the stations east of new orleans have been destroyed and they don't know how to rebuild them.
had8ley
Engineer
Here we go again Mr. Ed. Amtrak has stood firm on the lack of a station in Mobile because a developer bought the property the station is on yet Amtak will dump pax in the middle of a train yard, with not a bench, telephone or Amshack in sight, in Beaumont on the same route. Anyway, the President of Amtrak has pretty much publicly admitted that service east of NOL is about as dead as is the three year excuse of no depots. (I wish I knew how many stations on the Amtrak sytem have no depots? Anybody keeping a tab?) I'm sure it's in the hundreds.
NativeSon5859
Conductor
Yeah, that's a bunch of nonsense.
Mobile could easily put up a temporary station in a very short period of time to get the ball rolling until plans are in place for a new station. All of the others along the route are in working order from what I'm told. Anyway I'll see for myself this summer when I do my Rail Up drive to drum up support for the Sunset East. I'll post pictures once I return.
Mobile could easily put up a temporary station in a very short period of time to get the ball rolling until plans are in place for a new station. All of the others along the route are in working order from what I'm told. Anyway I'll see for myself this summer when I do my Rail Up drive to drum up support for the Sunset East. I'll post pictures once I return.
had8ley
Engineer
Good luck. We desperately need that missing puzzle piece to the Amtrak map~ NOL to JAX.
The lies from Amtrak are numerous concerning this service. I won't go into that here. But consider this.....the Phoenix metro area has a population of 4-5 million, a substantial market. The train stops in Maricopa which is about 35 minutes south, closer than most airports in most large cities. Amtrak offers no shuttle or bus service between Maricopa and Phoenix. It just dumps people off in the middle of the desert and leaves. Westbound #1 arrives in Maricops at 2:22AM. Eastbound #2 arrives at 11:07PM. Who in their right mind would use such a service. And, it only runs three times a week. Tucson with around a million people has it even worse with #1 arriving at 12:20AM and #2 at 1:35AM. I have worked this schedule multiple times on the computer and it is easily possible to service Maricopa, Tucson, El Paso, San Antonio, Houston and New Orleans at decent arrival and departure times and still easily make the Eagle connection in SA and keep much of the schedule padding put in to help the UP. Why they don't fix this is the unsolved mystery. Apparently they have just written off the Sunset period as they are spending money and effort on their other LD trains like the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder etc.
The consists are an eight car train before SA, with a baggage(sometimes), sleeper dorm, sleeper, lounge, diner, two coaches going on to New Orleans and the Eagle coach and sleeper dropping off in San Antonio. When I drove out to Phoenix in April I saw the train as it came into Alpine, Tx and this was the consists sans the baggage. The train looked to be well patronized inspite of Amtraks incompetence. Think of how it could perform if they made even a modicum of effort to improve the schedule, make it daily, and add some capacity.
jf
The consists are an eight car train before SA, with a baggage(sometimes), sleeper dorm, sleeper, lounge, diner, two coaches going on to New Orleans and the Eagle coach and sleeper dropping off in San Antonio. When I drove out to Phoenix in April I saw the train as it came into Alpine, Tx and this was the consists sans the baggage. The train looked to be well patronized inspite of Amtraks incompetence. Think of how it could perform if they made even a modicum of effort to improve the schedule, make it daily, and add some capacity.
jf
Living in Phoenix( Tempe actually), I second heartily the above sentiment about the insane concept that Maricopa is a "Phoenix" stop and also second the complaint about the scheduling. About 20 years ago, I took my two( then young) kids from San Diego -- LAX and then LAX to Tempe because I wanted them to experience an overnight train experience in a sleeper. It left LAX in the late evening and arrived in Tempe after a good night's sleep and breakfast in the early morning. We walked to my car which I had parked at work( ASU is within easy walking distance of the old Tempe train station) and went home after a great experience. My point is Amtrak has had a realistic schedule before for the Phoenix area( it is the 5th largerst city after all) and could do it again. Yes I know all about the track issues concerning the spur to Phoenix but nothing is impossible. With light rail starting in the end of this year which would service both Tempe and Phoenix, it's insane not to have decent Amtrak service for this part of the country. And as an aside for those of you that support Amtrak, be very afraid if McCain is elected. While I realize that Amtrak isn't( and shouldn't be) the only reason to vote for someone, he has been absolutely inimical toward Amtrak throughout his congressional career. He never saw a new airport he wouldn't support.
