On my recent trip on the LSL, the power would go out as the train stopped, which was problematic because the lights would come on in the middle of the night when the power came back on. On the EB tonight the power went off at several stops. Unlike the LSL, the lights did not come on but each time my digital clock started flashing and reset at 12:00. What causes this to happen?
What causes power outages as trains stop?
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had8ley
Engineer
It could be a number of things but since you mentioned they went out at stops I'd venture to say that the mechanical forces were trying to fix an electrical problem; HEP (Head End Power) was shut down to do some switching or the unit supplying HEP was acting up when stopped. Although freakish I have had this happen on Genesis power.
caravanman
Engineer
Broadly speaking, the electric power for lights, sockets, etc comes from a generator on the engine. If the engine itself shuts down, then power will be lost for the lights, etc. On systems with overhead power lines, the lighting and pulling power comes via the overhead line. If the electric goes off, it is an unintended event, not meant to happen!
Ed
Ed
You are saying that they do not routinely shut down the engine at stops???Broadly speaking, the electric power for lights, sockets, etc comes from a generator on the engine. If the engine itself shuts down, then power will be lost for the lights, etc. On systems with overhead power lines, the lighting and pulling power comes via the overhead line. If the electric goes off, it is an unintended event, not meant to happen!
Ed
NO - they don't.You are saying that they do not routinely shut down the engine at stops???Broadly speaking, the electric power for lights, sockets, etc comes from a generator on the engine. If the engine itself shuts down, then power will be lost for the lights, etc. On systems with overhead power lines, the lighting and pulling power comes via the overhead line. If the electric goes off, it is an unintended event, not meant to happen!
Ed
had8ley
Engineer
Au contraire...the engine providing HEP stays in run 8 position; the highest throttle position on a locomotive.You are saying that they do not routinely shut down the engine at stops???Broadly speaking, the electric power for lights, sockets, etc comes from a generator on the engine. If the engine itself shuts down, then power will be lost for the lights, etc. On systems with overhead power lines, the lighting and pulling power comes via the overhead line. If the electric goes off, it is an unintended event, not meant to happen!
Ed
the_traveler
Engineer
I would NOT use a plug-in digital clock on a train! I either use a battery powered alarm clock or my cell phone to know the time!
Maybe true on F40s, but not on Genesis.Au contraire...the engine providing HEP stays in run 8 position; the highest throttle position on a locomotive.You are saying that they do not routinely shut down the engine at stops???Broadly speaking, the electric power for lights, sockets, etc comes from a generator on the engine. If the engine itself shuts down, then power will be lost for the lights, etc. On systems with overhead power lines, the lighting and pulling power comes via the overhead line. If the electric goes off, it is an unintended event, not meant to happen!
Ed
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
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AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
On old F40s yes, but that should not be the case in engines that have separate pony motor for HEP or in the newer engines that have more sophisticated HEP systems.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Shutting down and re-starting a 16-cylinder diesel where each cylinder displaces more than the motor of a Mack truck is what you call an "event". It is done on very rare occasions, and certainly not for an engine idling at a stop. It would not surprise me if these things, prior to the energy conservation policies Amtrak put in place recently, were shut down for servicing and very little else.Broadly speaking, the electric power for lights, sockets, etc comes from a generator on the engine. If the engine itself shuts down, then power will be lost for the lights, etc. On systems with overhead power lines, the lighting and pulling power comes via the overhead line. If the electric goes off, it is an unintended event, not meant to happen!
Ed
If you haven't noticed, big-rig truckers shut down their motors overnight (if they are sleeping outside of their vehicle), or where ill-thought-out regulations require them to do so.
(Fascinating fact: diesel engines use an astonishing percentage of fuel during start up such that, in terms of fuel economy, it makes more sense to leave it idling for 5 minutes then to shut it down and restart it 5 minutes later. Furthermore, not only does it save fuel, but it greatly reduces overall emissions.)
Shawn
Service Attendant
Here is a quick answer:
If they are stopping for 15 mins or more, they are switching from "Run" to "stand by" on the HEP. Switching to this position requires the momentary loss of power to the train, but comes back within about 1 min. Stand by saves a good amount of fuel. You'll notice that the same process will happen again prior to the train moving.
If they are stopping for 15 mins or more, they are switching from "Run" to "stand by" on the HEP. Switching to this position requires the momentary loss of power to the train, but comes back within about 1 min. Stand by saves a good amount of fuel. You'll notice that the same process will happen again prior to the train moving.
That is exactly how it was happening. Problem is that on the LSL, it was turning on the sleeper bedroom lights every time they did this; in the middle of the night when everyone was sleeping. Not good.
had8ley
Engineer
It would likely have been the last unit in the line, closest to the cars.
oldtimer
OBS Chief
The problem with the trip mentioned on the Lake Shore as I read it was the Head End Power,(HEP) went out every time the train stopped and came on by itself when the train moved. This points directly to a problem with the HEP safety circuit (TLC specifically).
The F40 locomotives that were used in the past would not produce HEP if this circuit was not complete. Amtrak's current fleet of diesels as produced by GE will allow the HEP to be produced if the locomotive is above a certain speed (5 mph if I recall correctly). This would explain the OP's problem.
:unsure: :unsure:
The F40 locomotives that were used in the past would not produce HEP if this circuit was not complete. Amtrak's current fleet of diesels as produced by GE will allow the HEP to be produced if the locomotive is above a certain speed (5 mph if I recall correctly). This would explain the OP's problem.
:unsure:
:unsure:Aloha
This sounds very much like the engines up front on the LSL to Boston we had on the last Gathering from Chicago. Eventually that night though it shut down completely. We were blocking a freight. Just before they said the freight was going to push us into a siding, they got the engine restarted, and it worked correctly the rest of the way.
Alan, who was checking on our arrival received information about where we were and when we would arrive was way off.
had8ley
Engineer
I guess my real question is; do Dash 8's have to power up to notch 8 to provide HEP?
Dutchrailnut
Conductor
Answer is no,the Genesis P40-P42 and the B32-8''s run at 900 RPM or about notch 6 for HEP
this reason why a single locomotive not only losses the kilowatts for HEP from traction but also about 20% of total engine horsepower.
I just got back from LD trips on the CS and EB. Over 30 hours each way. Not once did the power go off like the last trip.
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