Viewliner Diner on the Road

[Green Maned Lion]

So, if anyone here wants to start the new Budd company (GML, I'm looking at you)....

Get me a line on financing and I'll hit the ground running.

I don't think Talgo will be building any Viewliners, because if you haven't noticed, the Talgos are also having troubles (they don't even have the Vancouver set up).
cpamtfan-Peter

The TALGOs are the best cars Amtrak has bought since the Superliner IIs. They have given few problems, TALGO has been cooperative, and I'd say (from my perspective) they are the best cars Amtrak has aside from the Amfleets. The Superliners are pretty good. Most of what Amtrak has bought in its life has been problematic junk- perhaps people remember the serious toothing problems Amtrak had with both the Superliner I and II cars?- the only notable exceptions are the Amfleets and the Talgos. The Viewliners are junk, the Horizons are junk, the RTG Turboliners are junk, the Rohr Turboliners are junk. The Acela turns being junk into a high art form.

I hope Talgo steps up to the plate for this one. I sincerely do.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

they wouldn't be junk if amtrak did the required maintenance on the cars instead of the if it ain't broke don't fix it attitude. via rail canada has cars as old as the heritage and they work fine.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That's because the VIA cars, like the Amfleets and every other car Budd built with the exception of the Seldom Propelled Vehicle (SPV2000), aren't junk. Amtrak's maintenance leaves much to be desired, but its not what I'm referring to. Metal fatigue and dying welds on a 10 year old trainset is not a maintenance problem, its indifferent/shoddy build quality.

 

[jis]

Due to the Acela experience, I'd say Bombardier is likely out of the running. I'd say Alstom will get the contract for the bi-level cars for Chicago corridors, and TALGO will build the Viewliners. But Bombardier is a possibility for the latter. If more Superliners or Amfleets are built, Bombardier will build them, since they own the patents.

Why should patent ownership matter? They have all expired a long time back. Afterall they just last for 17 or 20 years depending on when they were granted. Now if you say that they have the design and drawings and all that would indeed be a factor.

I actually have difficulty believing that TALGO will build anything but TALGO sets. I also do not believe that is this sort of business the minor flap that occurred between Bombardier and Amtrak really amounts to much. But I suppose we can just wait and see who actually gets the order. I agree that Alstomis the front runner for the corridor bi-levels. I would not be surprised at all if Alstom gets the Superliner III order based on the Surfliner shell.

 

[had8ley]

Due to the Acela experience, I'd say Bombardier is likely out of the running. I'd say Alstom will get the contract for the bi-level cars for Chicago corridors, and TALGO will build the Viewliners. But Bombardier is a possibility for the latter. If more Superliners or Amfleets are built, Bombardier will build them, since they own the patents.

Why should patent ownership matter? They have all expired a long time back. Afterall they just last for 17 or 20 years depending on when they were granted. Now if you say that they have the design and drawings and all that would indeed be a factor.

I actually have difficulty believing that TALGO will build anything but TALGO sets. I also do not believe that is this sort of business the minor flap that occurred between Bombardier and Amtrak really amounts to much. But I suppose we can just wait and see who actually gets the order. I agree that Alstomis the front runner for the corridor bi-levels. I would not be surprised at all if Alstom gets the Superliner III order based on the Surfliner shell.

I don't think I'd call mega-millions a "minor" flap.

 

[rolfecms]

The TALGOs are the best cars Amtrak has bought since the Superliner IIs. They have given few problems, TALGO has been cooperative, and I'd say (from my perspective) they are the best cars Amtrak has aside from the Amfleets. The Superliners are pretty good. Most of what Amtrak has bought in its life has been problematic junk- perhaps people remember the serious toothing problems Amtrak had with both the Superliner I and II cars?- the only notable exceptions are the Amfleets and the Talgos. The Viewliners are junk, the Horizons are junk, the RTG Turboliners are junk, the Rohr Turboliners are junk. The Acela turns being junk into a high art form.
I hope Talgo steps up to the plate for this one. I sincerely do.

I recall when Superliner I was built after which Pullman Standard exited passenger car manufacturing. One of the reasons P-S gave then was the unrelenting changes that Amtrak kept imposing during the actual manufacturing process. Those revisions supposedly wiped out P-S's profit margin on the Superliner order. Not sure to what extent this was the case (can anyone comment?) or if this has happened on other subsequent car orders, but intrusion like this cannot contribute positively to either the quality or to the car manufacturer's bottom line. Let's hope this time is different. Amtrak needs to get their requirements correct from the start, and then get out of the way while they are built to specifcation.

