The Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle Daily Service

[NativeSon5859]

SMART is mostly interested in getting service restored between New Orleans and Orlando...and who can blame them for that? That's not to say that they've been successful, but they have, or have had, some very knowledgeable people in the group. Amtrak probably decided to stop meeting with them because the company probably ran out of excuses as to why the Sunset East hasn't been restored. SMART probably got the cold shoulder for trying to keep Amtrak honest...but to their credit, at least they tried to get things going and spur some interest along the coast. And that's not an easy thing to do in states like LA, MS, AL...where passenger rail isn't exactly a high priority. As for the daily Sunset, I'm mostly concerned with how this affects New Orleans, and I am not convinced for a second that this will be a big benefit to the city. But I've already explained my opinion in previous threads so I won't go there again.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

My experience is that the SMART people aren't very smart in that they don't recognize politics and how to work around them. They just sit and whine and ask for something Amtrak thinks is a bad idea, citing numbers that don't make sense. They have come to look like total morons.

Doesn't matter if you are or not. Sounding like a bunch of one-track loons gets you ignored. As a certain group in Essex county has been learning recently.

 

[NativeSon5859]

My experience is that the SMART people aren't very smart in that they don't recognize politics and how to work around them. They just sit and whine and ask for something Amtrak thinks is a bad idea, citing numbers that don't make sense. They have come to look like total morons.
Doesn't matter if you are or not. Sounding like a bunch of one-track loons gets you ignored. As a certain group in Essex county has been learning recently.

What's your experience with them if you don't mind me asking? I know a few of them and the one's I know are pretty much the exact opposite as what you say they are. Just curious. FYI, when the group was active, at least for a time, they did more than just "sit and whine and ask"...they actually came up with ideas. The fact that Amtrak didn't agree with them is another story. Everyone knows Amtrak botched the whole Sunset East ordeal and the company has sure looked liked total morons from time to time with the lame excuses given and what not.

 

[DowneasterPassenger]

When the train goes daily, the LA connection with the Coast Starlight needs to be restored in both directions. Currently the missed connection makes travel between the Bay Area and Southern Arizona inconvenient via Amtrak.
That's one of Amtrak's largest currently-unserved LD travel markets. It's in the low thousands daily. Amtrak should enjoy its share.

When you say "restored", did that connection ever exist in the first place?

WB you can make a connection from the SL to either the Coast Starlight or the San Joaquins. EB is where you run into having to spend the night in LA. I've always thought that the solution was to add the Coast Daylight or another late-night San Joaquin.

 

[delvyrails]

When the train goes daily, the LA connection with the Coast Starlight needs to be restored in both directions. Currently the missed connection makes travel between the Bay Area and Southern Arizona inconvenient via Amtrak.
That's one of Amtrak's largest currently-unserved LD travel markets. It's in the low thousands daily. Amtrak should enjoy its share.

When you say "restored", did that connection ever exist in the first place?

WB you can make a connection from the SL to either the Coast Starlight or the San Joaquins. EB is where you run into having to spend the night in LA. I've always thought that the solution was to add the Coast Daylight or another late-night San Joaquin.

Before the SP/UP freight congestion issue. the old Sunset Limited schedules (pre-8am Los Angeles westbound arrival, post-11pm eastbound depature) did connect in both directions with the Coast Starlight.

Long before Amtrak's time when there were two or more daily trains in each direction on each route, there were additional connections available at Los Angeles. Finally if you go back a century or more, the Sunset Limited itself operated as a New Orleans-Los Angeles-San Francisco through train, which linked SP's eastern terminus with its headquarters city.

 

[Donctor]

Long before Amtrak's time when there were two or more daily trains in each direction on each route, there were additional connections available at Los Angeles. Finally if you go back a century or more, the Sunset Limited itself operated as a New Orleans-Los Angeles-San Francisco through train, which linked SP's eastern terminus with its headquarters city.

I believe it was NOL-LAX-SFO until 1930-ish, and once again 1935-ish through 1941 or 1942. From the little I've read on SP, the LAX-SFO leg was suspended because of the Depression, then restored when the economy improved slightly, and then eliminated when WWII started.

