what happened to las vegas amtrak?

[tahoejeff]

i know i rode amtrak to las vegas around 15 years ago. probably the southwest chief. why is this service no longer offered? i remember we got off the train at the Palace Station casino downtown. wasn't this route a money maker? did this route run through denver? it almost seems like i included a ski trip to winter park on the same trip.

i see i could take it from chi to needles...what kind of transportation is there from needles to vegas? could i rent a car there?

 

[Amtrak Kid]

I believe there is a motorcoach to LV.

Corey

 

[Trogdor]

The Desert Wind used to serve Las Vegas en route from Chicago to Los Angeles (as a branch of the California Zephyr route). That route (along with the Zephyr's other "branch" route, the Pioneer to Portland/Seattle) was cut back in 1997.

 

[Everydaymatters]

The train that went to LasVegas was the Desert Wind and it did go through Denver.

This past October I took the train to go to LasVegas. Amtrak had a vans waiting for us in Kingman, Arizona, which took us to the airport in LasVegas.

Going back from LasVegas, the van picked us up at the airport and took us to Kingman. They dropped us off at the "depot", which was actually just a very old store front. The crew was in a storefront next door and they let us know when the train was arriving. We walked about 1/2 block from the store to the train.

Not nearly as nice as going right into LasVegas on the Desert Wind, but it got us there.

 

[frj1983]

Last I heard or read:

Some sort of environmental study had to be done(was it ever completed?)and UP was balking at the idea. Add to that the heavy, frequent, and fast bus service to Vegas and I wonder if it's worth spending the money?

Would the train be fast enough to compete with cars and buses? Unless it was as fast or faster, you'll never get people to take the train to Vegas.

 

[AlanB]

Last I heard or read:
Some sort of environmental study had to be done(was it ever completed?)and UP was balking at the idea. Add to that the heavy, frequent, and fast bus service to Vegas and I wonder if it's worth spending the money?

Would the train be fast enough to compete with cars and buses? Unless it was as fast or faster, you'll never get people to take the train to Vegas.

Considering the huge traffic jams that often occur on I-15, the train could compete quite nicely as long as UP doesn't torpedo it, after it leaves BNSF tracks. Throw in a few track improvements to get the speeds up to 90 MPH or even 110 MPH for part of the journey and there would be no competition from the buses.

At present the two biggest problems for LV service are Amtrak's no new services clause in their funding from the Fed, and UP. There were studies done years ago and they all passed. There were even track improvements done on the UP, paid for by Amtrak and others while those studies were on going. By the time everything was in place to start up a service, UP decided that the line was too busy and demmanded more improvements, which killed the service resumption.

What's needed right now to get this back and running is a cooperation agreement between the LV casinos and Amtrak, much like NJT just signed with the Atlantic City casinos. With some backing from the Casino's, as well as packages being offered by the casinos, getting service restarted would be a no-brainer. Sadly, at least so far, the casino's don't see the need to spend the extra money. Hopefully though, the NJT AC service will be a hit and LV will wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[frj1983]

Last I heard or read:

Some sort of environmental study had to be done(was it ever completed?)and UP was balking at the idea. Add to that the heavy, frequent, and fast bus service to Vegas and I wonder if it's worth spending the money?

Would the train be fast enough to compete with cars and buses? Unless it was as fast or faster, you'll never get people to take the train to Vegas.

Considering the huge traffic jams that often occur on I-15, the train could compete quite nicely as long as UP doesn't torpedo it, after it leaves BNSF tracks. Throw in a few track improvements to get the speeds up to 90 MPH or even 110 MPH for part of the journey and there would be no competition from the buses.

At present the two biggest problems for LV service are Amtrak's no new services clause in their funding from the Fed, and UP. There were studies done years ago and they all passed. There were even track improvements done on the UP, paid for by Amtrak and others while those studies were on going. By the time everything was in place to start up a service, UP decided that the line was too busy and demmanded more improvements, which killed the service resumption.

What's needed right now to get this back and running is a cooperation agreement between the LV casinos and Amtrak, much like NJT just signed with the Atlantic City casinos. With some backing from the Casino's, as well as packages being offered by the casinos, getting service restarted would be a no-brainer. Sadly, at least so far, the casino's don't see the need to spend the extra money. Hopefully though, the NJT AC service will be a hit and LV will wake up and smell the coffee.

