Sunset Limited's Future

[ScottC4746]

OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.

I'm not surprised at all, since that's how we do things around here, pretty much letting the topics wander where they may.

Yeah, typically whenever the SSL comes up people talk about where resources are better needed, and everybody usually has a different idea. As you can all tell, I am a huge advocate for Ohio and think that Amtrak with its horrid calling hours has kind of hurt chances of filling seats and esp. rooms... who wants a room from ALC-WAS? You board at 3AM... and rooms on the CL are rarely filled.

Thats true the old comparison to routes thing huh?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.

I'm not surprised at all, since that's how we do things around here, pretty much letting the topics wander where they may.

Yeah, typically whenever the SSL comes up people talk about where resources are better needed, and everybody usually has a different idea. As you can all tell, I am a huge advocate for Ohio and think that Amtrak with its horrid calling hours has kind of hurt chances of filling seats and esp. rooms... who wants a room from ALC-WAS? You board at 3AM... and rooms on the CL are rarely filled.

Thats true the old comparison to routes thing huh?

Its not as much routes as "where are the pax? where can we fill more trains?"

As we mentioned earlier in the thread the SSL has never been a daily train for sustained periods, and service East of NOL would be very hard to restore as anything but a day-train.

Just because there is some sort of aura surrounding the SSL doesn't make it Amtrak's flagship train that we have to protect at all costs. When you have a failing business you have to be very very smart as to where you put money.

This of course provides an endless source of debate and opinions because everybody has their own ideas where the money is best put-- and of course this is an open forum so we should all be allowed to express these ideas.

 

[henryj]

Well if we are going to get back on track, here are my thoughts on the subject. I am a retired CPA so I am a 'numbers' guy. A bean counter if you will. So when all this stuff started circulating around I start looking at schedules and counting cars. We know the Sunset ties up four sets, that's eight coaches, four sleepers, diners, lounges and dorm sleepers. The Eagle between Chi and SAS ties up four sets for daily service, that's eight coaches, four dorm sleepers, diners and lounges. The Thru sleeper and coach to LAX takes another three coaches and sleepers if I counted it right. So we have something like 19 coaches, 7 sleepers, 8 dorm sleepers, 8 diners and 8 lounges in the 'pool'. Soooo, lets make it daily. Now we need seven sets to go daily between LAX and CHI because the set arriving in Chicago at 2:14PM stays there 23 1/2 hours leaving the next day at 1:45PM. Do we have enough? Sort of. We have enough for a train of 2 coaches, 1 sleeper, 1dorm sleeper, 1 diner and 1 lounge with 5 coaches, 1ea dorm sleeper, diner and lounge left in reserve. If we scrounge up 2 extra coaches then the train can have three coaches for a capacity of around 250-300 people. There is nothing left for service east of San Antonio.

Now lets look at the City of New Orleans situation. It takes three sets to run. I am guessing it's a two coach one sleeper train now days from what I have read with a cross country cafe car. To extend it to Orlando takes just two more sets because you have the southbound set laying over in New Orleans for 22+hours which you can now utilize. The down side to all this is the train will likely have to lay over in New Orleans a few hours in each direction before continuing on which is not that bad since it would be during daylight hours. The reason? If you are now going to run a connecting coach train between San Antonio, Houston and New Orleans it won't reach New Orleans until late evening to connect and westbound it would have to leave early morning to reach San Antonio in time to connect with the Eagle/Sunset. Why is this? Because if you try and run a 'coach' train on the current Sunset schedule leaving SAS at 1AM and arriving westbound at 3AM who in their right mind would ride it? It would be worse than a Greyhound bus. Plus of course you have to find the equipment for two additional superliner trains.

The other option for NOL to Florida is a separate train and that would take three sets of 'something', I guess whatever Amtrak could scrounge up. If both the 'coach' remnants of the once proud Sunser Limited become single level, then the superliner CONO becomes an orphan in NOL.

So anyway, I guess I am just stupid, but I just don't understand the so called spokesmen that keep talking about a train leaving for Florida from NOL at 5 or 6 PM. Perhaps Amtrak's goal is to just come up with a schedule so bad that they can eventually just discontinue service between SAS, Houston and NOL. I mean, in a way, it makes some kind of bizarre sense in that Texas doesn't support Amtrak and certainly Houston's Mayor doesn't give a hoot. We know that politics pulls the strings at Amtrak and the Eagle and TEMPO have the inside track there and the pressure is mounting for restoration of some kind of service between New Orleans and Florida. So the way I see it is................Houston gets screwed, again. Maybe we could replace Phoenix as the largest city in the US without train service. Just my opinion.

