What new route do you want Amtrak to use

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Before any new service is started, Amtrak needs to do something with the gaps in service now.

Sunset: NOL-ORL --- operated as a second train to ensure no more 28-hour late service. Guarantee overnight accomodations in NOL for First Class passengers, and at-cost discounted room for Coach.

Sunset: NOL-ELP --- reroute via BTR-SHR-DAL-FTW-Midland, TX-ELP

This would cover alot of new turf and lots of new passengers.

Heartland Flyer: Extend service to north to NEW and south to SAS, including adding First Class service and a Diner (oops) and Lounge

NEW SERVICE: FTW-HOS

Texas Crescent: split the Crescent for a MEI-FTW service. Better service to/from the East Coast, including service to Jackson, Monroe, Shreveport.

Service Changes:

for SAS, the loss of Sunset would be compensated by the addition of Heartland Flyer.

for HOS, loss of Sunset replaced by service HOS-DAL-FTW

for Del Rio, Sanderson, Alpine: bus service. Maybe a limo if booked far enough in advance !!!

The two changes would add a huge service dimension and dramatically increase ridership in the Southwest.
 
Before any new service is started, Amtrak needs to do something with the gaps in service now.

Sunset: NOL-ORL --- operated as a second train to ensure no more 28-hour late service. Guarantee overnight accomodations in NOL for First Class passengers, and at-cost discounted room for Coach.

Sunset: NOL-ELP --- reroute via BTR-SHR-DAL-FTW-Midland, TX-ELP

This would cover alot of new turf and lots of new passengers.

Heartland Flyer: Extend service to north to NEW and south to SAS, including adding First Class service and a Diner (oops) and Lounge

NEW SERVICE: FTW-HOS

Texas Crescent: split the Crescent for a MEI-FTW service. Better service to/from the East Coast, including service to Jackson, Monroe, Shreveport.

Service Changes:

for SAS, the loss of Sunset would be compensated by the addition of Heartland Flyer.

for HOS, loss of Sunset replaced by service HOS-DAL-FTW

for Del Rio, Sanderson, Alpine: bus service. Maybe a limo if booked far enough in advance !!!

The two changes would add a huge service dimension and dramatically increase ridership in the Southwest.
Pretty interesting... couldn't you just take the Texas Eagle and extend it west out of Fort Worth to El Paso, where it'd join up with the Sunset? We'd have a "true" texas eagle, I guess. That way you wouldn't lose the Sunset's proximity to Mexico and lose the service to Alpine, Sanderson, Del Rio, etc. Not sure of the real-world feasability on that sort of extension out of Fort Worth, but it looks nice on the map <grin>.

-Rafi
 
GRR to DET
I think a logical one would be Bakersfield to LA, linking the San Joaquin to Pacific Surfliner. Or San Luis Obispo to San Jose (as a corridor service). In fact, I'm surprised these aren't realistic possibilities.
 
I think a logical one would be Bakersfield to LA, linking the San Joaquin to Pacific Surfliner. Or San Luis Obispo to San Jose (as a corridor service). In fact, I'm surprised these aren't realistic possibilities.
While it is realistic looking at it on the map, the hard part is there is a lot of rough terrain between Bakersfield and LA that would have to be tunneled through in order to create service that would be competitive. Unfortunately the State of California does not have the cash at this point in time to undertake such a project.
 
I think a logical one would be Bakersfield to LA, linking the San Joaquin to Pacific Surfliner. Or San Luis Obispo to San Jose (as a corridor service). In fact, I'm surprised these aren't realistic possibilities.
While it is realistic looking at it on the map, the hard part is there is a lot of rough terrain between Bakersfield and LA that would have to be tunneled through in order to create service that would be competitive. Unfortunately the State of California does not have the cash at this point in time to undertake such a project.
I'd guessed there must be something like that. How about corridor service San Luis Obispo to San Jose? Not enough people? Too many freight trains?
 
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Pretty interesting... couldn't you just take the Texas Eagle and extend it west out of Fort Worth to El Paso, where it'd join up with the Sunset? We'd have a "true" texas eagle, I guess. That way you wouldn't lose the Sunset's proximity to Mexico and lose the service to Alpine, Sanderson, Del Rio, etc. Not sure of the real-world feasability on that sort of extension out of Fort Worth, but it looks nice on the map <grin>.
-Rafi
How about just plain corridor service b/w Houston, San Antonio, Austin and Dallas (or a combination thereof)? I'm surprised this doesn't exist - it seems perfect for it: all in one state, populated, all relatively close, flat land. Are freight and political will the issues as always?
 