 

[jis]

I don't think I'd call mega-millions a "minor" flap.

Depends entirely on ones perspective. If one normally deals in thousands and 10s of thousands, then mega-million is big. But if one deals regularly in 10s of millions then a mega million is par for the course. These deals are in that ball-park so it is not out of the ordinary. Now when someone gets fined over a billion, that is big!

 

[jis]

I recall when Superliner I was built after which Pullman Standard exited passenger car manufacturing. One of the reasons P-S gave then was the unrelenting changes that Amtrak kept imposing during the actual manufacturing process. Those revisions supposedly wiped out P-S's profit margin on the Superliner order. Not sure to what extent this was the case (can anyone comment?) or if this has happened on other subsequent car orders, but intrusion like this cannot contribute positively to either the quality or to the car manufacturer's bottom line. Let's hope this time is different. Amtrak needs to get their requirements correct from the start, and then get out of the way while they are built to specifcation.

Amtrak has a penchant for such. Part of the problem with Acelas also had to do with endless series of change orders from Amtrak, which of course then they turn around and try to blame entirely on everything other than themselves.

 

[printman2000]

I recall when Superliner I was built after which Pullman Standard exited passenger car manufacturing. One of the reasons P-S gave then was the unrelenting changes that Amtrak kept imposing during the actual manufacturing process. Those revisions supposedly wiped out P-S's profit margin on the Superliner order. Not sure to what extent this was the case (can anyone comment?) or if this has happened on other subsequent car orders, but intrusion like this cannot contribute positively to either the quality or to the car manufacturer's bottom line. Let's hope this time is different. Amtrak needs to get their requirements correct from the start, and then get out of the way while they are built to specifcation.

Typically, when you do change orders, you are charged pretty heftily for it. I would think that would have been the case here, unless the contract was poorly written for Pullman.

 

[rolfecms]

I recall when Superliner I was built after which Pullman Standard exited passenger car manufacturing. One of the reasons P-S gave then was the unrelenting changes that Amtrak kept imposing during the actual manufacturing process. Those revisions supposedly wiped out P-S's profit margin on the Superliner order. Not sure to what extent this was the case (can anyone comment?) or if this has happened on other subsequent car orders, but intrusion like this cannot contribute positively to either the quality or to the car manufacturer's bottom line. Let's hope this time is different. Amtrak needs to get their requirements correct from the start, and then get out of the way while they are built to specifcation.

Typically, when you do change orders, you are charged pretty heftily for it. I would think that would have been the case here, unless the contract was poorly written for Pullman.

IMHO that's all the more reason for Amtrak to step back after the requirements have been agreed upon. In my lifetime there's never been an opened-ended spigot of cash available for passenger rail equipment purchases so it would be a real shame if these funds were again wasted on after-the-fact changes to the specifications.

 

[printman2000]

I recall when Superliner I was built after which Pullman Standard exited passenger car manufacturing. One of the reasons P-S gave then was the unrelenting changes that Amtrak kept imposing during the actual manufacturing process. Those revisions supposedly wiped out P-S's profit margin on the Superliner order. Not sure to what extent this was the case (can anyone comment?) or if this has happened on other subsequent car orders, but intrusion like this cannot contribute positively to either the quality or to the car manufacturer's bottom line. Let's hope this time is different. Amtrak needs to get their requirements correct from the start, and then get out of the way while they are built to specifcation.

Typically, when you do change orders, you are charged pretty heftily for it. I would think that would have been the case here, unless the contract was poorly written for Pullman.

IMHO that's all the more reason for Amtrak to step back after the requirements have been agreed upon. In my lifetime there's never been an opened-ended spigot of cash available for passenger rail equipment purchases so it would be a real shame if these funds were again wasted on after-the-fact changes to the specifications.

My point was that I do not see how making changes would but Pullman out-of-business.

