Quantcast

The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

Dakota 400

Conductor
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Messages
2,273
but for an instrumentation induced accident, this is a classic. Well worth the 20 minutes on YouTube.
I watched this video on Friday. It was a frightening series of events. I kept thinking, what were the passengers thinking? What were they being told? It made quite an impression on me.
 

PVD

Conductor
AU Supporter
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
4,961
Location
NYC/Queens
Okay, I took the 500 number (389) instead of the 400 number...389 would be "almost 400" but either way, that is a pretty good number built. I only recall being on a 400 once or twice, on US Air. PIT to LGA on a return trip from a symposium that I used the train to get to, and once between Florida and LGA, and I don't remember which direction...
 

Brian Battuello

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
106
Corrected attitude indicator to angle of attack sensor. Also, even in 1996 I was surprised by the amount of Spanish in the air traffic control communications. I've never flown in South America, but I've flown in Mexico and Europe, and in both places very clear English is spoken. Good thing, because mi español es muy malo...
 
Last edited:

Brian Battuello

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
106
And I was surprised that the pilots had such poor basic flying skills. As far as I could tell, the attitude indicator was working perfectly, and there was no reason to believe that the engine instrumentation was faulty. Power plus attitude equals performance. If you have full power and the nose is up 5%, you will accelerate and climb, unless you've done something really stupid with the flaps or speed brakes (see AA Cali). Maybe if you are at really low airspeed and way behind the power curve, but there was no reason to think that was the case.
 
Last edited:

WWW

Train Attendant
AU Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Messages
63
Location
MSP
Frightening that Peru ATC would be using the transponder info from the crippled aircraft instead of using their own instruments.

On another note when the plane has arrived at the gate - ???s why it takes so long for the gate agent to position the jetway - - -
It is to avoid hitting those pitot tubes - when boarding a flight you may be able to see them image below:

Pitot tube LINK:
pitot tube - AT&T Yahoo Search Results

Pitot Tube.jpg


Returning this back to the Railroad aspect of this forum - engineers and conductors don't have to worry about altitude but speed that can
be concerning staying on the tracks. Always that Safety thing !
 

WWW

Train Attendant
AU Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Messages
63
Location
MSP
And I was surprised that the pilots had such poor basic flying skills. As far as I could tell, the attitude indicator was working perfectly, and there was no reason to believe that the engine instrumentation was faulty. Power plus attitude equals performance. If you have full power and the nose is up 5%, you will accelerate and climb, unless you've done something really stupid with the flaps or speed brakes (see AA Cali). Maybe if you are at really low airspeed and way behind the power curve, but there was no reason to think that was the case.
At the end of that YouTube video the explanation for the crash was in cleaning the aircraft surfaces the pitot tubes were masked off with non-standard
tape to prevent cleaning fluid intrusion. The non-standard tape (duct tape) instead of blaze orange was substituted and not noticed in the pre-flight
walk around of the crew Captain or FO. The pilots had plenty of flight hours - Captain 22k the FO 8k I would not guess poor flying skills but perhaps
complacency in getting simulator emergency experience to just simply fly the aircraft when all else has failed -- that and the Peru ATC having a hand in
using the transponder info instead of their own radar/instruments.
 

caravanman

Conductor
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
3,814
Location
Nottingham, England.
There are hundreds of genuine pilot to air traffic control recordings on youtube. It surprised me just how many flights do suffer from "unexpected issues". Fortunately we only get to hear about the most serious outcomes...
 

Brian Battuello

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
106
Peru ATC having a hand in
using the transponder info instead of their own radar/instruments.
To be fair to ATC, the transponder data is the only source of altitude they have. Primary radar only detects location, not elevation. ATC training is very different than IFR pilot training, they are 98% fixated on keeping the dots separated, not flying the plane. In a perfect world, the pilots would have turned off the Mode/C (altitude) feature so that ATC wouldn't have erroneous information. But that was the least of their problems.

Another of the many things the pilots should have realized is that the ground proximity system could probably be trusted, as it doesn't use air data at all, it has a separate radar on the plane that shoots down and back. "Terrain/Pull Up" means exactly that. Full power, nose at 5% and clean wings.

caravanman is completely correct. To have a really good screwup, many things have to go wrong in a row. Break the chain, and the flight goes back to normal.
 

Dakota 400

Conductor
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Messages
2,273
The non-standard tape (duct tape) instead of blaze orange was substituted and not noticed in the pre-flight
walk around of the crew Captain or FO.
As I understood it, this was an intermediate stop for this flight before flying to its destination. It was not clear to me whether the Captain or FO boarded the flight at that stop or not. If they didn't. would there be a pre-flight walk around? It was also well after dark; maybe the darkness might have prevented someone from noticing was amiss during a pre-flight walkaround?
 

