Viewliner Set-out (3 river replacement)

[ExtonFlyer]

Been spending some time pouring over timetables and just came across an idea that I wanted to throw out to the board. I know that there has been quite a bit of talk about the three rivers (nyp-phl-chi) coming back in 5 years or so (once the new viewliners come in) - but was wondering about this as a potential stop gap.

What about putting a viewliner (I know they are in short supply - but play ball with me here) on the rear end of the Pennsylvanian from NYP-PGH and then "set it out" for the northbound Capital Limited to pick it up for the trip northbound to Chicago? Unless I am reading timetables wrong, this could be repeated for the southbound CapLim and eastbound Pennsy.

Any thoughts on this? Would potential sleeper revenue on this already highly patronized route make a biz case for redistrubuting a couple of sleepers?

I am 30 yrs old - and the concept of a set out sleeper is something I have only read about in books. I think it is such a fascinating concept. Would have loved to have experienced it back in the day. So, curious to hear your thoughts on my idea and whether it carries any weight or not. Thanks or any and all input!!

 

[cpamtfan]

Been spending some time pouring over timetables and just came across an idea that I wanted to throw out to the board. I know that there has been quite a bit of talk about the three rivers (nyp-phl-chi) coming back in 5 years or so (once the new viewliners come in) - but was wondering about this as a potential stop gap.
What about putting a viewliner (I know they are in short supply - but play ball with me here) on the rear end of the Pennsylvanian from NYP-PGH and then "set it out" for the northbound Capital Limited to pick it up for the trip northbound to Chicago? Unless I am reading timetables wrong, this could be repeated for the southbound CapLim and eastbound Pennsy.

Any thoughts on this? Would potential sleeper revenue on this already highly patronized route make a biz case for redistrubuting a couple of sleepers?

I am 30 yrs old - and the concept of a set out sleeper is something I have only read about in books. I think it is such a fascinating concept. Would have loved to have experienced it back in the day. So, curious to hear your thoughts on my idea and whether it carries any weight or not. Thanks or any and all input!!

It is a very interesting idea, its just a matter of equipment (which Amtrak currently doesn't have). It was actually done in the mid-1990s, right after the Broadway was discontinued, except that was coaches. It might work if Amtrak had enough Viewliners, and would probably make some good money, but just not quite logical now.

 

[the_traveler]

Another "problem" is that the CL uses Superliner equipment, and the Pennsy must use single level cars. From PGH to CHI, unless they had a Trans Dorm next to the Viewliner, there is no way those passengers could get to the rest of the train!

 

[AlanB]

Another "problem" is that the CL uses Superliner equipment, and the Pennsy must use single level cars. From PGH to CHI, unless they had a Trans Dorm next to the Viewliner, there is no way those passengers could get to the rest of the train!

You are correct, but it wouldn't be all that hard to set the Capital up so that the consist is flipped so that you cut off the bag and then attach the Viewliner, followed by the bag. Or just leave things are they are, cut off the two engines and the bag, then shove the Viewliner into place and back the engines and bag back onto the head end.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Another "problem" is that the CL uses Superliner equipment, and the Pennsy must use single level cars. From PGH to CHI, unless they had a Trans Dorm next to the Viewliner, there is no way those passengers could get to the rest of the train!

You are correct, but it wouldn't be all that hard to set the Capital up so that the consist is flipped so that you cut off the bag and then attach the Viewliner, followed by the bag. Or just leave things are they are, cut off the two engines and the bag, then shove the Viewliner into place and back the engines and bag back onto the head end.

The second idea is nuts.

 

[nferr]

Of course the best thing would be a return of the Broadway Limited. I have a feeling though that Amtrak thinks they have things covered enough with the Capital Limited and the Lake Shore, along with the Pennsylvanian connection.

Funny I was having dinner on the eastbound Capital last week with a few passengers. I think everyone at the table was connecting at Wahington to a regional for NY. Except for one guy - he was also going to NY, but was going to get off at Pittsburgh at 5:30 AM to connect to the Pennsylvanian at 7:20 AM. Said he'd much rather wait at the station then be on the train. We all just kind of looked at him like he was nuts.

 

[rolfecms]

Of course the best thing would be a return of the Broadway Limited. I have a feeling though that Amtrak thinks they have things covered enough with the Capital Limited and the Lake Shore, along with the Pennsylvanian connection.

Does anyone remember what Amtrak's justification was for ending the Broadway Limited?

 

[nferr]

Of course the best thing would be a return of the Broadway Limited. I have a feeling though that Amtrak thinks they have things covered enough with the Capital Limited and the Lake Shore, along with the Pennsylvanian connection.

Does anyone remember what Amtrak's justification was for ending the Broadway Limited?

The usual - cash and not enough cars.

 

[rolfecms]

Of course the best thing would be a return of the Broadway Limited. I have a feeling though that Amtrak thinks they have things covered enough with the Capital Limited and the Lake Shore, along with the Pennsylvanian connection.