 

[rolfecms]

I recall when Superliner I was built after which Pullman Standard exited passenger car manufacturing. One of the reasons P-S gave then was the unrelenting changes that Amtrak kept imposing during the actual manufacturing process. Those revisions supposedly wiped out P-S's profit margin on the Superliner order. Not sure to what extent this was the case (can anyone comment?) or if this has happened on other subsequent car orders, but intrusion like this cannot contribute positively to either the quality or to the car manufacturer's bottom line. Let's hope this time is different. Amtrak needs to get their requirements correct from the start, and then get out of the way while they are built to specifcation.

Typically, when you do change orders, you are charged pretty heftily for it. I would think that would have been the case here, unless the contract was poorly written for Pullman.

IMHO that's all the more reason for Amtrak to step back after the requirements have been agreed upon. In my lifetime there's never been an opened-ended spigot of cash available for passenger rail equipment purchases so it would be a real shame if these funds were again wasted on after-the-fact changes to the specifications.

My point was that I do not see how making changes would but Pullman out-of-business.

You're right - assuming P-S exercised the right to charge for those post-facto changes. Makes you wonder how anyone could lose money on a government contract! :lol:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

P-S had to go outta business. Think about it: what other orders were there for cars they could build at the time?

 

[wayman]

P-S had to go outta business. Think about it: what other orders were there for cars they could build at the time?

SEPTA could order some diners...

 

[AlanB]

P-S had to go outta business. Think about it: what other orders were there for cars they could build at the time?

SEPTA could order some diners...

First they need to order coaches with bathrooms!

 

[wayman]

P-S had to go outta business. Think about it: what other orders were there for cars they could build at the time?

SEPTA could order some diners...

First they need to order coaches with bathrooms!

Several Sundays ago, I rode out to Doylestown and back (an hour north of the city on the Reading) ... from Ardmore (west of the city on the PRR Main Line) ... and returned on the very last train of the evening--which makes all local stops. A one-seat ride through Center City, 102 minutes! After several beers at a pub in Doylestown, I sure could've used a Silverliner-with-bathroom!

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The Budd manufacturing complex is still standing in north Philadelphia, several city blocks of factory buildings and rails, just waiting for someone to do something with it. At one point several years ago a developer bought it with the intent to ... do some sort of mixed-use something-or-another, but it never happened and the plans died. I asked a city council staffer a few months ago if there was anything preventing someone from buying the facilities and building passenger cars there, and she thought that was entirely possible, at least insofar as nobody was presently planning anything and the current owners were just squatting, waiting for the economy to turn around, basically.
So, if anyone here wants to start the new Budd company (GML, I'm looking at you)....

Aren't there several foreign railcar manufacturers that might need to build factories in the US to meet ``made in the USA'' requirements? Rotem (who will be making the next batch of MBTA Commuter Rail coaches) certainly comes to mind, but I suspect they've choosen some other factory location by now.

Are there any labor reasons why building a factory from scratch somewhere that isn't Philadephia is cheaper than taking over Budd's complex?

 

[battalion51]

I'll run with Michael Moore's suggestion. We've got all these car factories laying around that have been shut down. Seems like we should be able to convert some of those puppies pretty easily...

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I'll run with Michael Moore's suggestion. We've got all these car factories laying around that have been shut down. Seems like we should be able to convert some of those puppies pretty easily...

The MBTA's experience with Boeing Vertol makes me think we should be careful with that. I suspect the key is making sure management understands rail.

 

[sechs]

Are there any labor reasons why building a factory from scratch somewhere that isn't Philadephia is cheaper than taking over Budd's complex?

First, the Budd site likely to be an environmental mess. No one wants to own whatever they dumped there for all of those years.

Second, it's often cheaper to build what you want from the ground up rather than retrofitting a space.

There's also the possibility of issues with accessibility, environmental factors, and the desire to do something different with the land.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Are there any labor reasons why building a factory from scratch somewhere that isn't Philadephia is cheaper than taking over Budd's complex?

First, the Budd site likely to be an environmental mess. No one wants to own whatever they dumped there for all of those years.

Second, it's often cheaper to build what you want from the ground up rather than retrofitting a space.

There's also the possibility of issues with accessibility, environmental factors, and the desire to do something different with the land.

I'd want to start producing railcars based on basic streamliner designs out of shotwelded stainless steel. I'm sure Budd's factory is capable of accommodating this.

 

[sechs]

I'd want to start producing railcars based on basic streamliner designs out of shotwelded stainless steel. I'm sure Budd's factory is capable of accommodating this.

Surely, any big box factory could. It's not a question of capability.