Ed
Fixed quote tags
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Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
I can't remember: is the track to Phoenix abandoned, or is it maintained to standards that would require extremely slow operation?
And when it's described as a spur, does that mean that the Sunset Limited would have to backtrack over the same track if it did go directly to Phoenix?
And when it's described as a spur, does that mean that the Sunset Limited would have to backtrack over the same track if it did go directly to Phoenix?
Joel, the track from Tucson west into Phoenix is maintained as a spur. The track west of Phoenix toward Yuma is used for local traffic on part of it with the middle section mothballed. With the congestion the UP is experiencing on the Sunset route you would think putting the entire route through Phoenix back in service would make sense as another east/west mainline. But then UP would have done Amtrak a favor and that is verboten so we soldier on with the status quo. Eventually the track will be bought by the Azdot and used for commuter rail and possible corridor service between Tucson, Phoenix and LA with UP and Amtrak trackage rights. That is if Amtrak has any LD trains left running by then. Amtrak will never spend a dime to get the track back and the Phoenix depot has been sold to a private business anyway.
Just my opinion, but the southwestern state governments in general are not Amtrak friendly. If things keep going as they are I would predict that AZ, NM, TX and Louisiana will all loose LD service completely. The only routes that might continue for a time would be the Coast Starlight simply because Calif is rail friendly, the Empire Builder, the CZ, NY to Florida service and possibly the Crescent from Atlanta to DC. All the rest are on the chopping block. Here in TX we have such poor service and SW Airlines can get you anywhere you want to go in an hour or two that no one really cares about rail. It's something that Txdot thinks we may need in the year 2050 or so. By then they will be looking at maglev.
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
If the congestion UP is experiencing mostly involves through trains that start hundreds of miles east of Phoenix and end hundreds of miles west of Phoenix and vice versa, adding what is effectively double track near Phoenix without upgrading the rest of the system may not help much of anything if the rest of the system is currently single track. Plus, dragging through freight north to Phoenix adds to fuel and crew costs, and if there are any level crossings in Phoenix, it doesn't help UP make friends with Phoenix. And I would think there's a good chance that their existing mainline right of way is wide enough that they could probably just double track it if they wanted to build more track.
One nice thing about the tracks through Phoenix is how close they come to all of the airports.
One nice thing about the tracks through Phoenix is how close they come to all of the airports.
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
AFAIK, Ticket revenue can't go to capex, and doing what you suggest is capex. So its a nonstarter.
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
Can't? Is there some foreign country that would be so offended by the idea of Amtrak using ticket revenues towards a capital expense that they would use nuclear weapons to obliterate the United States of America if Amtrak decided to do that?
Don't the ticket revenues in the NEC exceed the operating expenses? What would Amtrak do with the profit other than pay off a small fraction of the debt from all those infrastructure upgrades?
Don't the ticket revenues in the NEC exceed the operating expenses? What would Amtrak do with the profit other than pay off a small fraction of the debt from all those infrastructure upgrades?
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
US laws governing Amtraks use of funds?
If Amtrak can't use ticket revenue for Capital Expense, then the entire dream that was sold in 1971 goes down the drain. Amtrak is supposed to make a profit according to those dreamers, if it can't use it's monies for Capital expenses, then it can never be profitable.
Mind you it never will, but that's a different story. But ticket revenue if it were to ever exceed operating expense can most certainly go towards operating expense.
