Why did Amtrak shelve the P40's?

[Mike S.]

Why did they not continue to use them? Was it more for a "rainny day" kind of thing? The P42 doesn't seem that much better excpet more HP and a few more mph on the top end (but most routes are only going 79 or 90mph, with a few stretches of 100-110mph in New York State).

So what gives?

Mike S.

 

[Trogdor]

Basically, they had a surplus of diesel locomotives. By mothballing that fleet (except for the few that they leased to other railroads, thus generating some extra revenue), they don't have to pay to maintain them since they're not really needed. I'd imagine that, if Amtrak is able to acquire more equipment and expand service, they could bring some of those engines back if necessary.

 

[Mike S.]

Which begs the questions...why did they buy so many? Or, why did they start buying/spec out P42's? Couldn't they have bought rolling stock instead?

I know this is all pointless since were talking about the past. I'm just curious.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Basically, they had a surplus of diesel locomotives. By mothballing that fleet (except for the few that they leased to other railroads, thus generating some extra revenue), they don't have to pay to maintain them since they're not really needed. I'd imagine that, if Amtrak is able to acquire more equipment and expand service, they could bring some of those engines back if necessary.

Just claring up a few mis conceptions:

the P40's are not owned by Amtrak, their leased from GE capital. and while not used lease payments nearly stop.

A P42 and P40 both are rated for 110 mph , the 103 mph rating was dropped years ago.

with just the P42 - F59ph and P8-32's there is a surplus of engines on Amtrak, once the Mail and express were canceled, the P40's were stored for two reasons.

The P40's were due for major overhaul, and since they were leased they impacted the budget the most as far as lack of payment was concerned.

 

[Mike S.]

Dutch,

Thanks for the info. I've got another question then. If the units are leased from GE capital, then how can Amtrak lease some units to NJT for their Atlantic City service? Are they like sub-leasing them to NJT?

Mike S.

 

[Rafi]

Dutch,
Thanks for the info. I've got another question then. If the units are leased from GE capital, then how can Amtrak lease some units to NJT for their Atlantic City service? Are they like sub-leasing them to NJT?

Mike S.

Mike,

NJT doesn't use P40s on the Atlantic City Line; they use GP40s. They ARE, however, using P40s for the new NYC-Atlantic City ACES train, I believe, which while being operated by NJ Transit, is technically a Casino train not serving the Atlantic City line stations (except for the terminus, obviously).

Rafi

 

[PRR 60]

...They ARE, however, using P40s for the new NYC-Atlantic City ACES train, I believe, which while being operated by NJ Transit, is technically a Casino train not serving the Atlantic City line stations (except for the terminus, obviously).
Rafi

The promised NJT Atlantic City Express has not started yet and there is no firm start date.

 

[Mike S.]

Dutch,
Thanks for the info. I've got another question then. If the units are leased from GE capital, then how can Amtrak lease some units to NJT for their Atlantic City service? Are they like sub-leasing them to NJT?

Mike S.

Mike,

NJT doesn't use P40s on the Atlantic City Line; they use GP40s. They ARE, however, using P40s for the new NYC-Atlantic City ACES train, I believe, which while being operated by NJ Transit, is technically a Casino train not serving the Atlantic City line stations (except for the terminus, obviously).

Rafi

Rafi,

Yes, that is the service I was thinking of. I still don't understand how Amtrak can lease P40's to someone when they are in a lease themselves with GE.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Basically, they had a surplus of diesel locomotives. By mothballing that fleet (except for the few that they leased to other railroads, thus generating some extra revenue), they don't have to pay to maintain them since they're not really needed. I'd imagine that, if Amtrak is able to acquire more equipment and expand service, they could bring some of those engines back if necessary.

Remember, that's probably really ``acquire more equipment and more track''. Maybe lengthening the existing trains would end up requiring adding another locomotive in some cases, but beyond that, there are very few places where there's really existing track capacity that could support more frequent service, or new services in places where there is currently no Amtrak service.