What do you think?

 

[NativeSon5859]

I posted this on another forum, but it deserves to be posted in this thread as well.
In an ideal world, they should have a daily NOL-ORL train and something like a 3X weekly NOL-JAX train which would connect with the Silver Star for points North. I made a proposed schedule for both.

Gulf Coast Limited

Tri weekly

Dep NOL: 6:00am

Arr JAX: 9:30pm

Dep JAX: 8:10am

Arr NOL: 10:50pm

The above schedules would connect to/from the Silver Star in JAX. Could be a small train, just a couple of Amfleet 2 coaches and a cafe car. It'd give the people living in Gulfport/Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, etc. expanded access to the Amtrak system.

The daily Gulf Wind would dep. NOL at 5:50pm allowing for faster connections from the SL and CONO and would serve the Gulf Coast at better times...on the return, train departs ORL around 5:00pm and arrives NOL at 11:10am...this would require adjusting the WB #1 schedule out of NOL to, say, 1:15pm....this later time out of ORL would, again, provide service for all Gulf Coast markets (Pensacola, just due to its location along the route, would get the least desirebale times, but it wouldn't be served at 1/2/3/4am at least) at better times.

In any case, the chances for two trains are probably slim and none, and slim just left the building, but it's fun to think outside the box a bit.

I get the feeling that we should see some form of restored svc between NOL-ORL in a year's time.

The chances of this are "slim and none" because you don't have a clue as to what the timing over that route is. It's 617 miles from New Orleans to Jacksonville and it takes the train 17 hours. It is another 147 miles from JAX to ORL and that takes another 3 1/2 hours. So your train leaving NOL at 6AM, a time so early that no one would use it, would put the train into JAX at midnight and ORL at 4AM. A ridiculous schedule. The return leaving at 8:10AM from JAX would not get to NOL until midnight and would have to have left ORL at 4AM. The only schedule that works between ORL, JAX and NOL is an overnight one. WB you have to leave ORL around midday for a morning arrival in NOL to make all the connections. EB you have to leave late a night arriving at JAX the next afternoon and ORL that night. Other than that you are talking corridor type coach trains that only go part way. The current Sunset schedule arriving in NOL at 4PM is an abortion caused by the UP foul ups and extreme padding and needs to be changed back to it's original pre-Katrina schedule which would have it arrive in NOL late evening.

Actually, the run can be made in about 14.5 hours assuming no delays. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. I based the times on SL schedules in the early '00's before all the padding was added. Next time, chill with the attitude.

Also, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that the 6:00am train to JAX (and 8:00am return) was proposed as NOL-JAX-NOL only...no ORL. If you think I don't realize that a 4:00am arrival/departure for ORL would not be very smart I'm not sure what to say.

 

[Guest]

Henryi, we should support increasing service to more people, not taking it away.

 

[wayman]

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.

Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.

If somebody has a TT that shows the Broadway Limited making calls in Ohio with full service-- preferably the Amtrak incarnation of it-- I would love to see it.

The Broadway Limited MrFSS posted is a different train than I'm talking about. I wish we could bring back that train, too, but there is no chance of that. The Broadway Limited whose schedule was posted by MrFSS was an all-Pullman, very limited service crack express, the famous primary competitor to the even more famous New York Central 20th Century Limited. The train I'm referring to is Amtrak's Broadway Limited, which shares a name and the routing east of Pittsburgh, and very little else.

In order to make its schedule between NYP and CHI as fast as possible, the original PRR Broadway Limited didn't even stop in Philadelphia! It stopped at "North Philadelphia" (as did many of PRR's NYP-CHI trains), which saved them the manuever the Keystones/Pennsylvanian/Three Rivers (and presumably Amtrak's Broadway Limited) have to make, changing direction in downtown Philadelphia (at 30th St today, or Broad St Station back in the day).