Does anyone remember what Amtrak's justification was for ending the Broadway Limited?

The usual - cash and not enough cars.

As I remember it the Broadway Ltd split into two sections, with one going to DC and the other to NYC. And the Capitol Ltd did not exist then. So not sure how money or equipment could come into play if the Broadway was replaced by the Capitol. I seem to recall track problems had been an issue but don't know if that contributed to its demise.

 

[Tony]

What about putting a viewliner (I know they are in short supply - but play ball with me here) on the rear end of the Pennsylvanian from NYP-PGH and then "set it out" for the northbound Capital Limited to pick it up for the trip northbound to Chicago? Unless I am reading timetables wrong, this could be repeated for the southbound CapLim and eastbound Pennsy.

I think one issue, would be to answer why put sleepers onto a train, the Pennsylvanian, that is not an over night train?

 

[ExtonFlyer]

Of course the best thing would be a return of the Broadway Limited. I have a feeling though that Amtrak thinks they have things covered enough with the Capital Limited and the Lake Shore, along with the Pennsylvanian connection.

True - you are probably right. I guess I was just daydreaming about the possibility of a "set out" sleeper working somewhere on a major Amtrak route. I am fascinated by the whole idea of going to sleep on one train and waking up on an entirely new one!! So neat - but I guess I have to come to terms with the fact that I'll probably only get to read about them in the history books

 

[MattW]

Well there's the current Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited sleeper swap at San Antonio on days the SL runs.

 

[Ispolkom]

I think one issue, would be to answer why put sleepers onto a train, the Pennsylvanian, that is not an over night train?

To give through-car sleeper service to stations that otherwise don't have it, especially Philadelphia.

But this isn't really a set-out sleeper is it? To be sure, it's a sleeper that's switched between trains, but a set-out sleeper is one that is boarded early at a station and picked up by a night train (my favorite being the Scranton-Hoboken set-out sleeper. Imagine taking a sleeper for a 120 mile trip!), or dropped off at a station at some ungodly hour, and then occupied until morning.

I wonder if Pittsburgh or Cleveland set-out sleepers to Chicago would make any sense. Probably not, since if there are only 2-3 sleepers for the whole Lake Shore Limited or Capitol Limited, there wouldn't be the demand. Was the New York set-out sleeper on the old Night Owl popular in the 90s? I always meant to take it...

 

[Tony]

To give through-car sleeper service to stations that otherwise don't have it, especially Philadelphia.

Though, any sleeper cars would have no purpose on the 9 hour Pennsylvanian itself.

I guess there are many examples of Amtrak trains which make connections with other Amtrak trains. Are we really talking about here, starting a new service where passengers would never have to exit one train, walk, and enter another train, but instead cars will be moved/swapped between the trains with passengers comfortably seated inside?

I mean, how about moving Viewliners between the Silvers and the Capital Limited too?

 

[ExtonFlyer]

I think one issue, would be to answer why put sleepers onto a train, the Pennsylvanian, that is not an over night train?

To give through-car sleeper service to stations that otherwise don't have it, especially Philadelphia.

But this isn't really a set-out sleeper is it? To be sure, it's a sleeper that's switched between trains, but a set-out sleeper is one that is boarded early at a station and picked up by a night train (my favorite being the Scranton-Hoboken set-out sleeper. Imagine taking a sleeper for a 120 mile trip!), or dropped off at a station at some ungodly hour, and then occupied until morning.

Great point - not a true set out now that I think about it. I guess sleeper swap (as MattW labeled it earlier) as a better descriptor for the idea I proposed.

 

[wayman]

To give through-car sleeper service to stations that otherwise don't have it, especially Philadelphia.
I wonder if Pittsburgh or Cleveland set-out sleepers to Chicago would make any sense. Probably not, since if there are only 2-3 sleepers for the whole Lake Shore Limited or Capitol Limited, there wouldn't be the demand. Was the New York set-out sleeper on the old Night Owl popular in the 90s? I always meant to take it...

The reason there are only 2-3 sleepers on the LSL and CL isn't lack of demand, it's lack of sleepers.

I think we're much more likely to see a restored Broadway Limited than set-out cars or joined trains (and I think it's reasonably likely this will happen about 5-6 years from now, when new single-level equipment arrives). I'll be on the inaugural sleeper from Philadelphia when they do!

 

[ExtonFlyer]

Was the New York set-out sleeper on the old Night Owl popular in the 90s? I always meant to take it...

Here is a NYTimes Article from 1984 that talks about the set-out sleeper on the Night Owl. I remember coming across this archived article a while ago - and it really sparked my interest in the whole concept of set-out's. A really fun read - thought you all might enjoy!

 

[TVRM610]

It seems strange that Amtrak used "equipment shortage" as a reason not to run an entire train. I know that Amtrak does not have a surplus of equipment and yes there are shortages but could the 3 rivers not be run coaches only? What about expanding the Pennsylvanian again with it's current consists?

