Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited schedule change

[jdcnosse]

I noticed looking at mock-reservations leaving TUS that sometime after May 1st (I forgot exactly when) The departure time for the 422/1 Train eastbound changes from the 1am-ish departure to an 8am-ish departure.

Anybody know anything about this?

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Yep. Amtrak announce Ld back in late February or somewhere around there that UP is finally allowing them to return to the late night departure from LA. We had a pretty significant 8-page thread you should check out under the Amtrak Rail Discussion category, even if it's a few pages back. This change allows the SL to make a same-day connection from the southbound CS to the SL, which Amyrak figures will bring in about 12,000 pax per year (albeit if this was assuming daily SL/TE). This also allows an equipment consist to be taken out of the rotation by barely changing one of the days of operation and it gives much better times to the two big AZ stops. Another nice change is that the layover in San Antonio for thru-pax is significantly reduced.

 

[colobok]

This change allows the SL to make a same-day connection from the southbound CS to the SL, which Amyrak figures will bring in about 12,000 pax per year (albeit if this was assuming daily SL/TE).

I really don't understand why they think CS-SL connection will change anything.

SL was already linked to Surfliner up to SLO and it was linked to stations from EMY up north via Central Valley trains connecting to CS. So the only segment that benefit from CS-SL connection will be between SLO and EMY which is a very small portion of CS route. Will it really bring 12,000 pax per year ???

 

[Trogdor]

This change allows the SL to make a same-day connection from the southbound CS to the SL, which Amyrak figures will bring in about 12,000 pax per year (albeit if this was assuming daily SL/TE).

I really don't understand why they think CS-SL connection will change anything.

SL was already linked to Surfliner up to SLO and it was linked to stations from EMY up north via Central Valley trains connecting to CS. So the only segment that benefit from CS-SL connection will be between SLO and EMY which is a very small portion of CS route. Will it really bring 12,000 pax per year ???

Not exactly true. The only train from northern California that connects with train 2 is San Joaquin train 702, which leaves SAC at 6:40 am. There is no guaranteed connection from train 11 to train 702, so anyone coming from north of SAC would not be able to connect to the Sunset.

Even if there were a guaranteed connection, the hassle of waking up early in the morning, dragging your bags off the train and onto a single-class corridor train, riding for six hours, then getting off and getting on a bus for another two hours, then getting off and getting on the Sunset would be sure to turn some folks off.

If you're coming from Oakland/San Francisco, you have to get on a bus at 5 in the morning, and do a bus/train/bus/train connection just to get on the Sunset.

There's clearly a benefit to being able to connect from 11 to 2.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Hopefully for those of us in the Texas/Oklahoma region who still wish to take the scenic route back from the Pacific Northwest, the California Zephyr to Texas Eagle with bus-bridge in between option will remain open, especially on non-Sunset days.

 

[the_traveler]

The new schedule from LAX starts May 8!

It was mentioned that only a small portion of the CS was not connected to the SL/TE. To that poster, I pose this question - would you rather:

1. Get off the CS at 6 AM, wait and ride a bus/train/bus thru the central valley (no offense to residents) down to LAX, or
2. Stay aboard the CS down to LAX, get 3 meals and see the Pacific Ocean shoreline and enjoy the PPC?

At least for me. it is an easy choice.

BYW, it is trains #1/#421 (westbound) and trains #2/ #422 (eastbound).

 

[Trogdor]

As I already said, you cannot connect from the Starlight to the San Joaquin to the bus to the Sunset today.

11 to 702 is not a valid connection, and 702 is the only San Joaquin with a valid connection to the Sunset.

 

[zephyr17]

As I already said, you cannot connect from the Starlight to the San Joaquin to the bus to the Sunset today.

11 to 702 is not a valid connection, and 702 is the only San Joaquin with a valid connection to the Sunset.

Yep, I live in Washington and I was surprised to see all this "just a small portion of the Coast Starlight run doesn't have a connection" stuff.

Everything north of Sacramento doesn't have a connection, more than half of the run. Pretty big small portion. The Coast Starlight does go past Emeryville, people.

PS-I've taken the Sunset to New Orleans and had to layover a day in LA to do it, so I like the new schedule just fine!

 

[colobok]

The new schedule from LAX starts May 8!

It was mentioned that only a small portion of the CS was not connected to the SL/TE. To that poster, I pose this question - would you rather:

1. Get off the CS at 6 AM, wait and ride a bus/train/bus thru the central valley (no offense to residents) down to LAX, or
2. Stay aboard the CS down to LAX, get 3 meals and see the Pacific Ocean shoreline and enjoy the PPC?

At least for me. it is an easy choice.

BYW, it is trains #1/#421 (westbound) and trains #2/ #422 (eastbound).

I don't argue that new connection is better, but I doubt it will bring 12000 additional passengers per year.

Reasons:

1) connection from stations up to SLO already exists;

2) connection from EMY/SAC aleady exists too. It's not that convenient as a new one, but it exists. If you need to go this route today - you will go at 6am anyway.

