What new route do you want Amtrak to use

[BillVas]

I was wondering which what new routes are needed in the States to help further train travel. I have traveled many of the routes except for the Crescent, which I hope to do this year. But what route is needed or would be traveled by many of the tourists that take Amtrak???

Bill

 

[frj1983]

I was wondering which what new routes are needed in the States to help further train travel. I have traveled many of the routes except for the Crescent, which I hope to do this year. But what route is needed or would be traveled by many of the tourists that take Amtrak???
Bill

I wish there were some way of reviving the old "South Wind," Chicago to Florida via Nashville/Louisville, Atlanta, rather than the current route of going to DC and then heading south. I'm not sure that the trackage is present or in good shape to handle it though.

 

[haolerider]

Chicago to Florida

Atlanta to Florida

New Orleans to Florida - daily

 

[redsandal]

I would like to see:

El Paso

Albuquerque

Denver

Casper

Billings

West Glacier

Albuquerque

Denver

Rapid City

St. Paul

For starters

 

[Rafi]

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again:

I'd love to see the Cardinal split at Cincinnati with one branch extending to Effingham to connect to either the Saluki, Illini, or City, and then continuing on to St. Louis, providing a connection with a Lincoln service or the Texas as well as with the Missouri route to Kansas City (or continuing to Kansas City itself).

The other branch would continue to Chicago, as is now the case.

Such an extension would facilitate much, much better connections to the midwest from the Mid-Atlantic and southern states, as folks could have a one seat ride to Effingham, St. Louis, and possibly Kansas City from as far as New York or Charlottesville without having to kill time backtracking up to Chicago, only to catch a later train heading south. The added connections would also hopefully go a long way to making the Cardinal a much more popular route, possibly bringing one or both legs to daily frequencies. The scenery can't be beat east of the Mississippi, either.

One can dream.

-Rafi

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I was wondering which what new routes are needed in the States to help further train travel. I have traveled many of the routes except for the Crescent, which I hope to do this year. But what route is needed or would be traveled by many of the tourists that take Amtrak???

Bill

I wish there were some way of reviving the old "South Wind," Chicago to Florida via Nashville/Louisville, Atlanta, rather than the current route of going to DC and then heading south. I'm not sure that the trackage is present or in good shape to handle it though.

I agree withi your sentiments. Just a brief pre-Amtrak historical correction. The South WInd did not go through Atlanta. It went CHI, Indy, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery, JAX and Miami. The primary train from CHI to Miami which went via the Atlanta was the Dixie Flagler(later re-named Dixieland). It went CHI, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, JAK,Miami. (and was discontinued in 1957). A secondary heavyweight known as the Dixie Flyer lasted until about 1969, as I recall.

There were various other pre-Amtrak routes as well. From various mid-west points to Florida.

Amtrak's Floridian, which was the train originally known as the South Wind, never went through Atlanta.

There were some pre-Amtrak routes from Cincinnati to Florida which went through Atlanta. .I could go on and on (I grew up with these trains) but don't think you necessarily are asking about all that. just wanted to clear up that Amtrak never went through Atlanta from Chicago to Florida , either under the older name of South Wind or the more recent name of Floridian.

 

[Sam Damon]

Keeping in mind -- no bucks, no Buck Rogers -- here's a couple I'd like revived.

Chicago to Florida, if we could keep a steady 90 mph.

Pittsburgh via Columbus, OH and Indianapolis to St. Louis, if we could keep a steady 90 mph, and get the RoW back from the rail-trailers.

Perhaps Rafi's idea of splitting the Cardinal at Cincinnati and sending a section to St. Louis. I'm not quite sure of the routing there.

 

[creddick]

I agree. A direct Chicago - Florida train would be wonderful.

 

[racer1735]

Perhaps Rafi's idea of splitting the Cardinal at Cincinnati and sending a section to St. Louis. I'm not quite sure of the routing there.

Split it at Indianapolis, rather than Cincy. Then you have the direct route from Indy to Chicago, as well as the current CSX (I beleive) route from Indy through Effingham to St. Louis.

 

[Rafi]

Perhaps Rafi's idea of splitting the Cardinal at Cincinnati and sending a section to St. Louis. I'm not quite sure of the routing there.

