The TSA Vs. The Fourth Amendment

[Bob Dylan]

As usual Ryan and jis have posted realistic explanations of why the TSA, aka The Keystone Cops, are a total waste of money with their Security Theater @ our airports and increasingly @ Amtrak Stations!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Thank you for offering your usual attempts at humor instead of addressing the issue. I am always open to hearing evidence for an argument but personal attacks are much easier. Since I do not wish to continue down the road to an argument I will move on to a more enlightened conversation with those who have something more concrete to offer on the subject of personal rights vs. security.

If you're open to accepting new information and reevaluating prior assumptions then how on earth did you ever come to the erroneous conclusion that correlation implies causation? We're talking about fundamental logical fallacies here, not fluid dynamics or quantum mechanics.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Since I have apparently ruffled Ryan's, DA's and Jim's feathers over this issue let me try to state my thoughts on the subject of airport security.

1) after reading Jis' links and those of others who have contributed articles to the TSA problem, I therefore must conclude that my assumptions about the effectiveness of the TSA must be totally wrong..

2) Since we have not had a known terrorist event on our planes since 911, I must therefore conclude that there is some other extraneous reason that terrorists have not decided to attack our planes, airports during the last 15 years. I am open to those who wish to reflect on what those reasons might be.

3) We need to replace the TSA system currently used with a psychological profiling system used by the Israeli government to check the body actions of potential terrorists at airports and not pull little old ladies out of line for full body scans. or old people like me who look like a midwestern hillbilly

4) I personally do not care if someone scans my body, my personal belongings, before I get on an airplane. That is my constitutional right to chose how I live my life. If others disagree, then they too have a right to either work to change the law, or not fly..

5) I still prefer to take a train..

Have a nice day gentlemen.. :hi:

 

[Ryan]

Please don't confuse pointing out the factual errors in your arguments with any ruffled feathers. Feelings don't really have anything to do with it.

If you're going to hold a position about the effectiveness and Constitutionality of the TSA, that position should be based on facts, not faulty assumptions.

1) Excellent that you've come around to reality on the matter.

2) I've already speculated on that. The window for using airplanes as guided missiles against land targets has closed. As far as attacks on our planes, you may want to look into who Richard Reid and Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab are.

3) There is no reason that little old ladies or people "who look like a midwestern hillbilly" should get a pass on security. There are plenty of people "who look like a midwestern hillbilly" who have perpetuated terrorist attacks.

4) The fact that you're willing to toss away your Constitutional rights doesn't really have any bearing on the matter. For some of us flying isn't an option. I do appreciate your permission to try and work towards changing the laws to be more aligned with our Constitution.

5) That makes it mighty easy to say that you're willing to have your privacy violated, since you don't actually have any skin in the game.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Please don't confuse pointing out the factual errors in your arguments with any ruffled feathers. Feelings don't really have anything to do with it.

If you're going to hold a position about the effectiveness and Constitutionality of the TSA, that position should be based on facts, not faulty assumptions.

1) Excellent that you've come around to reality on the matter.

2) I've already speculated on that. The window for using airplanes as guided missiles against land targets has closed. As far as attacks on our planes, you may want to look into who Richard Reid and Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab are.

3) There is no reason that little old ladies or people "who look like a midwestern hillbilly" should get a pass on security. There are plenty of people "who look like a midwestern hillbilly" who have perpetuated terrorist attacks.

4) The fact that you're willing to toss away your Constitutional rights doesn't really have any bearing on the matter. For some of us flying isn't an option. I do appreciate your permission to try and work towards changing the laws to be more aligned with our Constitution.

5) That makes it mighty easy to say that you're willing to have your privacy violated, since you don't actually have any skin in the game.

Since I have had a good time playing this game with you all, I will move on to discussing trains. But you all really need to mellow out some. It is really better for your blood pressure. As I said, please have a really nice evening..

 

[Ryan]

It's pretty distressing to hear you consider upholding our Constitution to be a game. Having sworn an oath to uphold and defend it on multiple occasions, it's somewhat more serious than that.

Let's take away some rights that you care about and tell you to just mellow out some.

No issues with my blood pressure here, though, thanks for the kind thoughts.

 

[Ryan]

On a more substantive note, what does the collective think about this one:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/12/tsa-may-soon-stop-accepting-drivers-licenses-from-nine-states/

The citizens of several US states may soon find that they can't use their drivers' licenses to get into federal facilities or even board planes.

Enforcement of a 2005 federal law that sets identification standards, known as "Real ID," has been long-delayed. But now Department of Homeland Security officials say enforcement is imminent. The "Real ID" law requires states to implement certain security features before they issue IDs and verify the legal residency of anyone to whom they issue an ID card. The statute is in part a response to the suggestion of the 9/11 Commission, which noted that four of the 19 hijackers used state-issued ID cards to board planes.

Real ID also requires states to share their databases of driver information with other states. The information-sharing provisions are a big reason why some privacy groups opposed the law, saying it would effectively be the equivalent of a national identification card.