3) connection from stations north from SAC really does not exist today, but it exists in the opposite direction (from SL to CS). In fact SL is already linked to CS now! There is no link from CS to SL.

Summary:

New schedule will create a new link only in one direction (the other direction is already linked!) and will benefit only stations between SLO and EMY (very small number) and north from SAC.

Do you really think it will bring 12000 NEW passengers??? Whoever wants to ride this route can already do it TODAY in one direction and can do it the other direction from the half of CS route station.

 

[Trogdor]

I don't argue that new connection is better, but I doubt it will bring 12000 additional passengers per year.

Reasons:

1) connection from stations up to SLO already exists;

True.

2) connection from EMY/SAC aleady exists too. It's not that convenient as a new one, but it exists. If you need to go this route today - you will go at 6am anyway.

From SAC, yes. From EMY, today you leave at 5 am. In the future, you leave at 8 am. Huge difference.

3) connection from stations north from SAC really does not exist today, but it exists in the opposite direction (from SL to CS). In fact SL is already linked to CS now! There is no link from CS to SL.

A one-way connection might as well not exist at all, if people want to do a round-trip.

Summary:New schedule will create a new link only in one direction (the other direction is already linked!) and will benefit only stations between SLO and EMY (very small number) and north from SAC.

Do you really think it will bring 12000 NEW passengers??? Whoever wants to ride this route can already do it TODAY in one direction and can do it the other direction from the half of CS route station.

The number of stations that gain a connection is greater than 50% of the number of stations the Starlight serves.

Several others gain connections at more reasonable hours.

In any event, Amtrak seems to think it will bring in 12,000 new passengers, and unless you have an actual market analysis to suggest that they're wrong, I'm going to side with Amtrak on this one.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Maybe the extra 12,000 passengers comes from putting the extra Sunset Limited consist on another route and/or attaching it to an otherwise sold out train?

The Sunset Limited arrives in Maricopa at a more reasonable time of day, which would seem to be a plus, but there is still no official connection to Phoenix, correct? Why can't they restore some sort of official guaranteed connection from Maricopa or Tucson or wherever?

 

[gswager]

The Sunset Limited arrives in Maricopa at a more reasonable time of day, which would seem to be a plus, but there is still no official connection to Phoenix, correct? Why can't they restore some sort of official guaranteed connection from Maricopa or Tucson or wherever?

There is no official connection, even with tracks, to Phoenix. Tracks is on end-line, not "detour". It was torn up years ago. Since SL is on three times a week schedule, it's not feasible for private contractors driving vans/bus to drive between Phoenix and Maricopa on part time basis. Perhaps with SL daily schedule, it will get a better chance for them.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The Sunset Limited arrives in Maricopa at a more reasonable time of day, which would seem to be a plus, but there is still no official connection to Phoenix, correct? Why can't they restore some sort of official guaranteed connection from Maricopa or Tucson or wherever?

There is no official connection, even with tracks, to Phoenix. Tracks is on end-line, not "detour". It was torn up years ago. Since SL is on three times a week schedule, it's not feasible for private contractors driving vans/bus to drive between Phoenix and Maricopa on part time basis. Perhaps with SL daily schedule, it will get a better chance for them.

Torn up? So Amtrak is taking over maintenance of the SC's Lamy segment but was not able (or was not allowed) to take over maintenance of the SL's Phoenix segment? Seems a little backward at first glance. Also, if companies like Greyhound are already running a connection from Tucson to Phoenix why can't Amtrak simply restore that agreement as part of this change? Even if there really is no way to bring back any sort of Phoenix service why can't Amtrak simply take Phoenix off their list of destinations? Seems a little disingenuous to keep touting routes and destinations that no longer exist and have virtually no chance of ever being returned to service.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

The Sunset Limited arrives in Maricopa at a more reasonable time of day, which would seem to be a plus, but there is still no official connection to Phoenix, correct? Why can't they restore some sort of official guaranteed connection from Maricopa or Tucson or wherever?

There is no official connection, even with tracks, to Phoenix. Tracks is on end-line, not "detour". It was torn up years ago. Since SL is on three times a week schedule, it's not feasible for private contractors driving vans/bus to drive between Phoenix and Maricopa on part time basis. Perhaps with SL daily schedule, it will get a better chance for them.

I agree. I can almost guarantee that a connection will be made if the Sunset goes daily. Until then, it's not worth it.

AFAIK the tracks were not technically abandoned or torn up. UP filed for disuse, or whatever you call it, that starts with a d, but the tracks are still there. They are just not required to properly maintain them or run trains on it. Google Maps will prove this as well.

I also completely agree with Amtrak's ridership boost estimates. On a tri-weekly schedule, you would maybe only see 5,000 extra pax, which would still even amount to a nice bit of revenue. I think that a change from 5a to 8a is significant. Being sleep-deprived as is from being a teenager, I can tell you that those hours matter. While the Oakland/Emeryville market is big and all, and has the ridership figures to back it up, the San Jose area is growing in ridership and population. San Jose is the 10th largest city in the country, and since it has only the CS and half the Cap Corridor trains Oakland does, there are no SJ trains and the southern Bay Area market will boost greatly with this connection.