I think a logical one would be Bakersfield to LA, linking the San Joaquin to Pacific Surfliner. Or San Luis Obispo to San Jose (as a corridor service). In fact, I'm surprised these aren't realistic possibilities.
While it is realistic looking at it on the map, the hard part is there is a lot of rough terrain between Bakersfield and LA that would have to be tunneled through in order to create service that would be competitive. Unfortunately the State of California does not have the cash at this point in time to undertake such a project.
I'd guessed there must be something like that. How about corridor service San Luis Obispo to San Jose? Not enough people? Too many freight trains?
Sorry for the third consecutive post - but the map in this pdf shows there to be some kind of plan for a Bakersfield- LA connection. Of course, the entire .pdf seems full of ideas what to build and poor in suggestions for how to finance it. THe cost and projected revenue estimates also seem rather rosy:

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/implemen...ntationPlan.pdf
 
Dinker:

What you have run across is the California High Speed Railroad website.

The objective is to build a 200 mph railroad between Los Angeles and the Bay Area / Sacramento. The objective is 2 hour 30 minutes run time between LA and SF, which is airplane competitive time. There have been serious preliminary studies for it, and the next stage of design work is about to start.

It is realistic and do-able. Yes, it wil be expensive but no more so than adding the equivalent capacity ot the highway system.

The problem is more lack of political will to do so, and also the huge NIMBY problem you have with anything in California. These things always take a lot of time. You probably saw int he report that this thing has been seriously studied since about 1996. Seems slow, but not out of the ordinary for these things. If you want instant gratification in your life, the last thing you do is get involved in the planning and engineering of new railroads. For example, the Taiwan High Speed Railway is currently in a state of completion of all works and doing test running, opening shortly. But when I came to this island the first time in 1990, I had just gotten my hands on the basic study document for the system, dated 1989. 18 years from start of serious planning to completion.

I'm still looking at the California HSR as my potential next job.

The current rail route between Bakersfield and Los Angeles would take about 6 hours plus, and between Bakersfield and Palmdale is heavily congested with freight.

George
 
I would say Chicago to Florida. I can wish, huh? Not Chicago to Washington D.C. and then to Florida.
 
I believe one of the original intentions of the K-Card was to eventually extend all the way through to Florida. Unfortunately with the line to Louisville being in such poor shape they were never able to see it through because of the short term inviability.
 
I was wondering which what new routes are needed in the States to help further train travel. I have traveled many of the routes except for the Crescent, which I hope to do this year. But what route is needed or would be traveled by many of the tourists that take Amtrak???

Bill
I wish there were some way of reviving the old "South Wind," Chicago to Florida via Nashville/Louisville, Atlanta, rather than the current route of going to DC and then heading south. I'm not sure that the trackage is present or in good shape to handle it though.

I agree 100% with a direct Chicago - Florida service. But this service should be another Auto Train service. The midwest would be a huge market for it's own Auto Train. I would love to take the exsisting Auto Train, but for me to drive to the N.E. part of Virginia to take it is a bit out of the way from many midwestern states. I would be almost better off driving directly to Florida.
 
I have always wanted to see an expanded Pere Marquette service. I would continue East on CSX's main line from Grand Rapids to Detroit, stopping at East Lansing, Brighton/Howell and Plymouth. This would directly connect Michigan's 2 largest cities with the state capitol.
 
I've wondered whether an expansion of Auto-Train routes might be a winner. It does seem like Chicago - Florida would be a good one to add - and unlike with the current Auto-Train, (it only runs to Virginia rather than all the way To Washington DC, Philadelphia or New York) you could run Superliners all the way to Chicago, or even all the way West from there to Seattle. I wonder if Amtrak shouldn't at least do some market research on this to see how many folks would be interested in it.
 
Can't believe I forgot to mention this one:
Split either the Lakeshore or the Capital at Toledo and provide service to Detroit and possibly Pontiac. Right now, east coasters have to either take a bus connection or travel all of the way over to Chicago only to backtrack along some serious congestion and possible delays just to hit Michigan. The Toledo station, incidentally, has pictures of the lakeshore making this split years ago (not sure if it was pre Amtrak or not), so it's been done before.

-Rafi
This was done and ended around 1994/95. The Lake Cities which was 1 of the 3 current Wolverine trains had a direct connection with the CL and LSL from TOL to DET and then to CHI. I dont blame Amtrak at all for discontinueing the train connection to TOL and moving to a bus. The reason is this. ...

