Tariff

[Train2104]

The Amtrak tariff is said to list fares for every city pair, every bucket, etc. (IIRC). Amtrak is required by law to make the tariff public. Does anyone have a copy of it?

 

[SP&S]

A quick Google found this. 49 CFR Part 700 Page down to 700.3.d.

In 700.3 it states "(e) Each of the documents described in paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section is available to the public for inspection during regular business hours at the office of Amtrak's Freedom of Information Office at its headquarters at 400 North Capitol Street, NW., Washington, DC 20001, and at the office of the Division Manager, Human Resources, in New Haven, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, Los Angeles and Chicago."

Somehow, I don't think it's a common publication. :blush:

 

[Anderson]

Since I'm going to be spending two midday layovers in CHI...where are those offices, again? And can I take a camera in to copy the fares down for desired routes?

Edit: Actually, I might just do this when I'm spending a few days in DC instead...perhaps on May 6...

 

[haolerider]

Since I'm going to be spending two midday layovers in CHI...where are those offices, again? And can I take a camera in to copy the fares down for desired routes?

Edit: Actually, I might just do this when I'm spending a few days in DC instead...perhaps on May 6...

What is the purpose of your quest? The prices in the tariff are almost never the prices quoted for a particular day of travel. I recall the tariff book the Conductors carry to get general ideas about rates. Also, I would suggest contacting the offices in advance, rather than simply showing up and asking to see and photograph the book.

 

[Ryan]

The prices in the tariff are almost never the prices quoted for a particular day of travel.

I'm curious why this is the case?

Personally, I think that it's interesting to do some of the analysis that Tracktwentynine started here and I continued here (with help from several other members).

From a practical perspective, it's good to understand pricing in order to get the best value out of traveling (for example, there's a $200 price increase when taking the Cardinal in a bedroom all the way to Chicago compared with surrendering the room one stop early in Dyer - if I were going to take the Cardinal to Chicago, I'd save myself $200 based on that research).

From a railfan perspective, it's good to have the data when people make assertions about the costs of Amtrak travel. The ability to either prove or disprove that based on hard data helps to advance the discussion, in my opinion. It also gives an insight (perhaps) into the reasoning behind the pricing decisions that are made.

 

[haolerider]

The prices in the tariff are almost never the prices quoted for a particular day of travel.

I'm curious why this is the case?

Personally, I think that it's interesting to do some of the analysis that Tracktwentynine started here and I continued here (with help from several other members).

From a practical perspective, it's good to understand pricing in order to get the best value out of traveling (for example, there's a $200 price increase when taking the Cardinal in a bedroom all the way to Chicago compared with surrendering the room one stop early in Dyer - if I were going to take the Cardinal to Chicago, I'd save myself $200 based on that research).

From a railfan perspective, it's good to have the data when people make assertions about the costs of Amtrak travel. The ability to either prove or disprove that based on hard data helps to advance the discussion, in my opinion. It also gives an insight (perhaps) into the reasoning behind the pricing decisions that are made.

The tariff is a guideline publication with general fares from point to point. With a revenue management system, the fares are dynamic, in that they change with supply and demand. It is not practical to print a new tariff everyday, since prices change every day. The same holds true for the airlines and in fact, you could say the automobile industry has a tariff. It is called the Factory Suggested Price, but you very rarely pay that price, since the dealer is wheeling and dealing to get you to purchase his car and prices fluctuate.

I can see why you might want to look at the Tariff, but for practical purposes,there is little to gain from using that for analysis, unless you are a Revenue Manager and that is your job.

 

[Train2104]

The prices in the tariff are almost never the prices quoted for a particular day of travel.

I'm curious why this is the case?

Personally, I think that it's interesting to do some of the analysis that Tracktwentynine started here and I continued here (with help from several other members).

From a practical perspective, it's good to understand pricing in order to get the best value out of traveling (for example, there's a $200 price increase when taking the Cardinal in a bedroom all the way to Chicago compared with surrendering the room one stop early in Dyer - if I were going to take the Cardinal to Chicago, I'd save myself $200 based on that research).