That's fascinating Alan,

I worked a convention in Vegas this past October, and the majority of people from California that I spoke to all drove. They did not seem to mind the 5 hour trip and few said anything about traffic jams on I5. That's why I thought it would be difficult to get California people out of their cars if they thought 5 hours was a short trip! 5 hours in a car for that distance would drive me nuts! That's why I avoid the tollways in the Chicago area as much as possible.

I, too, would be interested in knowing how the AC/NJT plan works out.

 

[AlanB]

I worked a convention in Vegas this past October, and the majority of people from California that I spoke to all drove. They did not seem to mind the 5 hour trip and few said anything about traffic jams on I5. That's why I thought it would be difficult to get California people out of their cars if they thought 5 hours was a short trip! 5 hours in a car for that distance would drive me nuts! That's why I avoid the tollways in the Chicago area as much as possible.

While I'm far from an expert on LAX to Vegas traffic, I can tell you that my recent experience this past June while driving from Ontario, CA to Lake Havasu City, AZ saw me on I-15 till the split with I-40 east. That was on a weekday and probably around 10 AM or so, just after rush hour, which of course would have been westbound/southbound anyhow, whereas I was going east/north against the main flow. There was definately plenty of traffic heading towards the LA area including a few backups. And going in my direction there was still plenty of traffic as well as a few points where we slowed down to about 30 to 40 MPH.

I can only imagine what it must look like during evening rush hour and especially on Friday nights, the get away day.

I've also read dozens of articles talking about the traffic issues/nightmares along I-15 on the way to Vegas, so I'm guessing that either those you spoke with didn't care how long it took them or just figured that everyone knows that traffic is never fun in the LA area.

 

[Guest]

I think LA area groups are worried that they will lose money of some kind to Vegas if they make it easy to get there. I know there are multiple proposals for LA to Las Vegas, including a MagLev (unlikely)

 

[rmgreenesq]

I too wondered why Amtrak cut the LA to Vegas line in 97. Having grown up and lived in Southen California for 32 years and having driven to Vegas many times, I know of the traffic jams that occur on I-15.

Most of them occur north and west of Barstow and well after the I-40 split. The traffic jams occur as a result of accidents from excessive speed. The posted speed limit out there is 70 or 75 mph, but 90 mph is pretty normal. When cars crash at 90 mph, people die.

I rode the Desert Wind once to Vegas to attend a friend's wedding. I was commuting to LA via metrolink and wanted to ride one of those big superliners I walked past every day to get on my train. I don't remember how late it was, but suffice it to say, it was really late.

Rick

 

[TransAtlantic]

Back at the time the Desert Wind was cut, the state of Nevada and city of Las Vegas knew the value of visitors by train, and actually ponied up the money for a consist of Talgos; they toured Southern Cal, and did some testing on the line, but it was shown that UP and BNSF needed to upgrade their tracks in some areas, particularly around Cajon Pass. That was bogged down because of some severe environmental restrictions that the railroads didn't want to spend the money to take care of (the existing tracks and rights-of-way, despite being ancient, are/were suitable for their freights, for the most part). The equipment was moved to Seattle, where it remains, leased by Amtrak and the state of Washington for the Seattle - Vancouver B.C. Cascades service.

If they ever get the right-of-way issues solved, they'll be able to run a nonstop or limited-stop train between LA and Vegas at up to 90 mph, or (if the railroads will come up with extra funds for it) up to 125 on a dedicated right of way for parts of the journey.

 

[GG-1 on borrowed machine]

I too wondered why Amtrak cut the LA to Vegas line in 97. Having grown up and lived in Southen California for 32 years and having driven to Vegas many times, I know of the traffic jams that occur on I-15.
I rode the Desert Wind once to Vegas to attend a friend's wedding. I was commuting to LA via metrolink and wanted to ride one of those big superliners I walked past every day to get on my train. I don't remember how late it was, but suffice it to say, it was really late.