Split it at Indianapolis, rather than Cincy. Then you have the direct route from Indy to Chicago, as well as the current CSX (I beleive) route from Indy through Effingham to St. Louis.

I think Indy's a good splitting point too, but there are a few compelling reasons I suggest Cincy as a more practical splitting point:

-Cincy arrival and departure time is in the wee hours of the morning with ample layover time, which is when it seems that Amtrak generally likes to split/join cars to/from trains (see Empire Builder and Texas Eagle/Sunset)

-Key connections with morning trains in Effingham (northbound) and St. Louis (westbound) is tight, and going up to Indy before the split would kill the connection unless Amtrak's willing to push connection departure times in Effingham and St. Louis back a few hours.

 

[AmtrakFan]

Chicago-Flordia

New York-Kansas City Connections with the Capital Limited, Cardinal Illini, Saluki, The Eagle, The Chief

Denver-New Orelans.

 

[AlanB]

Perhaps Rafi's idea of splitting the Cardinal at Cincinnati and sending a section to St. Louis. I'm not quite sure of the routing there.

Split it at Indianapolis, rather than Cincy. Then you have the direct route from Indy to Chicago, as well as the current CSX (I beleive) route from Indy through Effingham to St. Louis.

I think Indy's a good splitting point too, but there are a few compelling reasons I suggest Cincy as a more practical splitting point:

-Cincy arrival and departure time is in the wee hours of the morning with ample layover time, which is when it seems that Amtrak generally likes to split/join cars to/from trains (see Empire Builder and Texas Eagle/Sunset)

-Key connections with morning trains in Effingham (northbound) and St. Louis (westbound) is tight, and going up to Indy before the split would kill the connection unless Amtrak's willing to push connection departure times in Effingham and St. Louis back a few hours.

On the other hand a good argument for Indy is the fact that Amtrak is already often doing switching operatinons in Indy, since the Cardinal and the Hoosier State trains are often used to haul hospital cars. That is cars that are headed to Beech Grove for repairs and overhauls, as well as picking up cars that are now leaving the hospital. So with switching already happening in Indy, it wouldn't make sense to add still more switching in Cincy.

 

[WICT106]

For my own selfish reasons: have the Empire Builder swing south at Portage, WI, through Madison (with a stop there) and then to Milwaukee. Perhaps a permanent re-route. This assumes that the State of Wisconsin can find the funding or get some Federal funding to fix up the tracks around Madison. Amtrak is reluctant to travel on FRA Class 3 tracks, so the track has to be Class 4, at least.

CHI - FL ? Not unless you want to buy more track capacity around the southern Appalachians. Lots of 50 mph speed restrctions there, as well as congestion/capacity issues on the host railroads. Also, IIRC, the South Wind and Dixie Flagler seemed to be 2 nights and a day betweeen FL and Chicago. That's not that competitive with the current driving possibilities of traveling that distance in 24 hours on the highway.

 

[Rafi]

Perhaps Rafi's idea of splitting the Cardinal at Cincinnati and sending a section to St. Louis. I'm not quite sure of the routing there.

Split it at Indianapolis, rather than Cincy. Then you have the direct route from Indy to Chicago, as well as the current CSX (I beleive) route from Indy through Effingham to St. Louis.

I think Indy's a good splitting point too, but there are a few compelling reasons I suggest Cincy as a more practical splitting point:

-Cincy arrival and departure time is in the wee hours of the morning with ample layover time, which is when it seems that Amtrak generally likes to split/join cars to/from trains (see Empire Builder and Texas Eagle/Sunset)

-Key connections with morning trains in Effingham (northbound) and St. Louis (westbound) is tight, and going up to Indy before the split would kill the connection unless Amtrak's willing to push connection departure times in Effingham and St. Louis back a few hours.

On the other hand a good argument for Indy is the fact that Amtrak is already often doing switching operatinons in Indy, since the Cardinal and the Hoosier State trains are often used to haul hospital cars. That is cars that are headed to Beech Grove for repairs and overhauls, as well as picking up cars that are now leaving the hospital. So with switching already happening in Indy, it wouldn't make sense to add still more switching in Cincy.

