The Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle Daily Service

[Green Maned Lion]

Dear god, we have a bunch of nutball traditionalists on here who want name trains for the sake of it all.

 

[had8ley]

"Buzz" is a four letter word...RR'ers call it sand house probably because that's all it's worth~ a grain of sand. I seriously doubt we see Chicago to LA this year. Yeah, I know, there were those that jumped on this when it first was discussed; I even think some had called trying to make a reservation !!!

 

[Donctor]

"Buzz" is a four letter word...RR'ers call it sand house probably because that's all it's worth~ a grain of sand. I seriously doubt we see Chicago to LA this year. Yeah, I know, there were those that jumped on this when it first was discussed; I even think some had called trying to make a reservation !!!

"I want to be on the inaugural run!!!"

 

[Palmland]

Nothing wrong with a daytime Sunset from New Orleans to San Antonio. My frequent trips on the Palmetto are an enjoyable ride - in business class. So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.

The CCC would be perfect for that train, as they would on the Cardinal, if Amtrak does in fact upgrade it to a Superliner train to DC. I rode in one on the Capitol and it was fine, but a real waste not to be using the nice counter (bar?) and seating area in the lounge end.

 

[cpamtfan]

So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.

Um, I know there is a slight chance they'll do this, but in all reality it probably won't.

 

[George Harris]

Nothing wrong with a daytime Sunset from New Orleans to San Antonio. My frequent trips on the Palmetto are an enjoyable ride - in business class. So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.

Huge difference in run time versus road time on the two routes.

Palmetto: 829 miles in 15 hours, right at 55 mph, including all stops.

Sunset Route: 573 miles in 15 hours, right at 38 mph, including stops. Admittedly a day train could probably be faster

According to Mapquest, the drive time and distance New York to Savannah is 13h19m and 813 miles. In reality if you do any stops at all, the train can be the faster way.

Also according to Mapuest, the drive time and distance from New Orleans to San Antonio is 8h39m and 545 miles. The situation is made worse by the connectivity to New Yrok from places north and east of it to the complete lack of the same into New Orleans, particularly given anyone going to western LA or to any Texas point would bypass New Orleans altogether by going around the north side of the Lake on I-12.

Plus there are two other trains on the Plametto route, so if daytime both ways is not your cup of tea, you can go one way overnight.

 

[jis]

Huge difference in run time versus road time on the two routes. Palmetto: 829 miles in 15 hours, right at 55 mph, including all stops.

Sunset Route: 573 miles in 15 hours, right at 38 mph, including stops. Admittedly a day train could probably be faster

So true. Basically it is comparing what is one of the fastest LD trains with one of the slowest.

 

[henryj]

Nothing wrong with a daytime Sunset from New Orleans to San Antonio. My frequent trips on the Palmetto are an enjoyable ride - in business class. So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.

Huge difference in run time versus road time on the two routes.

Palmetto: 829 miles in 15 hours, right at 55 mph, including all stops.

Sunset Route: 573 miles in 15 hours, right at 38 mph, including stops. Admittedly a day train could probably be faster

According to Mapquest, the drive time and distance New York to Savannah is 13h19m and 813 miles. In reality if you do any stops at all, the train can be the faster way.

Also according to Mapuest, the drive time and distance from New Orleans to San Antonio is 8h39m and 545 miles. The situation is made worse by the connectivity to New Yrok from places north and east of it to the complete lack of the same into New Orleans, particularly given anyone going to western LA or to any Texas point would bypass New Orleans altogether by going around the north side of the Lake on I-12.

Plus there are two other trains on the Plametto route, so if daytime both ways is not your cup of tea, you can go one way overnight.