 

[AlanB]

First, I've never heard that story before that the P40's were leased by Amtrak from GE. To my knowledge Amtrak owns those units outright.

Second, and this further supports the above statement, NJT is not sub-leasing the P40's. They own them outright. Amtrak sold them to NJT and one cannot sell something that one doesn't own. The State of CT is leasing some P40's from Amtrak, but NJT is not.

 

[Acela150]

Alan your wrong, Amtrak has leased NJT 4 P40's for the casino service. NJT can't buy them due to the fact that the casinos are paying NJT to run these trains. At this rate NJT won't even get a chance to run the P40's from the Meadowlands Facility.

 

[AlanB]

Alan your wrong, Amtrak has leased NJT 4 P40's for the casino service. NJT can't buy them due to the fact that the casinos are paying NJT to run these trains. At this rate NJT won't even get a chance to run the P40's from the Meadowlands Facility.

Please consult this page at OTOL. Additionally not only has NJT purchased them outright, unlike CT, NJT has repainted them in their livery. CT has not done so because they don't own the engines.

And whose paying for the service has nothing to do with whether or not NJT can buy engines. NJT also purchased specialy outfitted double decker cars for the service too.

NJT does own the engines and they are no longer on Amtrak's roster.

 

[AlanB]

Or if you don't wish to take OTOL's word for it, how about NJT's word? Located in this PDF on page six at the top, is the approval from the NJT board to buy 4 locos from Amtrak. Here's the relevant quote:

NJ TRANSIT has agreed to operate a demonstration rail service from New York to Atlantic City, jointly sponsored by Caesar's, Harrahs and The Borgata, as well as the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority, known as CRDA. Operation of the three-year pilot, which will begin by the end of this year, requires four diesel locomotives that are certified to run in the North River Tunnels under the Hudson and in New York Penn Station as well. Amtrak has such locomotives and is willing to sell and overhaul the equipment to NJ TRANSIT'S required standards. Although NJ TRANSIT has no funding obligation for this weekend service, the agency will share in the cost of the locomotives since they will be used in general revenue service by NJ TRANSIT during the week. Authorization is requested to enter into an agreement with Amtrak to purchase four locomotives which Amtrak will overhaul for a total cost not to exceed $9,660,000.

Ps. Click here for a photo of NJT's new #820 in NJT livery.

 

[transit54]

Ps. Click here for a photo of NJT's new #820 in NJT livery.

Wow. I really like the NJ Transit paint scheme on the P40s. So sleek and modern.

 

[VentureForth]

From OTOL:

Note: The units listed on this table are carried on the Amtrak records as "Stored Dead."

29 units are "Stored Dead"? Why not sell 1/2 of them off to start up commuter lines? Maybe they're too expensive to overhaul and sell? Seems like for $2.4 Mil, you can get close to a new MP36PH-3C...

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Believe me GE Capital has all the P40's up for sale, NJT bought 3 and Amtrak made money on overhauling them, I believe at about $75 000 profit per engine.

The 8 units leased to Connecticut Department of Transportation may be bought by CDOT for future Springfield service.

All others are up for sale but nobody has expressed interest.

 

[AlanB]

Believe me GE Capital has all the P40's up for sale, NJT bought 3 and Amtrak made money on overhauling them, I believe at about $75 000 profit per engine.

First, NJT brought 4 of the units, not 3.

Second, if GE Capital had put them up for sale, then NJT would have purchased the units from GE and not Amtrak. There is no mention of GE in the NJT minutes. NJT can't buy something from Amtrak that Amtrak doesn't own. They would have had to request permission to buy the units from GE, if GE owned them.

 

[VentureForth]

Amtrak was approached by the NM Railrunner to buy some P40s, but they couldn't agree on a price. Evidently Amtrak wanted more for a refurbished 20 year old P40 than Motive Power wanted for NEW MP36PH with more passenger-like controls. I don't know what the exact prices were back 4 years ago when this was negotiated, but New Mexico certainly felt that for 4 units, going new was a better choice.