That's an excellent point, Alan; I hadn't even thought of the switching that happens in Indy, and you're right... it makes the most sense in that respect. Guess they'd have to push back connection times in Effingham and St. Louis, or maybe just head due west to Champaign-Urbana, Bloomington-Normal, and Galesburg for most of those same connections.

-Rafi

 

[saxman]

Ah my favorite once again appears.

Here's one idea. Split the Crescent twice. Once in Charlottesville to Roanoke, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Memphis, Little Rock, DFW/Okla City. And split it into the Crescent Star as once planned in Meridian to go Jackson, Shreveport, DFW.

Another: San Antonio/Houston, DFW, Okla City, Tulsa, Springfield, St Louis, and beyond.

San Antonio/Houston, DFW, Okla City, Witchita, Kan City (CHI connections), Des Moines, Twin Cities.

New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Shreveport to DFW connecting with a train from Houston to go Abilene, Lubbock, Amarillo, Denver/Albuquerque. Connections in ABQ for LAX and connections in Denver for West and Seattle on the Pioneer.

DFW, Midland, El Paso, LAX.

Of course can't forget to bring back, Pioneer, Desert Wind and North Coast Hiawatha which was CHI, Twin Cities, Bismark, Billings, Seattle.

And yes, I've made DFW a major Amtrak rail hub as is Chicago. It would be the southern hub. But all major cities should be small connecting points anyways.

 

[Palmland]

I too would love to see Chicago to Florida service (as well as the Cardinal split). The reality is the best chance might be what was discussed on a thread at the T.O. forum. The City of New Orleans now lays over in NOL for almost 24 hours. With just one more set of equipment, you could run it through to JAX for connections to south Florida.

Routing via the Capitol/Meteor has a Chicago departure at 7:00pm and Jax arrival -via DC - at 9:20am day 2. The City of NO leaves Chicago at 8:00PM arriving NOL at 3:30PM. L&N's old Gulf Wind left NOL at 5:00PM and arrived JAX at 9:00 am. Even if somewhat longer due to today's CSX, this would be a good move. Could be done with minimal additional equipment, provide passengers a one seat ride from Chicago to Florida, and provide connections to the Sunset as well (with maybe some schedule adjustments for the Sunset and Meteor to south FL). JAX also has the facility to turn, sevice, and store the train.

 

[The Metropolitan]

The connection from the CNO does sound doable.

Personally, I have two that I like, both hubbed in St. Louis.

First, as mentioned a few times: St. Louis to Philadelphia, via Effingham, Terre Haute, Indianapolis, Cincinatti, then to Columbus, and through to Pittsburgh, before joining the ex-PRR main towards Philly via Harrisburg.

The other: St. Louis to Jacksonville: across to Carbondale, thence to Nashville and Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, and on to JAX.

First route would take about 25 hours to traverse.

Second route would likely take about the same.

 

[DaveKCMO]

DC to st. louis (or split the cardinal, as others have suggested)

KC to denver (connect to the zephyr)

KC to OKC (via wichita, connect to the flyer)

that would plug quite a few holes in the system. i also like the idea of splitting the cardinal, which would allow me a shorter way to take the train to indianapolis!

 

[Steve4031]

Chicago-Champaign, Decatur, Springfield and then on to St. Louis

This would require work but would give two routes from chicago to St. Louis and provide another rail route connecting Kankakee, and champaigh to Sprngfield.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

NOL-JAX, or Atlanta-JAX would be wonderful, the former because it would repair the gaping hole of Sunset that schizophrenic Amtrak currently says isn't running but hasn't been canceled, while their collective nose keeps getting longer and longer, restoring service to the Florida Panhandle, and the latter because while there isn't currently a passenger route Atlanta-JAX, it would also patch the network gap caused by the absence of the Sunset east of NOL. Sunset pax otherwise stranded in NOL could take Crescent east to Atlanta and then travel the new route down to Jax to connect with Silver Service north to SAV or CHS, or south to ORL, TPA, MIA, etc. (and the reverse would be true - you would once more be able to go MIA, TPA, ORL, OR JAX to Los Angeles by the Sunset again, just not quite as directly (but much better than having to go via Washington-Chicago-Los Angeles, or way up north to catch the north end of the Crescent up there and then all the way across and back down to NOL to catch the Sunset). Of course, a Atlanta-Jax route would still leave the Florida Panhandle, and the state capitol, with no train service unless Sunset starts back up. On the plus side, the Atlanta-Jax route is a nice short one.

