Why Don't ALL Crew Members Have Radios?

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Everydaymatters

Engineer
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
3,406
Location
Just North of Normal, Illinois
A few years ago #5 was hit by a truck and one crew member had to hand his radio to another crew member because he was incapacitated.

I have seen a SA struggle to get a man in a wheel chair off the train in GBB. Somehow he, the daughter of the man, and I managed to get the job done. The SA kept looking toward the head of the train for help, but didn't get any. If he had a radio, the situation would have been smoother less stressful for the man and his daughter.

Wouldn't train travel be safer if all crew members had access to radios?
 
This is one of those few things I will agree with people on. But it's a very rare thing that we need them on the corridor. On long hauls with coach attendants and sleeper attendants I could see it being helpful once in a while. But those radios are quite expensive you know. Maybe even a cheaper solution of just a regular two-way radio would work? The ViaRail attendant on the Mapleleaf had a standard two-way radio to stay in contact with the crew, the last time I rode it within Canada.
 
Its not only price of radio but radio operations as part of railroad operations are restricted (due to FCC regulations) to timetable qualified employees and a LSA is not part if that lot.

even use of radio's by MofE is questionable unless trained as part of their job.
 
Dutch rail nut... Any source for this? While railroads may not want LSA's using radios for various reasons (walking over operational activity) I wasnt aware of any laws. And if it was a rule it would be FRA not FCC I would think.
 
the FCC licencing, only allows those properly trained to use railroad radio's, the FRA has no real say over radio licencing it only has say over rules imposed by each railroad.

here for example the Norac part:

RADIOS, TELEPHONES AND ELECTRONIC DEVICES Radio use must comply with regulations of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). The following rules are set forth to meet these regulations and to provide a safe and efficient operation.

700. Use and Care of Radios Company radios must be used exclusively for railroad operations. The use of radios other than those furnished by the Company for railroad operations is prohibited. Employees using radio equipment must exercise care to prevent damage to or loss of the equipment. Employees assigned a portable radio will be responsible for the proper care and protection of it. No technical adjustments may be made to a radio set, except by those employees specifically authorized.

701. Requirements for Trains Each train must have a working radio on the leading end of the controlling engine when it is dispatched from its initial terminal. Each train must also be equipped with a working redundant means for communicating with the Dispatcher, Operator or Yardmaster. The redundant means shall be a radio on another engine in consist, a portable radio, cellular phone, or other means of wireless two-way communication.

702. Requirements for Track Cars and Roadway Workers Track cars moving between work locations must have a working radio. When more than one track car is moving under the same authority, only one working radio is required. Each employee assigned to provide on-track safety for Roadway Workers and each lone worker must have immediate access to a working radio. When immediate access to a working radio is not available, the employee must be within hearing range of a radio capable of monitoring transmissions from train movements in the vicinity. These requirements do not apply when the work location is physically inaccessible to trains, or has no through traffic or traffic on adjacent tracks during the period when Roadway Workers are present.

703. Communications Device Testing, Failure, Interference Radio and other required communication devices must be tested as soon as practical to ensure that the equipment functions as intended, prior to commencement of the work assignment. The test of a radio shall consist of an exchange of voice transmissions with another radio. The employee receiving the transmission shall advise the employee conducting the test of the clarity of the transmission. Radios and other required communication devices that do not operate properly must be removed from service and the Dispatcher or Yardmaster notified promptly. In event of radio failure en route, the Dispatcher must be notified as soon as practical.
Radio interference from another radio station must also be reported to the Dispatcher or Yardmaster promptly with information as to location, time, and, if possible, the identity of the interfering station. If a radio fails on the controlling engine, the train may continue until the earlier of the next calendar day inspection or the next forward point where the radio can be repaired or replaced.

704. Radio Inspection Employees shall permit inspection of the radio equipment in their charge and all FCC documents pertaining thereto by a duly accredited representative of the FCC at any reasonable time.