Rick

Aloha

I rode the Desert Wind twice to Vegas, It was late both times, but decending into the valley with those lights on was worth the delay. Think the arival in November(both times) was just after dusk. And to borrow a quote "late train means more time on train"

 

[George Harris]

or (if the railroads will come up with extra funds for it) up to 125 on a dedicated right of way for parts of the journey.

First and foremost, the railroads are NOT going to "come up with" the extra funds to run any 125 mph service anywhere. If the the states or feds want ot run high speed passenger service, then they are the ones that need to come up with the money. It is all the railroads can do to come up with the money to increase capacity to keep the freight trains running, and there and only there is where the income is. The target appears to be to get the tracks to the state that the priority freights can move at 70 mph, which is alos sufficient for any passenger trains to be allowed 79 mph, or 90 mph, signal systems permitting.

If there is truly demand for reasonably fast passenger trains to Las Vegas, then California and Nevada better start thinking about how to double track the UP throughout and adding a third main - at least - in the area of BNSF trackage rights - east of Dagget. A fourth over Cahon or a double track tunnel to reduce the climb would be in order also.

George

 

[racer1735]

i know i rode amtrak to las vegas around 15 years ago. probably the southwest chief. why is this service no longer offered? i remember we got off the train at the Palace Station casino downtown. wasn't this route a money maker?

The sad fact is that neither this route, nor any passenger route not involving HEAVY commuter traffic, has been a money maker in over 50 years. Read the histories of long-distance passenger service in this country and you'll find that even the 'crack' trains that we remember from the 'glory days' were hemorraghing money. It's just that they didn't have airline travel to contend with so they kept forging ahead.

Also, for those contemplating speeds of 100-110 mph on these routes, the standard Amtrak locomotive today is the AMD-103. The '103' refers to the fact that it is geared to 103 mph. I don't think Amtrak is going to invest in re-gearing until more money is found.

 

[AlanB]

Also, for those contemplating speeds of 100-110 mph on these routes, the standard Amtrak locomotive today is the AMD-103. The '103' refers to the fact that it is geared to 103 mph. I don't think Amtrak is going to invest in re-gearing until more money is found.

The AMD-103, more commonly known as the P40, was indeed geared for 103 MPH. It however is not the mainstay of the Amtrak fleet, in fact Amtrak currently runs no P40's in revenue service to my knowledge. They've all either been mothballed or leased out to commuter services.

The mainstay of the fleet is the P42, which is geared for 110 MPH. The P42 also has 2,000 more HP than does the P40/AMD 103.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Ummm, isn't that P42 actually 200 more HP than a P40 rather than 2,000 more? One too many zeros, I think.

 

[AlanB]

Ummm, isn't that P42 actually 200 more HP than a P40 rather than 2,000 more? One too many zeros, I think.

Oops, yup, one too many zero's and one too many commas. It's 200 HP more.

 

[George Harris]

Whether geared for 103 mph or 110 mph, except for BNSF's ex ATSF main, most of the tracks are limited to <80 mph by federal regualation that requires more than the normal signal system to go faster than that. The limit of 70 mph on even the hottest freight trains and normal use of insufficient power to maintain that except downhill, or maybe level, even running 79 means you are constantly running up on freight trains, so faster locomotives is way down the list of things needed to operate fast and RELIABLY fast passenger service in most parts of the country.

 

[warbonnet]

I-15 is still drivable Monday through Thursday between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. The crunch on Friday afternoons and nights northbound, and Sunday afternoons southbound from Vegas is a nightmare. The gaming corporations did pony up some money a few years ago to help with the rebuilding and design of the 1-15\I-40 interchange in Barstow as people were leaving Vegas early Sunday mornings to beat the conjustion at that junction. The casinos certainly don't want people leaving early to beat traffic. As Alan indicated in an eariler post, the rail solution would need to come from a partnership between California, Nevada, and maybe the gaming industry. My personal opinion is good luck getting the casinos to kick in any money at this point. They are swamped with customers already. They have implied the gamblers are coming "train or no train". I'm sorry to admit based on the attendance figures in Vegas, they are probably right. As for me, driving to Vegas anymore on the weekend is out of the question. Too much traffic and only a matter of when and where the collision is going to be. You don't want to get caught up in the back up as from my experience, the accident scene won't clear until the Mercy Air chopper flys the victims out. I do believe rail service could be sucessful between LAX\LAS if scheduled properly.