North Philadelphia still exists and is still served by Amtrak ... on one Keystone per day in only one direction, I believe. It's still served by many SEPTA R7s (and R8s, I think). You don't want to get off there today. Trust me. The huge station platforms, longer and grander than any SEPTA station in that neighborhood has any need for, plus the enormous old PRR switching tower nearby (covered in graffiti), are all that's left of the once proud history of this station.

Any revived Amtrak route PHL-CHI or NYP-PHL-CHI would be significantly slowed down from those 1940s timetable speeds by having to come downtown and do the reverse (and engine change, of course). I believe the old engine and crew change point (from GG1 to K4 Pacific, I believe?) was Harrisburg, which didn't involve a direction change. Just pull the old engine off and couple the new one on and go!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.

Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.

If somebody has a TT that shows the Broadway Limited making calls in Ohio with full service-- preferably the Amtrak incarnation of it-- I would love to see it.

The Broadway Limited MrFSS posted is a different train than I'm talking about. I wish we could bring back that train, too, but there is no chance of that. The Broadway Limited whose schedule was posted by MrFSS was an all-Pullman, very limited service crack express, the famous primary competitor to the even more famous New York Central 20th Century Limited. The train I'm referring to is Amtrak's Broadway Limited, which shares a name and the routing east of Pittsburgh, and very little else.

In order to make its schedule between NYP and CHI as fast as possible, the original PRR Broadway Limited didn't even stop in Philadelphia! It stopped at "North Philadelphia" (as did many of PRR's NYP-CHI trains), which saved them the manuever the Keystones/Pennsylvanian/Three Rivers (and presumably Amtrak's Broadway Limited) have to make, changing direction in downtown Philadelphia (at 30th St today, or Broad St Station back in the day).

North Philadelphia still exists and is still served by Amtrak ... on one Keystone per day in only one direction, I believe. It's still served by many SEPTA R7s (and R8s, I think). You don't want to get off there today. Trust me. The huge station platforms, longer and grander than any SEPTA station in that neighborhood has any need for, plus the enormous old PRR switching tower nearby (covered in graffiti), are all that's left of the once proud history of this station.

Any revived Amtrak route PHL-CHI or NYP-PHL-CHI would be significantly slowed down from those 1940s timetable speeds by having to come downtown and do the reverse (and engine change, of course). I believe the old engine and crew change point (from GG1 to K4 Pacific, I believe?) was Harrisburg, which didn't involve a direction change. Just pull the old engine off and couple the new one on and go!

Yeah, if the train ran with AEM-7s, couldn't you keep those on through Harrisburg?

 

[jphjaxfl]

In order to make its schedule between NYP and CHI as fast as possible, the original PRR Broadway Limited didn't even stop in Philadelphia! It stopped at "North Philadelphia" (as did many of PRR's NYP-CHI trains), which saved them the manuever the Keystones/Pennsylvanian/Three Rivers (and presumably Amtrak's Broadway Limited) have to make, changing direction in downtown Philadelphia (at 30th St today, or Broad St Station back in the day).
North Philadelphia still exists and is still served by Amtrak ... on one Keystone per day in only one direction, I believe. It's still served by many SEPTA R7s (and R8s, I think). You don't want to get off there today. Trust me. The huge station platforms, longer and grander than any SEPTA station in that neighborhood has any need for, plus the enormous old PRR switching tower nearby (covered in graffiti), are all that's left of the once proud history of this station.

Any revived Amtrak route PHL-CHI or NYP-PHL-CHI would be significantly slowed down from those 1940s timetable speeds by having to come downtown and do the reverse (and engine change, of course). I believe the old engine and crew change point (from GG1 to K4 Pacific, I believe?) was Harrisburg, which didn't involve a direction change. Just pull the old engine off and couple the new one on and go!

I boarded Amtrak's Broadway Limited at North Philadelphia in 1973. At the time, Amtrak had ticket agents there. I was able to check my bag and had some time to kill so I took a ride on the Germantown Avenue Trolley which was a short walk from the station. At that time, the National Limited was running from Washington to Kansas City via Harrisburg using the Ft. Deposit line to bypass Philadlephia. If I remember correctly, they may have switched a Sleeper and a coach to the Broadway at Harrisburg. In 1978, I traveled from Washington to Chicago on the Washington section of the Broadway Limited which followed the NEC from Washington through Philadelphia 30th Street and on to Harrisburg where the Washington section combined with the New York section to continue on to Chicago. In 1978, the New York section of the Broadway still stopped at North Philadelphia. The Broadway then followed an all ex PRR route from New York to Chicago, the same as the original Broadway Limited.