705. Radio Transmission and Reception Procedures Before transmitting by radio, the employee must listen to ensure that the channel on which he intends to transmit is not in use. All transmissions must be repeated by the employee receiving them except: 1. Transmissions used in yard switching operations. 2. Those transmissions that do not contain any information, instruction or advice that could affect the safety of a railroad operation. Employees must ensure that radio contact with the proper persons has been made and must not take action until certain that all conversation with them has been heard, understood and acknowledged. Any radio communication that is not fully understood or completed in accordance with the requirements of these rules shall not be acted upon and shall be treated as though not sent. Emergency communications are an exception. An employee receiving a radio call must acknowledge the call immediately unless doing so would interfere with safety.

706. Radio Location and Monitoring When their duties involve the use of radio, employees must have the radio on and tuned to the proper channel at all times. The volume must be adjusted so that all transmissions can be heard. The Timetable designates fixed base stations, wayside stations, periods attended and assigned radio channels.

707. Emergency Communications All employees shall give absolute priority to emergency communications. Except in answering or aiding a station in distress, employees shall refrain from sending any communication until certain that no interference will result to the station in distress.

708. Radio Messages: Content and Code Words The following procedures will govern identification and content of messages when using radio: When originating or initially responding to a radio call, employees must: 1. Identify their employing railroad. 2. Identify their base station, wayside station or yard station by name or other designation of station and location. 3. Identify their mobile radio unit by: a. Schedule number if on a scheduled train. b. Symbol and engine number if on an extra train. If engine belongs to another company, that company’s initials must precede the engine number. c. TC followed by the number of the car if on a track car. d. Other appropriate mobile unit identification. Communication must be as brief as possible and must use these key words: “ROGER” . . . . tosignify that the message was received and understood. When required by Rule 705, “ROGER” also means that you have repeated instructions correctly.
“OVER” . . . . . at theclose of each transmission to which a response is expected.
“OUT” . . . . . . at theclose of each transmission to which a response is not necessary. “OUT” must be preceded by proper identification.
“EMERGENCY” . transmitted three times to obtain use of radio channels for initial report of conditions endangering train movements.

709. Prohibited Transmissions Employees shall not knowingly transmit: 1. Any false distress communication. 2. Any unnecessary, irrelevant, or unidentified communication. 3. Any obscene, indecent, or profane remark.

710. Radio Identification in the Yard When positive identification is achieved in connection with switching, classification, and similar operations wholly within a yard, fixed and mobile units may use short identification after the initial transmission and acknowledgement. Short identification must include engine or unit number, such as “Back up 8271” or “Go ahead 8271.” If an exchange of communications continues without substantial interruption, positive identification must be repeated every 15 minutes.

711. Radio Communication Instead of Hand Signals Employees must take the following actions when radio communication is used instead of hand signals to control a shoving, backing or pushing movement: 1. The employee directing the movement must specify a distance to be traveled. The distance specified must not exceed the distance known to be clear. 2. The movement must stop in one-half the specified distance, unless additional instructions are received. 3. The names of fixed signals affecting the movement must be communicated to the Engineer. If the instructions are not understood or radio contact is not maintained, the movement must be stopped immediately. If the means of communication is changed, no movement may be made until all crew members have been notified.

712. Signal Indications Dispatchers or Operators must not advise the aspect, name, or indication of any fixed signal, and crew members must not request this information. Crew members may use the radio to communicate a fixed signal to other members of the same crew. Except as provided in Rule 241, radio communication may not be used to convey instructions that would have the effect of overriding the indication of a fixed signal. Radio communication may only be used to impose a more restrictive action than the indication of a fixed signal.

713. Radio Communication Concerning Passing Trains A Dispatcher or Operator may accept information regarding the movement of a train from: 1. The Conductor or Engineer of another train. or 2. A Track Car Driver. or 3. Another qualified employee. When necessary to report the passage of a train prior to fouling or occupying a track, employees must identify the passing train by engine number and proper marker display. Dispatchers or Operators must not give permission for a train to foul or occupy a track until this information is received.
 