 

[Donctor]

As I remember it the Broadway Ltd split into two sections, with one going to DC and the other to NYC. And the Capitol Ltd did not exist then. So not sure how money or equipment could come into play if the Broadway was replaced by the Capitol.

The DC section grew large enough to become its own train. Between the mid-80s and the mid-90s, there were two trains: the Broadway and the Cap. Today, at least with Amtrak's current equipment roster, such a combination of trains would be impossible.

 

[wayman]

It seems strange that Amtrak used "equipment shortage" as a reason not to run an entire train. I know that Amtrak does not have a surplus of equipment and yes there are shortages but could the 3 rivers not be run coaches only? What about expanding the Pennsylvanian again with it's current consists?

They don't want to run a long distance train with Amfleet Is and only a barebones cafe car, and that's all the Pennsylvanian runs with; they don't have Amfleet IIs to spare, nor diner lites, and certainly not diners (nor sleepers, of course). Oh, and they're short on baggage cars, so no checked baggage option.

The reason for canceling the trains via Pittsburgh to Chicago around 2004 or so was that they were mail trains (which also carried some passengers, oh, by the way), and when Amtrak got out of the mail/express business they cut the trains. They started a new train, the Pennsylvanian--which happens to have the same name as one of the previous trains which went to Chicago--which only ran to Pittsburgh, and when they did that whole mess of changes, the new Pennsylvanian's equipment became short-distance commuter equipment, totally inappropriate for a trip to Chicago.

 

[Donctor]

They don't want to run a long distance train with Amfleet Is and only a barebones cafe car, and that's all the Pennsylvanian runs with; they don't have Amfleet IIs to spare, nor diner lites, and certainly not diners (nor sleepers, of course). Oh, and they're short on baggage cars, so no checked baggage option.
The reason for canceling the trains via Pittsburgh to Chicago around 2004 or so was that they were mail trains (which also carried some passengers, oh, by the way), and when Amtrak got out of the mail/express business they cut the trains. They started a new train, the Pennsylvanian--which happens to have the same name as one of the previous trains which went to Chicago--which only ran to Pittsburgh, and when they did that whole mess of changes, the new Pennsylvanian's equipment became short-distance commuter equipment, totally inappropriate for a trip to Chicago.

I was unaware that the Pennsylvanian ran only with Amfleet Is. When I rode it (and took down its consist daily) this past summer, it was usually three Amfleet II coaches, one Amfleet I coach, and an Amfleet I café.

 

[cpamtfan]

The Pennsy runs with 3 Amf II and 1 Amf I coaches. Olus theirs the Amf I Club Dinette. There may be a few AmfII coaches avalible, but not many Amf II Diner Lites/Lounges whatever their used for on a train.

 

[wayman]

The Pennsy runs with 3 Amf II and 1 Amf I coaches. Olus theirs the Amf I Club Dinette. There may be a few AmfII coaches avalible, but not many Amf II Diner Lites/Lounges whatever their used for on a train.

I hadn't realized it had some Amf IIs in addition to the Amf Is. But if there aren't enough to make the whole trainsets for just going to Pittsburgh, there certainly aren't enough to make trainsets going to Chicago.

 

[TVRM610]

It seems strange that Amtrak used "equipment shortage" as a reason not to run an entire train. I know that Amtrak does not have a surplus of equipment and yes there are shortages but could the 3 rivers not be run coaches only? What about expanding the Pennsylvanian again with it's current consists?

They don't want to run a long distance train with Amfleet Is and only a barebones cafe car, and that's all the Pennsylvanian runs with; they don't have Amfleet IIs to spare, nor diner lites, and certainly not diners (nor sleepers, of course). Oh, and they're short on baggage cars, so no checked baggage option.

That is my point, why do they not want to run a LD train with Amfleets and a Cafe. What would be the harm in that. Every LD train does not need baggage, a diner, sleepers etc.

 

[nferr]

It seems strange that Amtrak used "equipment shortage" as a reason not to run an entire train. I know that Amtrak does not have a surplus of equipment and yes there are shortages but could the 3 rivers not be run coaches only? What about expanding the Pennsylvanian again with it's current consists?

They don't want to run a long distance train with Amfleet Is and only a barebones cafe car, and that's all the Pennsylvanian runs with; they don't have Amfleet IIs to spare, nor diner lites, and certainly not diners (nor sleepers, of course). Oh, and they're short on baggage cars, so no checked baggage option.

That is my point, why do they not want to run a LD train with Amfleets and a Cafe. What would be the harm in that. Every LD train does not need baggage, a diner, sleepers etc.

Overnight trains without sleepers, a diner, etc. are a disaster IMO. That's why the Three Rivers was nicknamed the Three Sewers. If they bring back an overnight train on this route they need to bring back the Broadway when the new equipment is available.