I make the same argument about the NOL to Orlando extension of the Sunset and everyone thinks that one doesn't matter. You can drive NOL to Orlando in about 10 hours or less. It took almost 20 by train. There are many day trains run by Amtrak that are slower than driving. People ride them anyway. Once the train goes daily ridership will pick up substantially. Currently, running only three times a week, it's like no service at all and the times are atrocious, particularly for Houston. The changes proposed will be a breath of fresh air down here and I think the new train will be well patronized..........that is if Amtrak lets people know about it. Currently, most people in Houston don't even know we have rail service.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have heard numerous assurances that if a through sleeper is warranted, there will be a through sleeper, at least tri-weekly. However, most people at Amtrak think they will lose little or no ridership due to the loss of a sleeper (even the stubborn rail fans will eventually ride it anyway) and will gain a lot of ridership due to the presence of trains at important markets during better calling times more frequently, and that is just between SAS and NOL.

They also expect to pick up considerable ridership due to the daily operation of the Texas Eagle all the way to LA. They sincerely think that this will increase financial and ridership performance along the entirety of the two routes, and lay the foundation for a financially sensible extension of the CONO to JAX or ORL.

I tend to agree with them. I think that anyone who disagrees needs to spend less time reading Great American Streamliners and more time looking at modern day transit patterns.

 

[AlanB]

I have heard numerous assurances that if a through sleeper is warranted, there will be a through sleeper, at least tri-weekly. However, most people at Amtrak think they will lose little or no ridership due to the loss of a sleeper (even the stubborn rail fans will eventually ride it anyway) and will gain a lot of ridership due to the presence of trains at important markets during better calling times more frequently, and that is just between SAS and NOL.

That's funny, as not only have I not heard such assurances, but the entire reason for this plan according to all documents that Amtrak has released is the fact that they don't have enough sleepers to make the Sunset daily on it's own. If they can't make the Sunset daily with sleepers, while continuing the 3 day a week through sleepers off the Eagle, then there is no way that they can do the opposite.

And if they can do it, then there is no reason to kill the Sunset, as we can then have the best of both worlds. A daily Sunset and 3 day a week service on the Eagle to LA.

They also expect to pick up considerable ridership due to the daily operation of the Texas Eagle all the way to LA. They sincerely think that this will increase financial and ridership performance along the entirety of the two routes, and lay the foundation for a financially sensible extension of the CONO to JAX or ORL.

I'm quite certain that they will pick up ridership west of San Antonio. I have no doubt of that.

I'm far from convinced however that they will pick up any ridership east of SAS, and in fact am worried that they will lose both ridership and revenue on that end. And I'm not convinced that the gains west of SAS will offset the loss east of SAS.

I think that anyone who disagrees needs to spend less time reading Great American Streamliners and more time looking at modern day transit patterns.

Not only have I never riden a pre-Amtrak LD train, I don't own that book and have never read it either. And I do look at modern day transit patterns all the time.

 

[rtabern]

Nothing wrong with a daytime Sunset from New Orleans to San Antonio. My frequent trips on the Palmetto are an enjoyable ride - in business class. So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.
The CCC would be perfect for that train, as they would on the Cardinal, if Amtrak does in fact upgrade it to a Superliner train to DC. I rode in one on the Capitol and it was fine, but a real waste not to be using the nice counter (bar?) and seating area in the lounge end.

I guess more people have a tolerance for coach that I do. Ok, it's not horrible... much better than the bus or sitting in those uncomfortable airplane seats... however I don't think personally I would want to spend 15 hours in coach either.

I ride the train several times a month down to Lincoln and out to Galesburg. Going down one way I have to ride in coach Horizon equipment (I always will ride back the other way on the Eagle or SWC so I can sit in the SSL) -- and honestly after about 5 or 6 hours in coach I am at my limits... especially on a totally packed train full of college students.

I couldnt imagine a 15 hour trip... well, if I "had to" travel SAS-NOL I would do it... but I would never take it "for fun" or as part of a vacation which is the main reason I do Amtrak.

 

[NativeSon5859]

When all is said and done, I hope this doesn't happen. I'm glad that UP hasn't jumped on board as of yet. All Amtrak has to do is make #2 run at its old, 11:00pm-ish departure time out of LAX, and I'd be a happy camper. Eventually down the road, perhaps additional weekly frequencies can be added. But the loss of the sleeper between SAS-NOL is ridiculous.