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What the non-radio staff has available to them is the old school intercom, but that's a relatively tedious and ungainly solution compared to a portable radio transceiver. Sounds like VIA has found a much cheaper and more efficient solution with their unlicensed two way radios.
 
There is a huge pile of issues when you try to use "personal" "unregulated" category radios. First is the difficulty that the conductor is not allowed ANY electronic devise except company equipment for safety reasons involving distractions. Second the low wattage radios are very limited in range, possibly 1 mile line of sight in good weather, not capable of penetrating the steel of two cars if that. Third the possibility of interference from other users. Get next to a warehouse or event and the usage is enormous and the discipline poor.

Having dedicated radios on restricted frequencies requires expensive radios, training, licensing, and the bandwidth is limited and hard to get.

A peer-peer cell phone system, or voip on wifi to cell phones might work... if the wifi works.
 
What the non-radio staff has available to them is the old school intercom, but that's a relatively tedious and ungainly solution compared to a portable radio transceiver. Sounds like VIA has found a much cheaper and more efficient solution with their unlicensed two way radios.
VIA also differs in that there are no conductors. The operating crew is confined to the cab of the locomotive. The on-board crew are service people only and have no operating authority. The radios are used to tell the operating crew that all passengers are on board and the train is ready to leave.
 
Could do the standard we do on trips I work. Virginia Museum of Transportation provides a FRA type radio with its own channel. VMT road and VMT Road Two. All car hosts, and managers are on those two to communicate needs between cars, detraining, and other operational needs. Then NS has their own radios for their crew. I've never had issues when I've needed to find Road Foreman for NS even with him not on my radio. Someone can get him.
 
I can't speak for Canada, but the answer in the United States is quite simple. Employees on the train that use a radio must be rules qualified. Once that happens, they are now connected with the movement of the trains since they have the ability to start or stop a train (whether they are allowed to or not.) Therefor, they would fall under the hours of law and they are now under the same rules as T&E employees, dispatchers, C&S employees and electricians.

They would not be able to exceed 12 hours.

As Devil's Advocate pointed out, there is an intercom system, a PA system and increasingly, an employee text system that is becoming available on the company issued EMD devices.
 
What the non-radio staff has available to them is the old school intercom, but that's a relatively tedious and ungainly solution compared to a portable radio transceiver. Sounds like VIA has found a much cheaper and more efficient solution with their unlicensed two way radios.
VIA also differs in that there are no conductors. The operating crew is confined to the cab of the locomotive. The on-board crew are service people only and have no operating authority. The radios are used to tell the operating crew that all passengers are on board and the train is ready to leave.
That is only one use for it. They have a channel for onboard services and the crew use it to communicate to each other all the time for all sorts of things. It serves the same function as the intercom ("conductor to the IC") on Amtrak.

If, as on VIA, they had a different, dedicated channel for onboard services distinct from the road channel with no access to the road channel, I do not see why they would need to be rules qualified and under HOS.
 
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Loves, Pilot, and Flying J travel stops all use radio to communicate between employees. (GRMS channels I believe.) No need to use a FRA channel. Just communicate between staff reference staff issues. No need to bug a conductor unless it something the staff need there help on, then use Intercoms.

Disagree with the above statement about range and steel issues.

Nice to see Amtrak delevoping text messages capacity between staff on there devises.
 
I can't speak for Canada, but the answer in the United States is quite simple. Employees on the train that use a radio must be rules qualified. Once that happens, they are now connected with the movement of the trains since they have the ability to start or stop a train (whether they are allowed to or not.) Therefor, they would fall under the hours of law and they are now under the same rules as T&E employees, dispatchers, C&S employees and electricians.

They would not be able to exceed 12 hours.