Brian Battuello

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
106
I was wondering why maintenance was working on the pitot static system on a routine stopover. It seems that the 757 they normally flew on this route was taken out of service in Lima some days before. An older 727 was used to fly to Miami and then back to Lima. The 757 had been fixed, and they decided to clean the outside of the plane since they had the time. All the passengers and the flight crew left the 727 in Lima and boarded the 757, which had the pitot static tubes blocked for the cleaning, and never removed. Several of the regular mechanics and the supervisor were not on duty, and the job was done by less experienced people and never properly inspected. While the captain did the walk around, it is not surprising that he didn't notice the tape high on the plane in the blackness at 12:30am. Again, accident chain.
 

caravanman

Conductor
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
3,814
Location
Nottingham, England.
I think the engines on the 737 Max have a flat lower edge on the outer cowl, to air ground clearance? I don't know if that is 100% correct? Maybe in any case, folk would like to know what aircraft it is before they walk out to board, of course... :D
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
26,111
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
I think the engines on the 737 Max have a flat lower edge on the outer cowl, to air ground clearance? I don't know if that is 100% correct? Maybe in any case, folk would like to know what aircraft it is before they walk out to board, of course... :D
That flatness has existed in all 737s second gen onward AFAIR.

There are some folks, by far not even a good plurality who would like to know after a year of safe operation has passed.

Looking at the engine cowling won;t be the way to know that. With a little trained eye the winglet would be a better guide. The MAX winglet is different from the Scimitar winglets used in pre-MAX 737s.

Most American carriers of repute will identify them in their schedules, and many will allow change of booking without penalty at least for a while to those that wish to remove themselves from a MAX flown flight. That is not to say that there won't be other airlines that will attempt to obfuscate.
 

B757Guy

Service Attendant
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
121
Happy Thanksgiving a bit early. Both my airline, and the one my fiancé flies for operate the MAX. In fact, my fiancé has moved to the 737 from the Airbus, due to the impact her airline has had from Covid19. She feels that the changes Boeing has made, along with the training she has received, that the aircraft is a safe as any other in the fleet to fly. Her sentiments have been echoed by a few of my friends at my airline, who also feel that the MAX is perfectly safe.

Safe travels to you all. I actually get to be home this Thanksgiving, but sadly its due to the impact Covid19 has had. :( Lets hope this time next year, the world is on the mend from all of this, and we can all safely travel again.
 

Devil's Advocate

Sarcastic Misanthrope
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
11,704
Location
Texas
Problem is letting a computer fly the airplane - - -When push comes to shove - All hell breaks loose -
DISENGAGE THE COMPUTER (Completely) - AND FLY THE DARN AIRPLANE MANUALLY - the ole fashion way !
The problem is not that computers are inherently unsafe; it's that both the computer and the pilot need to agree on who is in control and can override the other. These days a commercial pilot flying manually is still instructing a computer on what he wants the plane to do. There is no practical method for one or two humans to operate a modern commercial aircraft without substantial computer assistance.

So the problems are sorted, which is great news. Does anyone actually know why it took so long?
This particular aircraft may be sorted but relatively little has been done to fix the presumption of safety and the suppression of dissent that allowed a serious design flaw to be approved and deployed in the first place.

There are hundreds of genuine pilot to air traffic control recordings on youtube. It surprised me just how many flights do suffer from "unexpected issues".
In general commercial flying remains incredibly safe and hundreds of anomalous recordings are a rounding error compared to the total number of uneventful flights. I flew UA for many years and never heard anything remotely dangerous on CH9. Now that dash cams are becoming more common laymen are able to see what statisticians have known for decades.
 
Last edited:

WWW

Train Attendant
AU Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Messages
63
Location
MSP
I appreciate your response to my post. Thank you. As you said, one event leading to another in an accident chain that results in a tragedy.
A routine stop-over would not defer the cleaning degreasing whatever of the fuselage - it is a simple power flush of the exterior surfaces
to reduce the greasy drag potential and the removing of those unsightly blue degerm streaks from the restroom overflows etc.
Those pitot tubes however do not like to be fouled rendering them useless therefore they are capped with a bottle cap type device of
significant color that is to be removed before flight. What was used here was ordinary duct tape to accomplish the capping plugging of
the tubes. The duct tape has the same silver color as the fuselage and pitot tubes and was not noticed in the pilot walk around before flight.

Yes a combination of events leading to bad decisions actions leading to the total loss of the airplane and MORE IMPORTANTLY LIVES !
 

leemell

Conductor
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
1,540
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I think the engines on the 737 Max have a flat lower edge on the outer cowl, to air ground clearance? I don't know if that is 100% correct? Maybe in any case, folk would like to know what aircraft it is before they walk out to board, of course... :D
737s have always had the flattened cowl since the very first models.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
26,111
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1

PVD

Conductor
AU Supporter
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
4,961
Location
NYC/Queens
The flattened cowl originated with the changeover to the CFM-56, on the 300. 100/200 were P&W JT8D The shape came about because of the need to relocate certain equipment from the bottom to the sides, and to try and gain some clearance to avoid FOD even with the larger dismeter.
 
Top