 

[Donctor]

FYI, when the group was active, at least for a time, they did more than just "sit and whine and ask"...they actually came up with ideas. The fact that Amtrak didn't agree with them is another story. Everyone knows Amtrak botched the whole Sunset East ordeal and the company has sure looked liked total morons from time to time with the lame excuses given and what not.

I don't know if I agree that Amtrak "botched the whole Sunset East ordeal," or anything similar. Yes, Amtrak should have come out and said "we don't have the funding necessary to run this train without cutting something else, and even if we do, we can't/don't want to dedicate our limited resources to restoring a service that will cause us to lose money that won't be recovered by fares paid by whatever passengers we gain." But it's not like their intentions were unclear.

As it stands right now, Amtrak needs no additional equipment to run the Sunset to Orlando. The Sunset uses the same number of consists it used when it ran to Florida; the dwell time in NOL was the only real equipment change. (Of course, I'm ignoring the loss of access to Sanford.)

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What's your experience with them if you don't mind me asking? I know a few of them and the one's I know are pretty much the exact opposite as what you say they are. Just curious. FYI, when the group was active, at least for a time, they did more than just "sit and whine and ask"...they actually came up with ideas. The fact that Amtrak didn't agree with them is another story. Everyone knows Amtrak botched the whole Sunset East ordeal and the company has sure looked liked total morons from time to time with the lame excuses given and what not.

My experience is listening to their tripe. I've read so much of it from so many different sources, it makes me want to puke. They came up with ideas, which honestly made limited sense given reality, and then kept harping on them. They were not willing to compromise, discuss, or even listen to what Amtrak had to say on the matter.

As for how Amtrak looks? Not like a moron. They look, perhaps, like a callous enterprise running their business by financial numbers and political considerations, ignoring an area of the country that has historically not given a hoot about their existence, and placing their money in areas where they think they will be successful.

That's sensible, not moronic. It just happens to suck for you. I'm not saying that I don't want a train running on the Gulf Coast route. I just am tired, and I know of people in Amtrak who agree with me, of people who sit around complaining about the loss of this direct route or this run through train, about the loss of the great hoard of people who wanted to travel between the boring deserts of the Southwest, across the boring kudzu of the gulf coast, and into the dilapidated swampy commercialization of Florida in three days time when they could bypass all this marvelous scenery quickly using other methods.

These nutballs are, clearly, the meat of intercity rail travel. Yeah, that's like saying the people that fly to Russia to spend 7 days running the Rossiya are the meat and potatoes of Russian State Railways business.

Amtrak knows that operating the service in other ways that capitalize on the intermediate traffic is how they are going to financially grow this train. Run through sleepers would be nice. Maybe if they have the equipment to place them on these trains a few times a week, it would make sense.

There are 4848 miles of track that, prior to Katrina, covered the Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle, and City of New Orleans. Instead of trying to preserve a train JAX-LAX hard headedly, they are better off figuring the best combination of trains to run over them, taking into account what rail is today.

 

[zephyr17]

As far as Amtrak's reasoning for not resuming the Sunset east of NOL, your analysis may well be largely true, GML.

However, assuming it is true, then Amtrak should stop the charade and file 180 discontinuation notices on the Sunset east of NOL. And take whatever heat is associated with that. They should either run the train, or formally discontinue it and go through the correct process, channels, notifications, and public comment.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

As far as Amtrak's reasoning for not resuming the Sunset east of NOL, your analysis may well be largely true, GML.
However, assuming it is true, then Amtrak should stop the charade and file 180 discontinuation notices on the Sunset east of NOL. And take whatever heat is associated with that. They should either run the train, or formally discontinue it and go through the correct process, channels, notifications, and public comment.

There are about 200 reasons why that makes less sense than what they are doing now. And most of them, quite honestly, will probably end up in the rail travelers favor.

 

[jis]

As far as Amtrak's reasoning for not resuming the Sunset east of NOL, your analysis may well be largely true, GML.
However, assuming it is true, then Amtrak should stop the charade and file 180 discontinuation notices on the Sunset east of NOL. And take whatever heat is associated with that. They should either run the train, or formally discontinue it and go through the correct process, channels, notifications, and public comment.

There are about 200 reasons why that makes less sense than what they are doing now. And most of them, quite honestly, will probably end up in the rail travelers favor.