 

[Rick Scholz]

I confirm I find the change through the booking site, but am wondering... when is Amtrak going to update their timetables (online at least) to reflect this change?

 

[jdcnosse]

Yep. Amtrak announce Ld back in late February or somewhere around there that UP is finally allowing them to return to the late night departure from LA. We had a pretty significant 8-page thread you should check out under the Amtrak Rail Discussion category, even if it's a few pages back. This change allows the SL to make a same-day connection from the southbound CS to the SL, which Amyrak figures will bring in about 12,000 pax per year (albeit if this was assuming daily SL/TE). This also allows an equipment consist to be taken out of the rotation by barely changing one of the days of operation and it gives much better times to the two big AZ stops. Another nice change is that the layover in San Antonio for thru-pax is significantly reduced.

I guess I should pay attention here more often lol Been busy with school so I haven't had much time to check the forums, but the time change is exciting because it'll take less time to get back to MI now

 

[PRR 60]

Torn up? So Amtrak is taking over maintenance of the SC's Lamy segment but was not able (or was not allowed) to take over maintenance of the SL's Phoenix segment? Seems a little backward at first glance. Also, if companies like Greyhound are already running a connection from Tucson to Phoenix why can't Amtrak simply restore that agreement as part of this change? Even if there really is no way to bring back any sort of Phoenix service why can't Amtrak simply take Phoenix off their list of destinations? Seems a little disingenuous to keep touting routes and destinations that no longer exist and have virtually no chance of ever being returned to service.

Amtrak was offered the "opportunity" to pay for continued use of the line west of Phoenix, but declined. Phoenix is still an Amtrak destination via Southwest Chief Thruway connection from Flagstaff.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I went to Google Street View and looked at the tracks west of Phoenix. They are still there and look useable.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I went to Google Street View and looked at the tracks west of Phoenix. They are still there and look useable.

I would want to put some work into them before I run pax trains (or any trains FTM) but you are right that they were never torn up.

 

[PRR 60]

I went to Google Street View and looked at the tracks west of Phoenix. They are still there and look useable.

I would want to put some work into them before I run pax trains (or any trains FTM) but you are right that they were never torn up.

I suspect the FRA would agree with you. I don't think there is a Google Street View exemption to the track inspection requirements.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I went to Google Street View and looked at the tracks west of Phoenix. They are still there and look useable.

I would want to put some work into them before I run pax trains (or any trains FTM) but you are right that they were never torn up.

I suspect the FRA would agree with you. I don't think there is a Google Street View exemption to the track inspection requirements.

I know. I was just looking there for the fun of it.

 

[AlanB]

I went to Google Street View and looked at the tracks west of Phoenix. They are still there and look useable.

I would want to put some work into them before I run pax trains (or any trains FTM) but you are right that they were never torn up.

I suspect the FRA would agree with you. I don't think there is a Google Street View exemption to the track inspection requirements.

Not to mention that those views can be several years old.

 

[Donctor]

I suspect the FRA would agree with you. I don't think there is a Google Street View exemption to the track inspection requirements.

Just another way US rail travel is behind the curve.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I went to Google Street View and looked at the tracks west of Phoenix. They are still there and look useable.

I would want to put some work into them before I run pax trains (or any trains FTM) but you are right that they were never torn up.

I suspect the FRA would agree with you. I don't think there is a Google Street View exemption to the track inspection requirements.

Not to mention that those views can be several years old.

Well, regardless of whether they are several years old or no, there would not be a difference. These satellite images would have to have been taken at the earliest in 2007. If UP kicked Amtrak off in 95 and they still weren't torn up in 2007 (more like 2008-11), then they would still be there now. There is no reason why they would wait AT LEAST 12 years, especially considering that UP has recently looked at reinstating the line (I don't have info to cite this, ut I read it recently. I'll look for it and post it soon if I can find it).

 

[alanh]

I see that the city of Maricopa has put up signs warning of the schedule change, and had a meeting about it. Unfortunately, the station location next to the main highway (AZ 347) and the very short platform means the train blocks the highway for up to half an hour (multiple spotting). The current late night schedule isn't so bad, but the new times will be at the beginning and end of morning rush hour.

This also means that if the train arrives early, detraining passengers can't get off because the train holds short of the station to avoid blocking the highway longer than necessary.

Also unfortunately, the commuter bus service from Maricopa has been discontinued, which might have worked for passengers arriving in the morning.

It looks like the current schedule was instituted around 2005 (looking at www.timetables.org). Prior to that, it was similar to the new schedule. I assume the change was in response to UP's meltdown in 2004/05.

The Phoenix west line is inactive and unmaintained between the Palo Verde nuclear plant (just west of Buckeye) to Roll. A cattle operation there uses it as a spur off the main Sunset line. It would need significant work to allow 79mph passenger traffic. Apart from the rail condition, the signals are all still semaphores and would have to be replaced.