Mind you it never will, but that's a different story. But ticket revenue if it were to ever exceed operating expense can most certainly go towards operating expense.
dan72
Lead Service Attendant
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This has also perplexed me. In order to have a connection to Phoenix, you need to take the Southwest Chief which then means a 2+ hour bus ride from Flagstaff. Why more isn't done with the Maricopa stop is beyond me. I would love to go to AZ by way of TE and SL, but with the times and lack of connection into Phoenix, I am very leary about ever pushing ahead with such a trip.
Dan
the_traveler
Engineer
I agree, it makes no sense at all. To get to Phoenix, you have to take the SWC to Flagstaff and then take a 2+ hour ride, instead of a 20-30 minute ride from Maricopa from the SL! Maybe they want to use the excuse of the late hour - but you can get shuttles from Sky Harbor late at night!
Even Las Vegas, NV (which is not even served by Amtrak trains) is shown on the schedules from 4 different directions!
Saying that Maricopa is "the" stop for Phoenix (for someone vacationing) makes as much sense as Rockford, IL calling it's airport "Rockford/Chicago' - even though Rockford is 90 miles from Chicago!
True, you could drive from Maricopa to Phoenix - the only thing is you would have to get to Phoenix to rent a car so you could drive to Phoenix! How does Amtrak detrmine when/if it will have Thruway bus connections? I might even take a bus to Maricopa( which could then go on to the Harrah's Ak Chin Casino down the road a ways) to catch the Sunset( or even go to Tucson if the Sunset were daily). Just wonderingI agree, it makes no sense at all. To get to Phoenix, you have to take the SWC to Flagstaff and then take a 2+ hour ride, instead of a 20-30 minute ride from Maricopa from the SL! Maybe they want to use the excuse of the late hour - but you can get shuttles from Sky Harbor late at night!
Even Las Vegas, NV (which is not even served by Amtrak trains) is shown on the schedules from 4 different directions!
Saying that Maricopa is "the" stop for Phoenix (for someone vacationing) makes as much sense as Rockford, IL calling it's airport "Rockford/Chicago' - even though Rockford is 90 miles from Chicago!
Ed
From what I've read on this forum so far, it's not a Amtrak Thruway Bus. It's a van with expensive fare. You'll need to take a big risk to make money on casino to pay for it. Easiest gambling is to take a bus to Flagstaff.
p&sr
OBS Chief
Sounds good to me. Same thing for South Bend, Indiana (84 miles from Chicago). The Regional Airport there says you can consider it as "one of Chicago's airports", because you can head directly into town from the terminal via the South Shore Line.
the_traveler
Engineer
How about when Skybus was operating, the "airport" for Hartford, CT was in Chicopee, MA (IIRC about 40 miles away), and the "airport" for Boston, MA was in Portsmouth, NH (IIRC about 50 miles away)!
The "airports" are not even in the same state! Or the "airport" for Vancouver, BC was in Bellingham, WA - not even in the same country! And none of these (including Rockford) has any connection to their "cities". (At least South Bend does - but it's still a stretch.)
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
Is there any good reason why the South Shore Line stopped stopping at the Amtrak station in South Bend when they started stopping at the airport?
South Bend is certainly doing better than the Manchester-Boston Regional Airport, which is not in Massachusetts the way Boston is, where the proposal seems to be that you can
1) get on a train at BON
take the existing MBTA Commuter Rail train
2) change to a different train a Lowell
take a train that doesn't exist yet
3) transfer to a bus at a new station that will exist just to facilitate this bus connection
I think they really ought to build a couple miles of new track that goes right to the airport terminal and continues north to downtown Manchester. Then they should provide an express train from BON to the airport that skips at least some of the MBTA stops, possibly timed so that, for example in the northbound direction, you don't have to wait too long at Lowell if you're heading north to the airport from some stop that the express train skips. Otherwise, T F Green is going to be obviously easier to get to.
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