 

[henryj]

I'm far from convinced however that they will pick up any ridership east of SAS, and in fact am worried that they will lose both ridership and revenue on that end. And I'm not convinced that the gains west of SAS will offset the loss east of SAS.

I hear this all the time. And things like I won't ride it without a sleeper. Think about what you are saying. Running daily means four more trains a week and now at reasonable times. There is no way they will loose ridership. They can't help but gain ridership. Currently the consist from NOL is 6 cars, sleeper, trans-dorm, diner, SSL, and two coaches. The two coaches have a capacity of at least 130 persons. The sleeper never more than 30 since many of the roomettes are single occupied. So if now you are running a two or three coach train with business class and no sleeper you are probably increasing weekly capacity 90 to 180 percent. It's all a day trip. Many of the passengers will be going part way such as Houston to SAS or Houston to NOL which is not a 15 hour trip. The proposed schedule is 8am to 10pm in each direction. Most people would not opt for an expensive sleeper anyway. The only thing that could cause this to fail is a lack of promotion by Amtrak. It's a great leap forward for this route. Finally reliable daily service at reasonable times. The service can't help but attract more passengers, many who probably have never used the train before. What they can do if the equipment is available is add an additional sleeper and coach in San Antonio to the Eagle. Running round trips from SAS to LA would require less equipment to maintain daily service, probably three or four cars instead of five or six needed to go all the way to NOL.

 

[George Harris]

Nothing wrong with a daytime Sunset from New Orleans to San Antonio. My frequent trips on the Palmetto are an enjoyable ride - in business class. So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.

Huge difference in run time versus road time on the two routes.

Palmetto: 829 miles in 15 hours, right at 55 mph, including all stops.

Sunset Route: 573 miles in 15 hours, right at 38 mph, including stops. Admittedly a day train could probably be faster

According to Mapquest, the drive time and distance New York to Savannah is 13h19m and 813 miles. In reality if you do any stops at all, the train can be the faster way.

Also according to Mapuest, the drive time and distance from New Orleans to San Antonio is 8h39m and 545 miles. The situation is made worse by the connectivity to New Yrok from places north and east of it to the complete lack of the same into New Orleans, particularly given anyone going to western LA or to any Texas point would bypass New Orleans altogether by going around the north side of the Lake on I-12.

Plus there are two other trains on the Plametto route, so if daytime both ways is not your cup of tea, you can go one way overnight.

I make the same argument about the NOL to Orlando extension of the Sunset and everyone thinks that one doesn't matter. You can drive NOL to Orlando in about 10 hours or less. It took almost 20 by train. There are many day trains run by Amtrak that are slower than driving. People ride them anyway. Once the train goes daily ridership will pick up substantially. Currently, running only three times a week, it's like no service at all and the times are atrocious, particularly for Houston. The changes proposed will be a breath of fresh air down here and I think the new train will be well patronized..........that is if Amtrak lets people know about it. Currently, most people in Houston don't even know we have rail service.

Yes, the Sunset east was not really that fast. However, there is far more to a erstored Sunset East than New Orleans to Orlando passengers. Those may be fairly few. New Orleans or points east to Jacksonville and on to points northeast would probably far exceed New Orleans to Orlando. The comparison between end to end dirving and train times is somewhat of a "straw man" type of arguement.

When it was running, apparently the Sunset East had creditable ridership into the time that huge lateness arriving from west New Orleans hurt it severly.

With the requirements for PTC coming into play, the train could now be running up to 79 mph on much of the "Dark" territory between Flomaton AL adn Tallahassee FL, whic would allow some speedup.

 

[Palmland]

Nothing wrong with a daytime Sunset from New Orleans to San Antonio. My frequent trips on the Palmetto are an enjoyable ride - in business class. So, I do hope Amtrak figures out how to take a couple Superliner coaches and put nice 2/1 seating in them with wif-fi and a few other amenities.

Huge difference in run time versus road time on the two routes.

Palmetto: 829 miles in 15 hours, right at 55 mph, including all stops.