The federal government can't force state licensing agencies to change their practices to conform to Real ID standards. But it can stop those with state-issued IDs from using them to enter federal facilities, such as military bases, or to board commercial planes. The renewed push for compliance comes at a time when concerns about terrorism are again high due to recent bloody attacks in Paris and California.

Hopefully y'all from those states have passports or something else that can be used for travel. The whole RealID things seems to be a solution in search of a problem to me, but that can be said about most of our security efforts.

 

[jebr]

Re: RealID:

I agree that it's a solution in search of a problem. Honestly, I wish that our state (MN) would hold our ground with the regular IDs. If someone needs an ID for air travel, an enhanced driver's license is available for an additional $15 which includes the chip to do ground travel to/from Canada and Mexico. I have one now, though I'll probably switch back once it expires (I have a NEXUS card that does the same thing and more.)

 

[Bob Dylan]

Perfect example of the giving the government an inch and they want to go a mile!

If anyone can provide evidence that an ID ( a piece of paper and/or plastic) can prevent an act of terrorism, or ID a terrorist, I'm willing to be convinced that overeach like this might prove effective!

But I wouldn't bet my house on it! YMMV

 

[Bob Dylan]

Bill: as an old Southwestern Hillbilly, I assure you that you didn't ruffle my feathers with your post!

I just disagree with you since REAL Security is not the Theatrical Show that the TSA puts on!

I also would hope that you agree that they are NOT needed @ Amtrak Stations, (but are starting to show up more and more @ Rail Stations), and also agree that their Management's attempts to expand their jurisdiction so as to hire more agents with the accompaning increase in the budget should be a non-starter for this Smoke and Mirrors outfit!

Real Security! Were all for it! Dog and Pony Shows? Save them for Congress!!

 

[JayPea]

Washington is one of those non-compliant states. I fortunately have an enhanced drivers license which will work just fine.

 

[jis]

These days I just use my Global Entry Card with TSA anyway. So I don't worry too much about Drivers Licenses.

 

[Anderson]

I'd love to weigh in on this...but I generally find that if I get started on this topic the post sprawls to several pages, loses focus, and has a propensity to get sufficiently bitter and angry that I tend to self-censor as a result.

 

[MARC Rider]

Not TSA, but just to show you the effectiveness of some of the security theater:

I was up in NYC last Saturday and decided to drop into the main branch of the New York Public Library, mostly to gawk at the architecture and take a look at the Gutenberg Bible. So they have a security system whereby you have to let them inspect your bag before you enter (presumably to make sure you don't have any bombs or whatnot) and when you leave (presumably to make sure you aren't going home with any unauthorized library materials, such as Gutenberg Bibles). So I present my backpack to the guard, he zips open the compartment, shines his flashlight, and I'm good to go. The only problem? My backpack has THREE zippered compartments. Leaving, it was even worse, as the exit guard unzipped only the smallest compartment (the one designed for my tablet). I was thinking of maybe suggesting to him that he check the other compartments, but I didn't want to embarrass him.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Maybe he can't count that high?

Just kidding( sort of/ Wanna be Cops generally aren't Rhodes Scholars!)

 

[MARC Rider]

That's not exactly what you said originally.

... On the contrary, there is an ample body of evidence that they're almost completely ineffective in preventing contraband from making it onto the airplanes that you don't fly in. ...

...Doing nothing (past what existed pre-9/11)....

Surely TSA has prevented SOME contraband from making it on the planes? I read that they have a warehouse in Harrisburg where you can go buy at deep discount knives, swords and other sharp objects that have been confiscated. You are correct, however, in pointing out that even the highly intrusive screening being done now cannot prevent all contraband from being carried aboard planes.

They didn't have "nothing" pre-9/11. They had contract screeners. I'm not sure how effective they were, but you did have to go through a metal detector. You didn't have to show any ID, however, and non-passengers could pass through security and meet their parties at the gate. They also let you keep your shoes on. My recollection is that security screening started in 1973, perhaps in response to D.B. Cooper, the hijacker who extorted money and then parachuted out of the plane in the dark.

Here's an NPR page from 2000, right before 9/11. The 4th Amendment issue was raised even before 9/11, and apparently the courts said the searches were OK if (1) they were universal, and (2) they search was limited to weapons and explosives.

http://savvytraveler.publicradio.org/show/features/2000/20000915/security.shtml

 

[jis]

Re: RealID:

I agree that it's a solution in search of a problem. Honestly, I wish that our state (MN) would hold our ground with the regular IDs. If someone needs an ID for air travel, an enhanced driver's license is available for an additional $15 which includes the chip to do ground travel to/from Canada and Mexico. I have one now, though I'll probably switch back once it expires (I have a NEXUS card that does the same thing and more.)

Yup, a NEXUS or a Global Entry card works just fine as an approved ID card for TSA.
Incidentally, if you are a registered Clear customer, at airports with Clear facility (e.g. Orlando) you don't even need an ID Card. Your biometric, typically finger print, is your ID. You bypass the ID checking line and go straight to the pre checkpoint after verifying your biometric to match with the name on the boarding card.