As Devil's Advocate pointed out, there is an intercom system, a PA system and increasingly, an employee text system that is becoming available on the company issued EMD devices.
The EMD device still doesn't help OBS though, which if the whole problem. Unless the one crazy rumor I heard about us getting devices was true? Someone claimed they were looking in to us getting the "old" conductor devices for phone calls, being able to look up the manifest for passenger loads, and for our paperwork. Sounds like a great idea, which is why it won't happen. Besides the cost of it being expensive to give every OBS attendant one when it's not a necessity.
 
We use simple little walkie talkies at Kilauea Lighthouse. The don't require any special licensing and work fine over much more than the length off a train.
 
I can't speak for Canada, but the answer in the United States is quite simple. Employees on the train that use a radio must be rules qualified. Once that happens, they are now connected with the movement of the trains since they have the ability to start or stop a train (whether they are allowed to or not.) Therefor, they would fall under the hours of law and they are now under the same rules as T&E employees, dispatchers, C&S employees and electricians.

They would not be able to exceed 12 hours.

As Devil's Advocate pointed out, there is an intercom system, a PA system and increasingly, an employee text system that is becoming available on the company issued EMD devices.
The EMD device still doesn't help OBS though, which if the whole problem. Unless the one crazy rumor I heard about us getting devices was true? Someone claimed they were looking in to us getting the "old" conductor devices for phone calls, being able to look up the manifest for passenger loads, and for our paperwork. Sounds like a great idea, which is why it won't happen. Besides the cost of it being expensive to give every OBS attendant one when it's not a necessity.

That wasn't a crazy rumor. It may have happened already if not for the regime change. The cost was minimal since the devices already exist and are quite plentiful.
 
For Amtrak to have the OBS crew use two-way radios, they would need several nationwide frequencies so different trains wouldn't confuse each other. Using the low power non licensed two-way radios are range limited. inference susceptible, especially from the engine(s), and common frequencies any one can use, even restaurants.

The FCC sets ALL the rules and regulations for ALL frequency use, individual, commercial, and government. The Operating crew could have their two-way radios set to scan not only the host railroad dispatcher, and their own train operation frequency, but also an OBS frequency. This they could turn on and off with a switch depending on what they were doing. The OBS could not have the Operational frequencies in their two-way units. For Amtrak, to set-up, get licensed, training, maintenance, and monitor proper FCC usage is more involved than the benefits, at least at this time with very tight budgets.

For OBS staff, there is the maintenance while on the road, having a battery charging station somewhere where the batteries are not stolen, but could the sleeper call button alert be transmitted, could the Diner call the SCA when an order is ready.
 
FCC Part 90 says nothing about restricting use of RR-issued radios to only timetable-qualified personnel. That's a decision made by the RR industry. All the FCC requires is that use of RR radios complies with FCC rules. How that happens is, in general, left to the RR industry.
 
The FCC will license Railroad companies to use frequencies designated specifically for railroad use. With the application, a statement of how the frequencies will be used must be included along with an area of operation, coordinates of any base stations or repeaters to be used, how many mobile devices, etc. So if the license was granted with a statement that the frequencies are for Operating personnel, then adding OBS personnel and their use for their operations without modifying the license or requesting frequencies just for such purpose, would violate FCC regulations. Does the FCC monitor? not really, but all major companies comply because the consequence could complicate business operations. Now, if Amtrak wanted to run a short term test before acquiring permanent frequencies, they could work with a two-way radio manufacturer like Motorola to set up a 90 day test and assist with the FCC temporary authorization. The railroads have many frequencies they use but each has a specific use and specific area of operation.
 
FCC Part 90 says nothing about restricting use of RR-issued radios to only timetable-qualified personnel. That's a decision made by the RR industry. All the FCC requires is that use of RR radios complies with FCC rules. How that happens is, in general, left to the RR industry.
The operating frequencies need to be restricted for safety reasons. Only operating personnel on a train should be on them. OBS personnel should not be on them.

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