Sunset Route: 573 miles in 15 hours, right at 38 mph, including stops. Admittedly a day train could probably be faster

According to Mapquest, the drive time and distance New York to Savannah is 13h19m and 813 miles. In reality if you do any stops at all, the train can be the faster way.

Also according to Mapuest, the drive time and distance from New Orleans to San Antonio is 8h39m and 545 miles. The situation is made worse by the connectivity to New Yrok from places north and east of it to the complete lack of the same into New Orleans, particularly given anyone going to western LA or to any Texas point would bypass New Orleans altogether by going around the north side of the Lake on I-12.

Plus there are two other trains on the Plametto route, so if daytime both ways is not your cup of tea, you can go one way overnight.

So true George. But it's the hours on board, not the miles, that determine whether you can tolerate coach. As noted, I could handle a daytime Sunset from San Antonio - if they make an effort at a decent business class. Perhaps use two of the CCC cars. One unchanged for coach passengers as their lounge as well as dining for all and the other half lounge and, where the table are, replace with business class seats. That would help dispose of those cars pretty quickly.

 

[AlanB]

I'm far from convinced however that they will pick up any ridership east of SAS, and in fact am worried that they will lose both ridership and revenue on that end. And I'm not convinced that the gains west of SAS will offset the loss east of SAS.

I hear this all the time. And things like I won't ride it without a sleeper. Think about what you are saying. Running daily means four more trains a week and now at reasonable times. There is no way they will loose ridership. They can't help but gain ridership. Currently the consist from NOL is 6 cars, sleeper, trans-dorm, diner, SSL, and two coaches. The two coaches have a capacity of at least 130 persons. The sleeper never more than 30 since many of the roomettes are single occupied. So if now you are running a two or three coach train with business class and no sleeper you are probably increasing weekly capacity 90 to 180 percent. It's all a day trip. Many of the passengers will be going part way such as Houston to SAS or Houston to NOL which is not a 15 hour trip. The proposed schedule is 8am to 10pm in each direction. Most people would not opt for an expensive sleeper anyway. The only thing that could cause this to fail is a lack of promotion by Amtrak. It's a great leap forward for this route. Finally reliable daily service at reasonable times. The service can't help but attract more passengers, many who probably have never used the train before.

Henry, with the utmost respect, I have thought about what I'm saying quite carefully. I've also gone over all the numbers available to me from the prior years dating back to 2003. I remain very concerned that ridership may well drop a bit despite the daily service, and I'm almost convinced that revenue will definitely drop from the numbers that I'm seeing.

While not a perfect example let's look at the Palmetto & Silver Palm. It's not perfect because both trains have always been daily, but one parallel is that the Palmetto serves markets during daylight hours that the Palm served at oh'dark hundred. The Palmetto currently after 4 years has only increased ridership over the Silver Palm by about 31,000 riders. Most of that can be attributed to the normal annual increases in ridership that Amtrak has been seeing; and it serves a much larger market. Revenue hasn't done much better and the Palm's numbers were before Amtrak instituted its higher sleeper prices and better revenue management practices. Compared to the Silvers however, the Palmetto's revenue is about 1/3rd that of the Meteor and a little less than 1/2 that of the Star.

In all fairness I do have to point out that expenses are also lower, which is why the Palmetto is now one of the better performing trains when looking that aspect of things. On the other hand, the Palmetto also gets to share many expenses with the other Silver's, something that the Sunset (both current & daily) doesn't get to do.

What they can do if the equipment is available is add an additional sleeper and coach in San Antonio to the Eagle. Running round trips from SAS to LA would require less equipment to maintain daily service, probably three or four cars instead of five or six needed to go all the way to NOL.

Wait, now I'm confused here. Are you suggesting that they just run a new train from SAS to LAX? As in, cut the Sunset back to SAS and don't extend the Eagle? Otherwise, why would they want to add a coach and a sleeper to the Eagle at SAS if it's running through?

And if you're proposing that they add a coach & sleeper to the run through Eagle from the truncated Sunset, well then were back to why bother to kill the Sunset at all. If Amtrak can find the needed coaches and sleepers to tack onto the Eagle for the western portion, then they also have enough equipment to just run the Sunset daily and can continue to terminate the Eagle in SAS.