Wb

So. Cal

 

[railfangns]

I rode the desert wind once going eastbound and we stopped in Las vegas.Amtrak goofed up

and cut the trains operation from daily to triweekly before they killed it.To be successful you

must run all trains daily especally in areas that sees a lot of traffic.3 times a week in both

directions going to vegas wont work.People would like to leave LAX perhaps on Friday and return

home on Sunday or Monday giving them a long weekend to enjoy vegas.To do that however the

desert wind would have to be daily in both directions.It would only take 2 or 3 sets to restore the

train perhaps more if it went on to and from chicago like it used to.Restore the Desert wind and

Pioneer and watch the ridership grow!

 

[saxman]

I rode the desert wind once going eastbound and we stopped in Las vegas.Amtrak goofed upand cut the trains operation from daily to triweekly before they killed it.To be successful you

must run all trains daily especally in areas that sees a lot of traffic.3 times a week in both

directions going to vegas wont work.People would like to leave LAX perhaps on Friday and return

home on Sunday or Monday giving them a long weekend to enjoy vegas.To do that however the

desert wind would have to be daily in both directions.It would only take 2 or 3 sets to restore the

train perhaps more if it went on to and from chicago like it used to.Restore the Desert wind and

Pioneer and watch the ridership grow!

Not just daily, but it should be more than daily. At least the LAX to LAS portion should have a train every few hours. Then watch the ridership grow. Critics often disagree with me, but I think the more service, the more riders. And that goes for the entire nation.

 

[GG-1]

Critics often disagree with me, but I think the more service, the more riders. And that goes for the entire nation.

Aloha

I partly agree, there is a limit to the amount service of that can be supported, but when the train is full as it was both times I took to LV from LA it should not be canceled.

I think that route should have 2 trips each way, one arriving dinner time Vegas and leaving just after LA work schedules. not sure about return times, maybe arriving LA in time for work.

 

[Everydaymatters]

I'm sure Amtrak could recapture a good portion of the air traffic from Chicago if it went directly to LasVegas again. I for one would have taken the trip a couple of times over the past 20 years if it wasn't for the fact that as it is now, the train arrives in Kingman, AZ about 1a.m. and the bus from Kingman to LasVegas arrives around 3:30 a.m. - IF the train is on time.

There are many, many planes from Chicago to LasVegas and the prices are very low. Possibly Amtrak couldn't compete with these low prices????

 

[haolerider]

I'm sure Amtrak could recapture a good portion of the air traffic from Chicago if it went directly to LasVegas again. I for one would have taken the trip a couple of times over the past 20 years if it wasn't for the fact that as it is now, the train arrives in Kingman, AZ about 1a.m. and the bus from Kingman to LasVegas arrives around 3:30 a.m. - IF the train is on time.
There are many, many planes from Chicago to LasVegas and the prices are very low. Possibly Amtrak couldn't compete with these low prices????

Amtrak could never compete with the charter operators who fly groups into Vegas. Most of those operators serve 2nd and 3rd tier cities that don't have great airline connections and the prices are extremely low. The prime money maker for Amtrak would be direct LAX - Vegas service that would actually get people off the highway - which if you have ever driven it is terrible and gridlock on weekends.

 

[gswager]

Amtrak could never compete with the charter operators who fly groups into Vegas. Most of those operators serve 2nd and 3rd tier cities that don't have great airline connections and the prices are extremely low. The prime money maker for Amtrak would be direct LAX - Vegas service that would actually get people off the highway - which if you have ever driven it is terrible and gridlock on weekends.

I agree with you about the potential market to Las Vegas. If I would start up the Amtrak train, then I would place it between LAUS to Las Vegas. Few years down the road, then I would expand it to Ogden, UT (Salt Lake City) and hook up with CA Zephyr (as long as the one-time performance is good). Thorny issue is the reputation of UP.

There was an attempt to start up the train by private operator, Fun Train(?) decade ago, but it doesn't work out very well, probably lack of awareness.