 

[wayman]

Yeah, if the train ran with AEM-7s, couldn't you keep those on through Harrisburg?

You could, but in order to keep the engine in the lead I think you'd have to take the North Philadelphia-to-ZOO cutoff bypassing 30th St, or else run a cab-car and use that to control the train from Philadelphia to Harrisburg (with the AEM-7 on the back end), then uncouple the AEM-7 from the back and couple a P42 on the front--in front of the cab-car--at Harrisburg. It would look really weird, but I suppose it would work? Seems like it would be a better use of resources (limited supply of cab-cars) to just do the change in Philadelphia.

What I don't remember, or know how they'd handle, is long-distance coaches whose seats will be backwards for either NYP-PHL or PHL-CHI. The Keystone's seats are half-facing-each-way, which is fine for commuter trains, but for a long-haul I would think passengers would far prefer to face forward the whole way.

I suppose the simplest answer is to just start the train in Philadelphia?...

 

[AlanB]

Yeah, if the train ran with AEM-7s, couldn't you keep those on through Harrisburg?

You could, but in order to keep the engine in the lead I think you'd have to take the North Philadelphia-to-ZOO cutoff bypassing 30th St, or else run a cab-car and use that to control the train from Philadelphia to Harrisburg (with the AEM-7 on the back end), then uncouple the AEM-7 from the back and couple a P42 on the front--in front of the cab-car--at Harrisburg. It would look really weird, but I suppose it would work? Seems like it would be a better use of resources (limited supply of cab-cars) to just do the change in Philadelphia.

What I don't remember, or know how they'd handle, is long-distance coaches whose seats will be backwards for either NYP-PHL or PHL-CHI. The Keystone's seats are half-facing-each-way, which is fine for commuter trains, but for a long-haul I would think passengers would far prefer to face forward the whole way.

I suppose the simplest answer is to just start the train in Philadelphia?...

Well he meant by bypassing 30th Street and taking the Zoo cutoff. And technically one could even keep an HHP till Harrisburg.

As for how LD's handle turning in Philly, passengers ride backwards between NYP & PHL in both directions, which leaves them facing forward for the remainder of the trip.

 

[jis]

Well he meant by bypassing 30th Street and taking the Zoo cutoff. And technically one could even keep an HHP till Harrisburg.
As for how LD's handle turning in Philly, passengers ride backwards between NYP & PHL in both directions, which leaves them facing forward for the remainder of the trip.

I believe the bypass track at Zoo was called the New York Subway at some point in time.

The Broadway Limited used that track well into its existence as an Amtrak train. It was using it as late as 1979. I don;t know exactly when that changed.

 

[printman2000]

I mean, in a way, it makes some kind of bizarre sense in that Texas doesn't support Amtrak and certainly Houston's Mayor doesn't give a hoot.

I do not even know who Houston's mayor is, but not sure I agree with the Texas not supporting Amtrak. Kay Bailey Hutchenson is a huge supporter. Also, there are plans in Houston for an intermodal station that would include Amtrak service. The state also helps pays for the Heartland Flyer.

I also know for a fact that the mayor of Amarillo would love to have Amtrak service!

 

[henryj]

Henryi, we should support increasing service to more people, not taking it away.

I do support more service. I was just commenting on the rumors circulating around about combining the Sunset with the Eagle.

 

[henryj]

I mean, in a way, it makes some kind of bizarre sense in that Texas doesn't support Amtrak and certainly Houston's Mayor doesn't give a hoot.

I do not even know who Houston's mayor is, but not sure I agree with the Texas not supporting Amtrak. Kay Bailey Hutchenson is a huge supporter. Also, there are plans in Houston for an intermodal station that would include Amtrak service. The state also helps pays for the Heartland Flyer.

I also know for a fact that the mayor of Amarillo would love to have Amtrak service!

So would I. We have had no connection between Texas and Colorado(thru Amarillo) since the 1960's. Houston's mayor is Bill white. The Intermodal Center is part of Houston Metro's long term plans. Texas Governor is Rick Perry. He probably has never heard of Amtrak. Kay Bailey Hutchinson is our only Amtrak supporter. Rumor is she plans to run for Governor. Lets hope so.