From a railfan perspective, it's good to have the data when people make assertions about the costs of Amtrak travel. The ability to either prove or disprove that based on hard data helps to advance the discussion, in my opinion. It also gives an insight (perhaps) into the reasoning behind the pricing decisions that are made.

The tariff is a guideline publication with general fares from point to point. With a revenue management system, the fares are dynamic, in that they change with supply and demand. It is not practical to print a new tariff everyday, since prices change every day. The same holds true for the airlines and in fact, you could say the automobile industry has a tariff. It is called the Factory Suggested Price, but you very rarely pay that price, since the dealer is wheeling and dealing to get you to purchase his car and prices fluctuate.

I can see why you might want to look at the Tariff, but for practical purposes,there is little to gain from using that for analysis, unless you are a Revenue Manager and that is your job.

The tariff should give you the range in which the fares are allowed to fluctate, though.

 

[jis]

The tariff should give you the range in which the fares are allowed to fluctate, though.

Isn't Amtrak required by Congressional decree not to charge less than half of the highest fare for the lowest fare on a particular service? So if that is true, then knowing the highest bucket fare should give one a good estimate for the lower bound for the fare on that segment.

I believe this was put in place so as to allow other modes to make more effective use of their subsidies so that private owners can make more money without facing severe competition from Amtrak's use of its subsidies. Doesn't seem to help the airlines much though apparently, and LD bus service has continued to be in terminal decline.

 

[Anderson]

The general ranges of fares and the structure would be interesting from several perspectives.

 

[ACVitale]

Typically in the airline industry our tariff includes pricing for ALL the buckets on a typical route. A city pair can have multiple routings....

ie.

Miami to Washington on United Air Lines

could be routed as

1 Nonstop MIA-WAS(IAD)

2 MIA-CHI(ORD)-WAS(IAD)

3.MIA-NYC(JFK)(LGA)-WAS

4.MIA-CLT-WAS

and so on and then they can include multiples of the above

5. MIA-FLL-TPA-CLT-PHL-PIT-CHI-NYC-WAS or something similar

And then you have fare filings

ie.

TXLOWNR (A typical economy low bucket midweek (Mo-Th) no advance purchase nonrefundable one way fare basis code)

TXLRTNR (A typical economy low bucket midweek (Mo-Th) no advance purchase nonrefundable roundtrip fare basis code)

TXNR (A typical economy low bucket midweek (Mo-Th) no advance purchase nonrefundable one way fare basis code)

TLXNR (A typical economy low bucket midweek (Mo-Th) no advance purchase nonrefundable one way fare basis code)

TX (A typical economy low bucket no advance purchase one way fare basis code

SLOWNR (A typical economy low bucket no advance purchase nonrefundable roundtrip fare basis code)

SLXNR (A typical economy low bucket midweek (Mo-Th) no advance purchase nonrefundable roundtrip fare basis code)

SL14NR (A typical economy 14 day advance purchase low bucket no advance purchase nonrefundable roundtrip fare basis code)

SL21NR (A typical economy 21 day advance purchase low bucket no advance purchase nonrefundable roundtrip fare basis code)

and so on with literally millions of fare basis codes existing

Then you need to check fare rules against routings, advance purchases, etc. Each can have a seperate price....

But, All are listed in the fare filings (Tariffs)

A typical city pair can have up to 200-300 fares filed per carrier.

With Airlines and AMTRAK all fares are filed with a company called ATPCO. These fares are then sent to the GDS (Global Distribution Systems) like Sabre, Worldspan, Galileo and many others where they are used by travel agents, airlines, tour operators etc.

ATPCO updates these 2-8x daily depending on the region, domestic or international and the day of the week.

These all interface with the yield management teams who determine how many seats/rooms to open in a specific bucket on a specific flight/train/bus/ferry/etc.

So it is quite fun sometime to look at it all and determine how/when to get the best combination.... Of course this is all I retain after 25+ years of dealing with yield management, fare filings, and other fun in the airline industry...

Of course Am Snag is easier! But, the tariffs could have hidden gems that you could find similar to airline special fares, RTW fares, Passes etc.