The 1993/94 timetable gives # 353 1 hr 35min to travel 56 miles from DET to TOL. The current bus takes 1 hr 5 min to travel 58 miles. Also I know for a fact that a new engineer was put on at Detroit to take the run to TOL. he would spend the night in a motel in TOL and then return on the TOL - DET run the next morning. He would get paid 8 hours for two 1hr and 35 minute runs. Amtrak probably figured it would be cheeper to run a bus with a driver making half the wage as an engineer.
 
Can't believe I forgot to mention this one:

Split either the Lakeshore or the Capital at Toledo and provide service to Detroit and possibly Pontiac. Right now, east coasters have to either take a bus connection or travel all of the way over to Chicago only to backtrack along some serious congestion and possible delays just to hit Michigan. The Toledo station, incidentally, has pictures of the lakeshore making this split years ago (not sure if it was pre Amtrak or not), so it's been done before.

-Rafi
This was done and ended around 1994/95. The Lake Cities which was 1 of the 3 current Wolverine trains had a direct connection with the CL and LSL from TOL to DET and then to CHI. I dont blame Amtrak at all for discontinueing the train connection to TOL and moving to a bus.
That assumes that one can actually get on the bus. Actually to be fair, it is possible that Amtrak has changed companies or at least forced Greyhound who was running the service at that point in time to fix the problem with that bus run. Below is part of a report that I wrote back in September 2001.

When I took the Pennsylvanian from Cleveland to connect with the Capital Limited after departing ClevFest, I had a 4-hour layover at Toledo. While I sat in the waiting room learning how to play Train Simulator on my laptop, I had the opportunity to witness Greyhound’s pitiful lack of concern over its agreement with Amtrak.
The westbound Pennsylvanian has a connection with Thruway Bus #8243 at 9:00pm. On this particular August night there were at least 20-25 people waiting for bus #8243. Approximately 10 minutes late a bus pulled up outside and in walked the Greyhound Driver. He walked over to the ticket counter and spoke to the agent for a about a minute. He then walked back across the waiting room and just before he went out the sliding door he stopped and turned. He then announced in a very surly voice with an, I don’t care attitude, that he had only 5 empty seats on the bus. He then immediately turned and went out the door.

For a few stunned seconds no one moved, and then about a dozen people grabbed their belongings and raced for the door. The rest just sat there stunned, either by the driver’s attitude or by the fact that they were now stranded or maybe both. While those inside started to collect their wits and try to figure out what to do, the losers in the free for all outside returned. Now it should be pointed out that all of these passengers had Amtrak tickets for this bus. From my conversations with a few of the people near me, and a few others that I overheard, most of these people had picked up their tickets at least 3 or 4 days prior to traveling. One young mother with 2 small children in tow that I spoke with extensively, had purchased her tickets almost 4 weeks prior. So it wasn’t like this was a sudden last minute decision on the part of all of these passengers.

A few of the now stranded passengers, including the young mother that I spoke with, went up to speak with the Amtrak agent. He asked them for their patience, said he was working with Greyhound to see if they had another bus, and to please return to their seats while he worked. He assured them that he would do everything he could possibly do. In my opinion he was extremely cool and professional under the circumstances.

After about ten minutes on the phone, the agent walked to the center of the waiting room to address all of the waiting passengers. He announced that Greyhound had no additional buses to send over. He then proceeded to tell them that he had paged his supervisor and was waiting for him to call back. He explained that he needed the manager’s permission to setup taxi service for the passengers. He asked for their continued patience, promised to keep them informed, and assured them that he was doing everything within his power.

Perhaps another 10 minutes went by before the agent once again came out. He told everyone that he had reached his supervisor and obtained approval for the taxies. He explained that the manager from the cab company was on his way over to make arrangements. He again thanked them for their continued patience, apologized for the problems, and the growing lateness of the hour.

Maybe five minutes later in walked the manager from the cab company. He immediately went over to the ticket counter to confer with the agent. After a few minutes of conversation, both the manager and the agent came out to talk with the passengers. The manager asked for a show of hands from all of those going to Detroit. The total came to 18 plus a fair amount of luggage. The manager told them that he already had 3 cabs coming, but that he needed to call for more. He promised that he would get them as quickly as possible. He then walked outside to speak with the first driver who had just showed up.