 

[henryj]

Actually, the run can be made in about 14.5 hours assuming no delays. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. I based the times on SL schedules in the early '00's before all the padding was added. Next time, chill with the attitude.
Also, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that the 6:00am train to JAX (and 8:00am return) was proposed as NOL-JAX-NOL only...no ORL. If you think I don't realize that a 4:00am arrival/departure for ORL would not be very smart I'm not sure what to say.

The schedule was more like 15 hours even when L&N ran the Gulf Wind and it always was an overnight train. The schedule you refer to had the train leaving NOL eastbound at 11PM and arriving in JAX at 2:30 and Orlando at 4:50. Returning it left ORL at 6:40PM, JAX at 10:30PM and arrived in NOL before noon. Orlando is the main destination for passengers going to Florida with something like 50 million visitors a year, JAX is a secondary destination. A day train that does not continue on to Orlando or connect with one of the Silver Service trains would be useless. CSX was never able to maintain the 15 hour schedule for Amtrak so what's the point of publishing a schedule like that. The best thing Amtrak could do is restore the Sunset Limited east of NOL on it's pre-Katrina schedule. They complain that the route is too long and the stations are not ready and on and on. However, the Eagle route from Chicago to LAX is 2,728 miles. The Sunset's route from LAX to Orlando is 2,759 miles. If they run the Eagle daily LAX to CHI it would take seven sets of equipment. If they run the Sunset daily it would take the same. If they run the Sunset daily LAX to NOL only then it would take 5 sets of which they already have 4 dedicated to the service. As for having a

'clue', I have no clue as to what Amtrak's plans are, just the rumors going around. What I do see is if they decide to combine the Sunset with the Eagle then Houston is screwed.

 

[arubafanatic]

I just want them to bring it BACK. Being from NYC, not having trains available makes me CRAZY. I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry. When I first moved here 20 years ago, I had no real reason to go beyond NOL, but now I have a 7 year old and I drove to ORL to save money and that's not a drive I want to do again anytime soon. But southerners are tied to their trucks and SUV's, but I'd welcome any decent service Dallas to Houston to New Orleans to Orlando....tons of families want to get there without driving and the crazy cost and hassle of flying. The older I get, the less I WANT to fly. But the folks down here think train travel is for poor folks and is only a step above bus travel. :blink:

 

[PaulM]

But southerners are tied to their trucks and SUV's, ...

Sad but true.

But the folks down here think train travel is for poor folks and is only a step above bus travel.

If they even know it exists. I'm originally from Mobile. The last time I visited Mobile and Dallas in the mid 90's by way of the Cardinal, Crescent, Gulf Breeze (defunct), Sunset limited (defunct east of NO), and the Houston section of the Texas Eagle (defunct), not only was patronage of the defunct trains low, but my mother and her friends, many whose husbands were retired from railroad employment, were not aware that Mobile had trains service.

 

[VentureForth]

I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry.

Perry actually is a Republican. Unless, of course, you mean to dethrone him at the primarys and vote for Kay Bailey Hutchinson (sweet lady - met her once). Perry is a bit more friendly than Bush, but not much...

 

[jis]

I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry.

Perry actually is a Republican. Unless, of course, you mean to dethrone him at the primarys and vote for Kay Bailey Hutchinson (sweet lady - met her once). Perry is a bit more friendly than Bush, but not much...

And Kay Hutchinson has also been a staunch supporter of the Texas Eagle through thick and thin.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry.

Perry actually is a Republican. Unless, of course, you mean to dethrone him at the primarys and vote for Kay Bailey Hutchinson (sweet lady - met her once). Perry is a bit more friendly than Bush, but not much...

And Kay Hutchinson has also been a staunch supporter of the Texas Eagle through thick and thin.

Sen. Hutchinson is a big defender of the national network, often saying "national or nothing" during the time when the Bush administration was trying to cut Amtrak down to unconnected corridors. She definitely is a friend of the long distance train.

 

[arubafanatic]

I would only vote in the Rep primary to dethrone his chances of winning. I'm not sure where I stand on Sen. Hutchinson for other positions that she holds, so I don't know if I'd vote for her in the general election. But I am glad that she supports a national train network and now that the gas prices are starting to creep up again, maybe we'll see some improvement.