Just my $.02 on the whole thing

 

[had8ley]

Geeezzzz...if somebody wants to look at the tarriff I'll drive them there...better yet we'll train there. This is a typical Amtrak no-no you can't come in. Well I'll huff and I'll puff !!! :angry2: Almost forgot~ TRANSPARENCY~ is three four letter words put together. I guess it's not in Arrow's system or anywhere on Massachusetts Avenue !!! :angry:

 

[Trogdor]

This is a typical Amtrak no-no you can't come in.

This seems more like a typical you being angry and screaming and whining about...exactly what, I'm not sure. But you do that a lot. Nobody in this thread has (to my knowledge) even attempted to look at the tariff, let alone been denied access, yet somehow, you make it sound like Amtrak has already locked the doors to the vault in which this info is stored.

 

[had8ley]

This is a typical Amtrak no-no you can't come in.

This seems more like a typical you being angry and screaming and whining about...exactly what, I'm not sure. But you do that a lot. Nobody in this thread has (to my knowledge) even attempted to look at the tariff, let alone been denied access, yet somehow, you make it sound like Amtrak has already locked the doors to the vault in which this info is stored.

No...a retired Amtrak official made it sound ludicrous that anyone would even want to look at the tariff. Maybe I've been places you haven't; just like you've been places that I haven't. I've seen enough behind the scenes to warrant whining, nay, barking and howling. And NO, you don't know that I, personally, was denied access to the tariff some years ago at HQ. I'm about 30 years ahead of you...maybe you could respect someone who has been there and tried it rather than bash them into a bumper.

 

[Guest]

I believe that conductors carry a tariff book for the route they are working. The fares for connections are the combined local fares. I think it would be easier to simply ask a conductor about the fares the next time you travel.

Knowing the exact fares is one thing -- finding them to purchase will be another. Just because there is a fare in a bucket, doesn't mean it will ever be made available for purchase in a specific market, so be prepared for that.

 

[Ryan]

I'm about 30 years ahead of you...maybe you could respect someone who has been there and tried it rather than bash them into a bumper.

You might be 30 years ahead in the real world, but clearly you're a n00b at the internets. As the retired Amtrak official once said (and I'm paraphrasing), anyone with a keyboard and internet access can be an instant expert in anything! Bashing others into a bumper is the way that it's done. <- I'm definitely joking about this part. I do find it distressing (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular) the lengths some people will go to try and prove that they know more than the next guy, rather than try to work together and play well with others.

OK, seriously - here's what the CFR has to say about the tariffs:

(d) A full statement of Amtrak's tariffs containing the fares for point-to-point travel, regional plan travel and all relevant travel conditions, such as excursions, discounts, family plans, accommodations, etc., is contained in the privately published Official Railway Guide, which is available by subscription from its publisher at 424 West 33rd Street, New York, New York 10001. A copy of the guide can usually be found at each staffed Amtrak station, and at the offices of travel agents authorized to sell Amtrak tickets. Tariff changes which occur between issues of the Guide are published and widely distributed by Amtrak pending their publication in the next issue of the Guide.

Sounds pretty useful to me, and sounds like a copy should be available at a staffed station near you.

 

[GG-1]

I'm about 30 years ahead of you...maybe you could respect someone who has been there and tried it rather than bash them into a bumper.

You might be 30 years ahead in the real world, but clearly you're a n00b at the internets. As the retired Amtrak official once said (and I'm paraphrasing), anyone with a keyboard and internet access can be an instant expert in anything! Bashing others into a bumper is the way that it's done. <- I'm definitely joking about this part. I do find it distressing (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular) the lengths some people will go to try and prove that they know more than the next guy, rather than try to work together and play well with others.

Aloha

Those of us that have been around the block a few times, find it annoying, that so many equate knowledge with experience, It takes both.

 

[SP&S]

I'm about 30 years ahead of you...maybe you could respect someone who has been there and tried it rather than bash them into a bumper.

You might be 30 years ahead in the real world, but clearly you're a n00b at the internets. As the retired Amtrak official once said (and I'm paraphrasing), anyone with a keyboard and internet access can be an instant expert in anything! Bashing others into a bumper is the way that it's done. <- I'm definitely joking about this part. I do find it distressing (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular) the lengths some people will go to try and prove that they know more than the next guy, rather than try to work together and play well with others.