I agree. After you have done a full shutdown with 180 day notice it will take zillions more to start up again, that is zillions more than if you had not done a full official shutdown using 180 day notice. For one thing the right to run a train on that route is retained until you have done a full shutdown. After that it is back to square one.

 

[printman2000]

I agree. After you have done a full shutdown with 180 day notice it will take zillions more to start up again, that is zillions more than if you had not done a full official shutdown using 180 day notice. For one thing the right to run a train on that route is retained until you have done a full shutdown. After that it is back to square one.

That makes me wonder...

Has Amtrak not done 180 notices because they did not want to deal with all the political stuff that would come from that OR with the mindset of keeping the route available for service?

I guess you could say both, but I assumed it was more because of the first choice.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I agree. After you have done a full shutdown with 180 day notice it will take zillions more to start up again, that is zillions more than if you had not done a full official shutdown using 180 day notice. For one thing the right to run a train on that route is retained until you have done a full shutdown. After that it is back to square one.

That makes me wonder...

Has Amtrak not done 180 notices because they did not want to deal with all the political stuff that would come from that OR with the mindset of keeping the route available for service?

I guess you could say both, but I assumed it was more because of the first choice.

I would say it is sum of many things, although I think the political fallout is strong... but not as strong as most think.

 

[mfastx]

Personally, I don't really have a problem with Amtrak discontinuing the Sunset to Florida, I just wish they would remove that section from their route map, or stop saying it's "suspended indefinately." That just annoys the crap out of me, I mean we all know it's not going to come back all of the sudden, just remove it from the website!

LOL I get mad over the dumbest things.

 

[Guest]

Amtrak has plans for several new trains but not enough coaches to run the Sunset daily.

 

[BlakeTyner]

Personally, I don't really have a problem with Amtrak discontinuing the Sunset to Florida, I just wish they would remove that section from their route map, or stop saying it's "suspended indefinately." That just annoys the crap out of me, I mean we all know it's not going to come back all of the sudden, just remove it from the website!
LOL I get mad over the dumbest things.

That's kind of the point here, though. If they do that--if they officially post the 180 day notice and discontinue the service officially, then they lose the right to run any passenger train whatsoever on that route. They would have to negotiate for it--the federal law says the freight companies must allow Amtrak to run passenger trains at the present level of service. That means that, if there is no service on a route, the freight company can say "no" to Amtrak; the law would not make them take a train.

Reading between the lines, it looks like Amtrak wants a train down there--just not a transcontinental Sunset Limited.

My personal feeling is that eventually Amtrak will extend the City of New Orleans from New Orleans to Florida some day. Or, if the states pony up the funds, they'll run whatever the states want run.

 

[Guest]

Amtrak believes if they kill the Sunset, all criticism will go away. Warped logic.

Amtrak must fix the Sunset as best defense to criticism.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak believes if they kill the Sunset, all criticism will go away. Warped logic.Amtrak must fix the Sunset as best defense to criticism.

You got it wrong. They are attempting to fix the service. To best utilize the areas served, though, they believe they need to change the situation, and a transcontinental single train called the Sunset Limited is not the best use of their resources to serve that area. I personally agree.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak believes if they kill the Sunset, all criticism will go away. Warped logic.Amtrak must fix the Sunset as best defense to criticism.

You got it wrong. They are attempting to fix the service. To best utilize the areas served, though, they believe they need to change the situation, and a transcontinental single train called the Sunset Limited is not the best use of their resources to serve that area. I personally agree.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that the Sunset Limited isn't the best use of resources to serve that area, however no service is certainly not the best way to fix the service. One should continue to run what one has until such time as things can indeed be made better.

After all, we're not talking about discontinuing what's left of the Sunset as well as the Eagle while we get ready to revise that service.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Amtrak believes if they kill the Sunset, all criticism will go away. Warped logic.Amtrak must fix the Sunset as best defense to criticism.

You got it wrong. They are attempting to fix the service. To best utilize the areas served, though, they believe they need to change the situation, and a transcontinental single train called the Sunset Limited is not the best use of their resources to serve that area. I personally agree.