 

[George Harris]

Surprised that no one has mentioned

Minneapolis - Des Moines - Kansas City - Dallas - Houston / San Antonio

best with conection with the Southwest Chief at Kansas City, then you can have Chicago to Texas and Twin Cities to California through service by some switching.

Now reschedule toe Eagle to an early am arrival late pm departure at Dallas, have a Houston section that combines at Longview, throw on some through cars to Memphis out of Little Rock, then extend as a day train to Chicago, which is already there north of Carbondale, and you have increased the service possibilities far beyond the increase in train miles. Oh yeah, this train should continue directly west from Dallas to El Paso, maybe even Los Angeles. You could also continue east of Memephis on the old route of the Tennessean, except daytime to east Tennessee, all the way to Washington or New York. This might work to combine with teh Crescent, but maybe not. That combination should occr at Lynchburg, not Charlottesville, by the way.

I think that the Lakeshore Limited route could support about three daily trains spaced out, and you could split at least one at Cleveland to go Columbus-Cincinatti and another to go Indinapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City.

I am not forgetting the need for midwest to Florida already mentioned by others. But as has been noted, there is considerable expense required to make a reasonable and realiable schedule possible. In the 50's early 60's, the City of Miami / South wind left Chicago around 9:00 am arrived Chicago aroudn 6:00 pm and took about 23 hours to Jacksonville. They were around 30 to 32 hours Chicago to Miami.

The problems there:

City of Miami route: no longer possible. several sections abandoned others now branch line status.

South Wind route: different Chicago to Indianapolis. major work needed Indianapolis to Louisville and quite of bit of work also needed Montgomery to Waycross.

Dixie Flagler Route: all still in place, all still main line. Heavily congested with freight. Even double tracking throughout might not be enough to ensure reliability. This was alwasy the tightest schedule of the three due to a very curvey route through Georgia nad parts of Middle Tennessee. No part south of Evansville ever had over a 70 mph limit and most south of Nashville was 60 mph, curves permitting.

George

 

[Rafi]

Can't believe I forgot to mention this one:

Split either the Lakeshore or the Capital at Toledo and provide service to Detroit and possibly Pontiac. Right now, east coasters have to either take a bus connection or travel all of the way over to Chicago only to backtrack along some serious congestion and possible delays just to hit Michigan. The Toledo station, incidentally, has pictures of the lakeshore making this split years ago (not sure if it was pre Amtrak or not), so it's been done before.

-Rafi

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

For my own selfish reasons: have the Empire Builder swing south at Portage, WI, through Madison (with a stop there) and then to Milwaukee. Perhaps a permanent re-route. This assumes that the State of Wisconsin can find the funding or get some Federal funding to fix up the tracks around Madison. Amtrak is reluctant to travel on FRA Class 3 tracks, so the track has to be Class 4, at least.
CHI - FL ? Not unless you want to buy more track capacity around the southern Appalachians. Lots of 50 mph speed restrctions there, as well as congestion/capacity issues on the host railroads. Also, IIRC, the South Wind and Dixie Flagler seemed to be 2 nights and a day betweeen FL and Chicago. That's not that competitive with the current driving possibilities of traveling that distance in 24 hours on the highway.

You will note that George Harris pointed out the long term schedule for the big three--- South WInd, Dixie Flagler and City of Miami--- was about 30 hours.

But I know what you are thinking about--What you are thinking about is that a few years after the South Wind became the Floridiai, huge track problems and lengthy schedules did develop and yes, indeed, in its last years the Floridian was a two nights out trains, and had a tough time following that.

Very diffetent fromthe fast 29-30 hour schedules of 1940 and many years thereafter.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Surprised that no one has mentioned Minneapolis - Des Moines - Kansas City - Dallas - Houston / San Antonio

best with conection with the Southwest Chief at Kansas City, then you can have Chicago to Texas and Twin Cities to California through service by some switching.