OK, seriously - here's what the CFR has to say about the tariffs:

(d) A full statement of Amtrak's tariffs containing the fares for point-to-point travel, regional plan travel and all relevant travel conditions, such as excursions, discounts, family plans, accommodations, etc., is contained in the privately published Official Railway Guide, which is available by subscription from its publisher at 424 West 33rd Street, New York, New York 10001. A copy of the guide can usually be found at each staffed Amtrak station, and at the offices of travel agents authorized to sell Amtrak tickets. Tariff changes which occur between issues of the Guide are published and widely distributed by Amtrak pending their publication in the next issue of the Guide.

Sounds pretty useful to me, and sounds like a copy should be available at a staffed station near you.

I wouldn't count on the guide these days. The CFR Ryan and I cited dates from 1984. The guide is now published by UBM Global, see railresource.com. After Amtrak, the guide split into passenger and freight sections. Nowadays, I believe only the freight portion survives and it's only $289 for a yearly subscription. Good luck!

 

[ACVitale]

I believe you could for the right amount of money subscribe to ATPCO but I would bet you would be looking at several thousands of $$$ per year. ATPCO provides Amtrak, Airline, Ferry, Rail and even some bus fares worldwide.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Jay is an old man, and as such he is entitled to his fairly limited amount of cynicism. I'm many years younger, and much more cynical. If he wants to get worked up about something, and you disagree with the factual basis of the rant, Trogdor, I am sure you could find a less pointed way of making this known, without needlessly insulting a forum member, or bringing up irrelevant issues from the past.

 

[Anderson]

Oddball question in all of this: If the documentation is something that Amtrak is required to make available to the public (by law), then would it be subject to a FOIA request? I know that sounds absurd, making a FOIA request for railfares, but at least at first glance this would seem to be the case.

As to why it would be of particular import: There are almost always hidden "gems" in any morass of paperwork, such as the Atlanta situation or the Chicago one. I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one more such oddity in the system. Moreover, getting (and retaining) a fuller feel for what buckets are what when, etc. has its own value...particularly over routes I'm going over more frequently than I care to think (for example, driving to DC has become almost unthinkable...at most, I'll drive to RVR and hop one of the nine daily trains).

Edit: At the very least, a practical resource for me would be the tariffs on NPN-WAS (and included segments), and in a few years, NFK-WAS.

 

[1985 Jetta]

ACVitale hit the subject on the head with his analagy with the airline system. Amtrak files fares between all cities served by a single train and in some cases through fares that allow for connecting travel without having to pay what are called point-to-point fares.

While the airlines can and do file fare changes frequently, Amtrak typically only resets fares twice annually. But the system of published fares, so-called buckets (inventory codes), and rules is very similar to the airline system.

I've worked at both airlines and Amtrak, and my guess is that neither maintain a paper tariff any longer that shows all of the fares, since they are readily available on the GDS that airlines and travel agencies use, and the ARROW system used by Amtrak. Some airline tariff (fare) displays are visible to non-travel industry personnel on a couple of free platforms, and on a user-friendly subscription platform (ExpertFlyer.com). To my knowledge, there isn't any mechanism for a non-Amtrak employee or non-travel agent to display fares between Amtrak city-pairs, but if you make friends with a travel agent then you can look at Amtrak fares and availability to your heart's content. The cryptic formats used on the GDS are simple to learn.

I wrote a long blog series for non-travel industry folks explaining the underpinnings of airline fares (Airline Fare School), and I'm starting the second half of an Amtrak series (Amtrak Service and Fares) that will examine how Amtrak's fares work. It will include screen-captures of both tariff displays and availability displays. The first installment of the fares part of the series should be up within a week. The first part addressed Amtrak's service, nearly all of which I suspect Amtrak Unlimited readers know more about than I do and would learn little from. The first part was meant for folks with little or no familiarity with Amtrak.

Links:

Airline Fare School

Amtrak Service and Fares