That being said, I know one of the engineers who talks about them being riddled with problems.

 

[Trogdor]

That being said, I know one of the engineers who talks about them being riddled with problems.

"Them" being the P40s or the MP36s?

 

[VentureForth]

That being said, I know one of the engineers who talks about them being riddled with problems.

"Them" being the P40s or the MP36s?

The MP36s. I think it was a matter of 'fine tuning' the diesels. They were smoking pretty bad, and they were often running two locos with two coachs on a relatively flat grade, just for reliability.

 

[Mike S.]

So after all this.......I still don't understand why the p40's were shelved OTHER than maybe becuase they had too many locos. Still don't understand why they would buy so many p42's if we already had enough P40's.

The only thing I can think of with regard to that is that an agency may buy more that what is need when they get funding...kind of insurance for harder times.

 

[AlanB]

So after all this.......I still don't understand why the p40's were shelved OTHER than maybe becuase they had too many locos. Still don't understand why they would buy so many p42's if we already had enough P40's.
The only thing I can think of with regard to that is that an agency may buy more that what is need when they get funding...kind of insurance for harder times.

The P42's were brought in two main orders. The first order, coupled with the P40's, pretty much allowed Amtrak to retire the older locomotives, like the F40's and so on. With the advent of Express Trak freight service, Amtrak needed more power to pull those fully loaded freight cars over the mountains. So a second order was placed to give Amtrak the extra power needed to accomplish that task.

Now Express Trak is dead and Amtrak no longer needs that much power to pull it's trains. So you now have a surplus of locomotives. Which do you retire, the oldest ones or the newest ones?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

From OTOL:

Note: The units listed on this table are carried on the Amtrak records as "Stored Dead."

29 units are "Stored Dead"? Why not sell 1/2 of them off to start up commuter lines? Maybe they're too expensive to overhaul and sell? Seems like for $2.4 Mil, you can get close to a new MP36PH-3C...

The P40s are fairly specialized, being able to fit into the NYP tunnels. They also do not have seperate HEP generation, and are inefficient. They only reason someone other than Amtrak would want them would be to run tight-clearance trains. Further, they are more powerful than is needed for most budding commuter operations.

Amtrak was approached by the NM Railrunner to buy some P40s, but they couldn't agree on a price. Evidently Amtrak wanted more for a refurbished 20 year old P40 than Motive Power wanted for NEW MP36PH with more passenger-like controls. I don't know what the exact prices were back 4 years ago when this was negotiated, but New Mexico certainly felt that for 4 units, going new was a better choice.
That being said, I know one of the engineers who talks about them being riddled with problems.

20 years old? 15.

 

[VentureForth]

From OTOL:

Note: The units listed on this table are carried on the Amtrak records as "Stored Dead."

29 units are "Stored Dead"? Why not sell 1/2 of them off to start up commuter lines? Maybe they're too expensive to overhaul and sell? Seems like for $2.4 Mil, you can get close to a new MP36PH-3C...

The P40s are fairly specialized, being able to fit into the NYP tunnels. They also do not have seperate HEP generation, and are inefficient. They only reason someone other than Amtrak would want them would be to run tight-clearance trains. Further, they are more powerful than is needed for most budding commuter operations.

Amtrak was approached by the NM Railrunner to buy some P40s, but they couldn't agree on a price. Evidently Amtrak wanted more for a refurbished 20 year old P40 than Motive Power wanted for NEW MP36PH with more passenger-like controls. I don't know what the exact prices were back 4 years ago when this was negotiated, but New Mexico certainly felt that for 4 units, going new was a better choice.
That being said, I know one of the engineers who talks about them being riddled with problems.

20 years old? 15.

Everything on Amtrak ages 33% faster.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I dunno, I have a feeling most state run agencies are not all that good at equipment maintnence.