Once again I find myself in agreement with GML! I love the Sunset Ltd., it was my first LD train,first time in a diner etc. (SP, pre-Amtrak) but for economic and time keeping reasons re-starting LAX-FLA same train service is not feasible! Once the daily CHI-LAX and SAS-NOL stub trains are in place I look for Amtrak to run the CONO through to Florida, Jacksonville is as far as it needs to go, the Silver Trains or even another Florida train if such ever happens, can serve the Southern Florida market! To me this makes the most sense, and as to Alans concerns about the stub train, Alan is right 99.99% of the time but as the old saying goes," we'll see?" :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

 

[AlanB]

Once the daily CHI-LAX and SAS-NOL stub trains are in place I look for Amtrak to run the CONO through to Florida, Jacksonville is as far as it needs to go, the Silver Trains or even another Florida train if such ever happens, can serve the Southern Florida market! To me this makes the most sense, and as to Alans concerns about the stub train, Alan is right 99.99% of the time but as the old saying goes," we'll see?" :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

JAX is not the place to terminate a train, as Amtrak does not want to setup shops there to maintain the trains. And I'm not even sure if there is space to put in a shop. Any train need to either terminate at Orlando for a dead head move to Sanford, or in Miami, both of which have shops and comissaries to restock the trains.

 

[Guest]

Amtrak believes if they kill the Sunset, all criticism will go away. Warped logic.Amtrak must fix the Sunset as best defense to criticism.

You got it wrong. They are attempting to fix the service. To best utilize the areas served, though, they believe they need to change the situation, and a transcontinental single train called the Sunset Limited is not the best use of their resources to serve that area. I personally agree.

The Sunset ran in 3 of the 4 largest states. Amtrak ran the train tri-weekly, very dumb. So the solution is to kill the train

in the 4th largest state, kill a LD train in the second largest state replaced with a stub train to compete with I-10 and Southwest

airline. I sure it makes sense on planet kookoo.

 

[Guest]

Amtrak believes if they kill the Sunset, all criticism will go away. Warped logic.Amtrak must fix the Sunset as best defense to criticism.

You got it wrong. They are attempting to fix the service. To best utilize the areas served, though, they believe they need to change the situation, and a transcontinental single train called the Sunset Limited is not the best use of their resources to serve that area. I personally agree.

Once again I find myself in agreement with GML! I love the Sunset Ltd., it was my first LD train,first time in a diner etc. (SP, pre-Amtrak) but for economic and time keeping reasons re-starting LAX-FLA same train service is not feasible! Once the daily CHI-LAX and SAS-NOL stub trains are in place I look for Amtrak to run the CONO through to Florida, Jacksonville is as far as it needs to go, the Silver Trains or even another Florida train if such ever happens, can serve the Southern Florida market! To me this makes the most sense, and as to Alans concerns about the stub train, Alan is right 99.99% of the time but as the old saying goes," we'll see?" :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

You by chance wouldn't happen to agree with killing the Sunset because it benefits your area?

 

[Trogdor]

The Sunset ran in 3 of the 4 largest states. Amtrak ran the train tri-weekly, very dumb. So the solution is to kill the trainin the 4th largest state, kill a LD train in the second largest state replaced with a stub train to compete with I-10 and Southwest

airline. I sure it makes sense on planet kookoo.

The route has been 3x weekly since prior to Amtrak's existence. Not saying that justifies Amtrak's continued operation of the train with the same frequency, just pointing out that it wasn't Amtrak that downgraded the frequency.

One could also point out that, despite it running in three of the four largest states, the ridership was still quite weak. Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to run the whole route daily at this time (which would be the preferred option).

Therefore, Amtrak faces the decision of serving the entire route with crappy service, or serving a portion of the route with reasonably good service, and restoring service to the rest of the route when the equipment availability will permit (remember, Amtrak has a fleet plan available for review, all it needs is money, so call your congresspersons).

As for your comment about "[competing] with I-10 and Southwest airline (sic)," the NOL-SAS stub train will follow the same routing as the current Sunset Limited between those two cities. If running seven days a week isn't competitive, then how would running three days per week be?

Maybe on this "planet kookoo" of which you speak, a week only has three days?

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

What I have never understood about 3 time a week Scheduling is how does this type of schedule serve customers? What does make sense to me is Mon-Fri and/or Sat-Sun(Holiday) scheduling. I do realize that in LD Service there may be some reason to consider the end points.