Finally around 9:45 the cab manager came in from outside and announced that he had enough cabs there for all of the waiting passengers. A total of two station wagons, three cars, and one van were waiting outside. The grateful passengers started filing outside to the waiting cars. The young mother and one other passenger quickly thanked the ticket agent, before proceeding outside.

Two new Amtrak agents came on duty at 10:00pm with the shift change. I could not completely hear all of the conversation, but I heard enough of the original agent telling the new arrivals of his fun and games for the evening. From what I did hear, I got the impression that this was not the first time that this had happened. Apparently Greyhound has decided that they would rather sell their own full priced tickets, than honor their commitment to Amtrak and the cheaper contract for the connecting service. This was however the worst overbooking that the agents had seen.

I find it incredible that Greyhound overbooks by that much. Even more astonishing was the driver’s surliness and total lack of feeling or concern for the people that he was stranding. If he had at least been polite and apologetic it would have helped a very difficult situation. I even heard several people comment on his rudeness.

The Amtrak agent however was the picture of perfection. He did everything right, he keep the people informed, he called all the people he could to solve the situation, he apologized for a situation he did not cause, he maintained his cool, and best of all he made sure that Amtrak was able to honor it’s commitment to it’s passengers. I especially liked the fact that he felt it was better to come out from behind the counter to speak more personally with the passengers, instead of remaining behind the counter and using the PA. It was a nice personal touch to try to connect with the group.

Sadly though, this is just one more expense that Amtrak didn’t need. Not to mention that I suspect that a few of the passengers will never return, even though Amtrak and its agent did everything right. I think that Amtrak seriously needs to consider continuing the contract with Greyhound, since they are apparently not interested in their commitment to Amtrak.
On this particular day it might well have been cheaper for Amtrak to actually have run the train between Toledo and Detriot. It certainly would have been better for Amtrak's image.
 
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Here in Michigan Amtrak now uses Metrocars and Trailways. Metrocars is a private company that I beleve is bassed at Detroit Metro Airport. Trailways is a Michigan bassed company too. The connecting bus service to TOL from DET, DER, ARB, and LNS is dedicated only to Amtrak passengers. So it's now very unlikely to have an overbooking, unless Amtrak screws it up. I have rode the bus to TOL many times for a LSL/CL connection and found that the service is very good in well apointed busses. I have yet had a bad experience on this bus connection
 
Here in Michigan Amtrak now uses Metrocars and Trailways. Metrocars is a private company that I beleve is bassed at Detroit Metro Airport. Trailways is a Michigan bassed company too. The connecting bus service to TOL from DET, DER, ARB, and LNS is dedicated only to Amtrak passengers. So it's now very unlikely to have an overbooking, unless Amtrak screws it up. I have rode the bus to TOL many times for a LSL/CL connection and found that the service is very good in well apointed busses. I have yet had a bad experience on this bus connection
Thanks, for that info. I'm glad to hear that Amtrak dumped that contract with Greyhound. :) What I observed back in 2001 was simply inexcusable and definately didn't put Amtrak into a good light. :angry:
 
I've wondered whether an expansion of Auto-Train routes might be a winner. It does seem like Chicago - Florida would be a good one to add - and unlike with the current Auto-Train, (it only runs to Virginia rather than all the way To Washington DC, Philadelphia or New York) you could run Superliners all the way to Chicago, or even all the way West from there to Seattle. I wonder if Amtrak shouldn't at least do some market research on this to see how many folks would be interested in it.
For a few years back in the mid-70's there actually was an auto train from Louisville to Florida.

Like the Floridian it floundered around with slow schedules, delays, maybe a wredk or two, can't trememberetc Was not the rousing success it has been on the East Coast.

Vaguely in my mind I thnk at one time it was attached to the Floridian, a rolling disaster, though to be honest I am not quite sure how that worked, i.e. extremely long terminal times at Louisvlle((???), multi stops, damaged autombiles, slack problems etc. Maybe I am getting confused.Mr. Harris might have a clearer memory of the mid-west auto train than I have. As always I am at my office, away from my sources.

I might be wrong about the auto train at times being combined with the Floridian--If I am, just shoot me !! (smiling faces) But I am not wrong about their being a Mid-west Florida auto train, and that it did not do well or last long, for whatever reasons. .
 