 

[henryj]

Henry, with the utmost respect, I have thought about what I'm saying quite carefully. I've also gone over all the numbers available to me from the prior years dating back to 2003. I remain very concerned that ridership may well drop a bit despite the daily service, and I'm almost convinced that revenue will definitely drop from the numbers that I'm seeing.
And if you're proposing that they add a coach & sleeper to the run through Eagle from the truncated Sunset, well then were back to why bother to kill the Sunset at all. If Amtrak can find the needed coaches and sleepers to tack onto the Eagle for the western portion, then they also have enough equipment to just run the Sunset daily and can continue to terminate the Eagle in SAS.

Well Alan we will just have to wait and see on this one as we will never agree. It remains to be seen whether or not the UP will even cooperate. It means many more passenger trains to clog up their freight railroad which is at capacity already. As for the sleepers, I was just suggesting that they keep a sleeper and coach in SAS to tack on to the Eagle for peak periods to pick up passengers coming over from NOL. There is a presidence for this now as in an earlier post it was determined that a sleeper lays over for the Eagle at certain times, so the facilities exist in SAS to do something like that. I think when I counted up the equipment there was a surplus sleeper or two and they might eventually get a few more from the rebuilds going on. It would be better of course if the stub trains could carry through cars from NOL. I remain hopeful that something positive will happen to this service as what we have now is just an abomination.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I remain fascinated that increasing service on the NOL-LAX routing from tri-weekly to daily can be construed by otherwise intelligent people as "killing" a train.

A daily train is useful transportation along a route served by other mechanisms. A tri-weekly train is a tourist curiosity. This service modification is turning the tourist curiosity that is the Sunset Limited into a realistic transportation alternative. Mr. Burden, I am willing to bet you good money that not only will the ridership between NOL and SAS increase, but will do so explosively, when this modification goes into effect.

I also expect, and am willing to bet, that the in total amount of money lost by operating the Sunset and Texas Eagle in their current form is substantially more than the SAS-NOL and CHI-SAS-LAX trains combined.

 

[AlanB]

Well Alan we will just have to wait and see on this one as we will never agree. It remains to be seen whether or not the UP will even cooperate. It means many more passenger trains to clog up their freight railroad which is at capacity already. As for the sleepers, I was just suggesting that they keep a sleeper and coach in SAS to tack on to the Eagle for peak periods to pick up passengers coming over from NOL. There is a presidence for this now as in an earlier post it was determined that a sleeper lays over for the Eagle at certain times, so the facilities exist in SAS to do something like that. I think when I counted up the equipment there was a surplus sleeper or two and they might eventually get a few more from the rebuilds going on. It would be better of course if the stub trains could carry through cars from NOL. I remain hopeful that something positive will happen to this service as what we have now is just an abomination.

Thanks for the explanation on the sleepers!

And I really and sincerely hope that I'm wrong, as if I'm right it could well be the death knell for the Sunset or what's left of it. I'm not trying to be difficult or obstinate on this, but we've already seen Amtrak kill off part of the Sunset with a little help from Katrina, and the Sunset and its name are an albatross around their neck. Everyone points to the Sunset as the big money looser.

I for one am not sure that the market between NOL & HOU and HOU & SAS is there, even with daily service instead of the crappy 3 day a week service. Much less that it is enough to sustain things with the partial loss of through coach & sleeper passengers to destinations west of SAS that will occur when people are not only forced to change trains after 11:00 PM. And the revenue from those sleepers is substantial.

I also don't see Amtrak spending mega bucks, if any, advertising things if it indeed does happen. TEMPO perhaps may, and who knows maybe even Texas DOT will.

I'm sorry but I just don't have a good feeling about this plan based upon what I'm seeing and have access to in terms of older Sunset numbers. Were we talking about a daily Sunset with through cars and sleeper(s), I would have no reservations and would be behind it 100%. But I just don't see the truncated Sunset becoming the next California service or the next Downeaster, or any other examples like that. Maybe I'm wrong, and I truly hope so.