Now reschedule toe Eagle to an early am arrival late pm departure at Dallas, have a Houston section that combines at Longview, throw on some through cars to Memphis out of Little Rock, then extend as a day train to Chicago, which is already there north of Carbondale, and you have increased the service possibilities far beyond the increase in train miles. Oh yeah, this train should continue directly west from Dallas to El Paso, maybe even Los Angeles. You could also continue east of Memephis on the old route of the Tennessean, except daytime to east Tennessee, all the way to Washington or New York. This might work to combine with teh Crescent, but maybe not. That combination should occr at Lynchburg, not Charlottesville, by the way.

I think that the Lakeshore Limited route could support about three daily trains spaced out, and you could split at least one at Cleveland to go Columbus-Cincinatti and another to go Indinapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City.

I am not forgetting the need for midwest to Florida already mentioned by others. But as has been noted, there is considerable expense required to make a reasonable and realiable schedule possible. In the 50's early 60's, the City of Miami / South wind left Chicago around 9:00 am arrived Chicago aroudn 6:00 pm and took about 23 hours to Jacksonville. They were around 30 to 32 hours Chicago to Miami.

The problems there:

City of Miami route: no longer possible. several sections abandoned others now branch line status.

South Wind route: different Chicago to Indianapolis. major work needed Indianapolis to Louisville and quite of bit of work also needed Montgomery to Waycross.

Dixie Flagler Route: all still in place, all still main line. Heavily congested with freight. Even double tracking throughout might not be enough to ensure reliability. This was alwasy the tightest schedule of the three due to a very curvey route through Georgia nad parts of Middle Tennessee. No part south of Evansville ever had over a 70 mph limit and most south of Nashville was 60 mph, curves permitting.

George

Mr. Harris, I can usually count on you to revive some memories!!!

Such as, when I lived in Chattanooga and my sister lived in Dallas, we would ride the Southern's day local from CHA to MEM and the overnight MEM-Dallas extension of the Texas Eagle. One time, coming back, I got really adventurous, came back via St. Louis instead of Memphis, and spent a full day in St. Louis. Took the Georgian overnight STL to CHA.First time out of the South . Saw the Colorado Eagle, Penn Texas, Xephyr Rocket, Abe Lincoln, etc.

Your post also reminds me of the through Washington-Shreveport sleeper which ran on Southern's Pelican. It swapped over to Illinois Central at Meridian (I know you know all of this) , That car was a heavyweight. Never rode it but saw it a thousand times backing into Southern's station in Chattanoga("the choo choo") Car in front of it was lightweight red Norfolk & Western NYC to NOL.

 

[Sam Damon]

I think that the Lakeshore Limited route could support about three daily trains spaced out, and you could split at least one at Cleveland to go Columbus-Cincinatti and another to go Indinapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City.
I am not forgetting the need for midwest to Florida already mentioned by others. But as has been noted, there is considerable expense required to make a reasonable and realiable schedule possible. In the 50's early 60's, the City of Miami / South wind left Chicago around 9:00 am arrived Chicago aroudn 6:00 pm and took about 23 hours to Jacksonville. They were around 30 to 32 hours Chicago to Miami.

The problems there:

City of Miami route: no longer possible. several sections abandoned others now branch line status.

South Wind route: different Chicago to Indianapolis. major work needed Indianapolis to Louisville and quite of bit of work also needed Montgomery to Waycross.

Dixie Flagler Route: all still in place, all still main line. Heavily congested with freight. Even double tracking throughout might not be enough to ensure reliability. This was alwasy the tightest schedule of the three due to a very curvey route through Georgia nad parts of Middle Tennessee. No part south of Evansville ever had over a 70 mph limit and most south of Nashville was 60 mph, curves permitting.

Ohio's somewhat of a lost cause at this point. From my travels in the Buckeye State, you have to convince people to get out of their cars, which is not an easy task. Nowhere to switch in Cleveland, these days, either.

As for the South Wind route, "considerable expense" is putting it mildly, but we can dream, can't we? Fallout from the PC bankruptcy continues, three decades after it happened.