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Pretty interesting... couldn't you just take the Texas Eagle and extend it west out of Fort Worth to El Paso, where it'd join up with the Sunset? We'd have a "true" texas eagle, I guess. That way you wouldn't lose the Sunset's proximity to Mexico and lose the service to Alpine, Sanderson, Del Rio, etc. Not sure of the real-world feasability on that sort of extension out of Fort Worth, but it looks nice on the map <grin>.
-Rafi
Once you get west of Fort Worth there isn't a lot of population to service until you get to El Paso. Maybe the San Angelo/Permian Basin area but that is it. I'd think it better to either continue South to San Antonio or split Northwest to Amarillo, then across to Albuquerque to hook up with the Southwest Limited. Then again, you are crossing very unpopulated areas.
 
Bill,

You are right about the midwest Autotrain being combined with the Floridian. It was a disaster for both parties.

The Midwest Autotrain was probably the primary cause of bankruptcy and liquidation of the original Autotrain company.

The east coast Autotrain approximated driving time in speed, and with the usual automobile meal stops beat it significantly. A night on the east coast Autotrain equated one maybe two nights on the road for the northeast to Florida drivers. Remember, their primary market was, and I think still is, the well off middle adged and older either retirees in Florida or vacationers with Florida as their primary destination, and of course the transplanted Floridians with northeastern connections doing the same thing in reverse. These people are not the get out there and drive 18 hours straight crowd.

The Midwest to Florida market is and always has been much smaller than the northeast to Florida market. Picture that in the premier passenger days, both ACL adn SAL had multiple fast trains, and all were long. Two Champions and the Florida Special on the ACL, the Silver Meteor and Silver Star on the SAL. In addition, there were several "secondary" trians that carried respectable loads. Out of Chicago there was only one daily fast train. Yes, there were three, but they were every third day, so effectively one daily train. These trians, even combined with the other trains, Royal Palm, Southland, etc. never approached the total passenger counts out of the norhteast. In addition, the midwest rail links are all slower speed.

the Midwest Autotrain appeared to have been started with more optimism than realism. The combination with the Floridian was a move of desperation to save it. It probably really did not hurt the run time that much, as the Floridian did not make a lot of stops. What hurt run time and reliability more was the track condition of the route. The L&N was deteriorating and the ACL line south of Montgomery was at best an unsignaled secondary main dropping to branch line status.

I don't see a big passenger loading possible for a midwest to Florida auto train unless and until the train can average about 55 mph or more, and at this point I am not sure there is a route available where it could avarage as much as 45 mph.

George
 
I have always wanted to see an expanded Pere Marquette service. I would continue East on CSX's main line from Grand Rapids to Detroit, stopping at East Lansing, Brighton/Howell and Plymouth. This would directly connect Michigan's 2 largest cities with the state capitol.
I agree. This could be a heck of a train, especially if they made it a good fast one with the proper services and a good schedule.
 
I don't see a big passenger loading possible for a midwest to Florida auto train unless and until the train can average about 55 mph or more, and at this point I am not sure there is a route available where it could avarage as much as 45 mph.
George

I disagree with you with your opinion on not having enough passenger load on a mid-west Auto Train. However I do agree that track conditions would need to be upgraded to allow at least a 60MPH service.

The mid-west I beleave has a huge potential if the station was placed in a GOOD location. Indianapolis may be a good choice. Chicago, Indianapolis, Minneapolis / St. Paul, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cincinatti, Kansas City, and St. Louis would benefit. Infact the population of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Kentucky, Iowa, and Missouri totals to 62,637,820. The Northeast states that the current Auto Train probably is marketing to (Maine, Vermont, New York, Mass., Conn, Penn, Maryland, West Virgina, Virginia, D.C. , New Hampshire, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Delaware) has a total population of 69,133,382. This is only a difference of about 7,000,000. Also note I did not include far mid-western states that may take advantage of such a service like North and South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas. So I beleve we have the population base, and healthy household income in the mid-west to support such a service. And by the way, it seems like everybody and their mother goes to Florida here in the mid-west, especially in the winter.
 
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There are two major obstacles you have to overcome, getting the line in good enough shape to run competitive service and getting the freight companies to agree to run it. For the two big boys in this market (CSX and NS) there is a lot of money in high priority Intermodal and Auto Rack trains that they don't want to see quelled by Amtrak. There would be big Infrastructure demands, including more ballast, heavier rail, new ties, double track, CTC, new sidings. etc. none of which are cheap. So this project would require a lot of resources from the States and the Feds to happen. Also, to be able to run competitive service you'd have to get the track up to 70 MPH (the fastest you can run the Carriers at) otherwise the highways will continue to dominate.
 
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