 

[jis]

I also don't see Amtrak spending mega bucks, if any, advertising things if it indeed does happen. TEMPO perhaps may, and who knows maybe even Texas DOT will.

I think what is dearly needed is a SLeMPO or something for Sunset Limited that will play the same role for that train that TEMPO plays for the Texas Eagle.

 

[delvyrails]

When the train goes daily, the LA connection with the Coast Starlight needs to be restored in both directions. Currently the missed connection makes travel between the Bay Area and Southern Arizona inconvenient via Amtrak.

That's one of Amtrak's largest currently-unserved LD travel markets. It's in the low thousands daily. Amtrak should enjoy its share.

 

[Donctor]

As for the sleepers, I was just suggesting that they keep a sleeper and coach in SAS to tack on to the Eagle for peak periods to pick up passengers coming over from NOL. There is a presidence for this now as in an earlier post it was determined that a sleeper lays over for the Eagle at certain times, so the facilities exist in SAS to do something like that. I think when I counted up the equipment there was a surplus sleeper or two and they might eventually get a few more from the rebuilds going on. It would be better of course if the stub trains could carry through cars from NOL.

What exactly is "peak period" on the Sunset/Eagle? If peak is winter, I imagine whatever surplus sleepers are around would be better used as the three DEN sleepers on the CZ and, if there are five additional ones, as an extra sleeper on the Empire Builder. The CZ sleepers may not be an issue, as it certainly seems possible that the sleepers required for DEN (and a fourth sleeper from CHI) are added to the CS during the CS's peak.

 

[BlakeTyner]

I think what is dearly needed is a SLeMPO or something for Sunset Limited that will play the same role for that train that TEMPO plays for the Texas Eagle.

There is (or was) an organization called SMART for the Sunset, but I'm not sure what happened there.

 

[henryj]

I think what is dearly needed is a SLeMPO or something for Sunset Limited that will play the same role for that train that TEMPO plays for the Texas Eagle.

There is (or was) an organization called SMART for the Sunset, but I'm not sure what happened there.

Well Blake, I can tell you what happenned. SMART is dominated by Florida people that have blinders on and can only see the route between NOL and Florida. They apparently don't care a hoot about anything west of NOL. They have done nothing to promote or improve the existing service. All they do is gripe about the loss of the Sunset Limited east. The group still exists and has a group site on Yahoo. If you go read it you will see what I mean. They don't care about daily service or restoring service to Phoenix or improving the timing to connect with the CS, nothing. All they care about is restoring the tri-weekly Sunset to Florida. They have become irrevelant in the big picture. Amtrak reps will not meet with them or attend their meetings. Originally, NARP indorsed them, but now just ignores them. Based on Amtrak's stated future plans the should change their name to CONOMART as they will have nothing to do with the new daily service on the Eagle/Sunset. When they threw us under the bus, we replace them with the SUNSET LIMITED WEST group on Google.

http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west?hl=en

 

[BlakeTyner]

Well Blake, I can tell you what happenned. SMART is dominated by Florida people that have blinders on and can only see the route between NOL and Florida. They apparently don't care a hoot about anything west of NOL. They have done nothing to promote or improve the existing service. All they do is gripe about the loss of the Sunset Limited east. The group still exists and has a group site on Yahoo. If you go read it you will see what I mean. They don't care about daily service or restoring service to Phoenix or improving the timing to connect with the CS, nothing. All they care about is restoring the tri-weekly Sunset to Florida. They have become irrevelant in the big picture. Amtrak reps will not meet with them or attend their meetings. Originally, NARP indorsed them, but now just ignores them. Based on Amtrak's stated future plans the should change their name to CONOMART as they will have nothing to do with the new daily service on the Eagle/Sunset. When they threw us under the bus, we replace them with the SUNSET LIMITED WEST group on Google.
http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west?hl=en

I remember you telling me about that, and I joined the Google group a while back (thank you for the invite, BTW.) I think you're probably right about CONOMART--that seems to be the most realistic option for restoring service to Florida--assuming the Sunset/Eagle change happens, and I'm convinced that it will.