Woman survives fall from moving Amtrak train

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Doesn't seem to be Amtrak's fault, but they'll probably face legal action.

The femur is part of the leg, but hip probably means pelvis. Broken leg and broken hip are two different things.
 
Doesn't seem to be Amtrak's fault, but they'll probably face legal action.

The femur is part of the leg, but hip probably means pelvis. Broken leg and broken hip are two different things.
No, your typical broken hip is actually a broken femur. I mean, it's entirely possible she broke her lower leg, femur, and pelvis, but it is also possible to refer to the same break as a broken femur, broken hip, or broken leg.
 
Broken hip normally means a fracture in the upper part of the femur between the turn in it and the ball into the socket in the pelvis. Normally reference to a broken femur instead of broken hip means a break in the vertical straight part of the femur.

Given the normal increase in brittleness in bones with age it is surprising that she is does not have many more breaks and injuries.
 
Broken hip normally means a fracture in the upper part of the femur between the turn in it and the ball into the socket in the pelvis. Normally reference to a broken femur instead of broken hip means a break in the vertical straight part of the femur.

Given the normal increase in brittleness in bones with age it is surprising that she is does not have many more breaks and injuries.
We don't actually know what injuries Rose suffered. The journalists give out what little they understand.

I expect that a lot of us worry about our older relatives, and - yeah ourselves - like me - Grandma broke her femur when she was 90 (fact) - and wouldn't use a walker (fact) and lived to be 96 (she knew she needed leg excercise but wouldn't be seen with a walker. She mowed her lawn with manual push-reel mower until she was 94. No way to argue with her.

I'm just hoping I never get so disoriented that I decide to walk off a moving train.

And hoping Rose does OK.

And I hope Amtrak continues to allow old, frail, and sometimes demented people to ride.

This whole thread awakes an adolescent rescue fantasy. I'm walking to the lower-level restroom on a Superliner, and see someone trying to get out the window.

Me - Captain Hero - to the rescue -- "Excuse me maam, but that's not the way to the station" - but in reality - that whole totally unlikely scene -

Sorry - no rescue likely - bad things happen.

Realistically, no way to prevent this sorry loss.
 
I think the bigger issue here is the whole "How much 'bad stuff' can we prevent, how much should 'the government' (or whoever is in charge) work to prevent?" For example, I would hate having to pass a psych eval in order to get on Amtrak, every time I traveled. Or reveal what medications I'm on, in case one can be impairing. (One I am on could be, if I drank alcohol with it. So I choose not to drink alcohol.) Or be forbidden from traveling alone.

One reason I don't fly any more is that I don't like all the security business, the being scanned, taking off shoes, being limited about carrying on liquids...

You can make everything close to 100% "safe," but that safety comes at the price of freedom and perhaps convenience. I'd rather face a certain amount of risk, be aware of that risk, and take responsibility for it, than be so swaddled up by "protection" that I don't have to think, but am subject to various intrusions on my person.

Yes, it's awful when these stories come up, but I don't see how it's Amtrak's "fault," if she opened the window, climbed up on the stepbox, and either fell, jumped, or climbed out. It's one thing to be sure the doors are secure when the train is moving, but it would be another to restrain the passengers so they can't get AT the door.

I also wonder if the families of the people involved in these things suspect something's up with their loved one. (I know from sad experience in some cases the answer is no....had a relative commit suicide that I never would have thought would have done it)
 
From other treads discussing something like this incident, I think I remember that the window open latches are close enough to a normal latch that it would be easy to open one or the door. I know here on MARTA in Atlanta, the door release is in the side, down low and behind a hinged access panel so it's not exactly easy to open them unless you know OW about them specifically since they aren't like any other opening latches that I know of. I wonder if something similar should be used in all future rail cars.
 
From other treads discussing something like this incident, I think I remember that the window open latches are close enough to a normal latch that it would be easy to open one or the door. I know here on MARTA in Atlanta, the door release is in the side, down low and behind a hinged access panel so it's not exactly easy to open them unless you know OW about them specifically since they aren't like any other opening latches that I know of. I wonder if something similar should be used in all future rail cars.
Which is not very useful as an EMERGENCY EXIT, which this is designed to be.

What good is an emergency exit that nobody knows how to open?
 
If the goal of journalism is to communicate useful information to the general public, then that goal was not achieved by any of the three articles, and as a result we still don't know very much with any degree of certainty. It seems like the daughter was given poor and/or conflicting information, so her statements seem to reflect her(understandable) upset emotional state, and maybe not the true state of affairs.

About 10 years ago, I complained to my neurosurgeon that I had pain in my right hip. He ordered spine Xrays, looking for a problem with the sciatic nerve. When the spine Xrays revealed no problems, he concluded that there was no problem at all & assumed I was faking it to get out of going to work. So I went to my primary Dr. (a brilliant man), who ordered hip Xrays. Day after the hip Xrays, I got a call saying that an appointment had already been made for me to see an orthopedic surgeon. The orthopedic guy told me I had cracking & deterioration of the head of the femur, due to arthritis, & needed a total hip replacement. To me, this seemed like something that needed attention; but it didn't seem to be a reason for so much pain. Then he said "Tom, you've been trying to walk on a broken leg." So was it a broken leg, or a broken femur, or a broken hip?

Got the hip replaced, and went back to work. Replaced the other one about 18 months later. One of the best things I've ever done. Crossed the neurosurgeon off the Xmas Card list & never spoke to him again.
 
Broken hip normally means a fracture in the upper part of the femur between the turn in it and the ball into the socket in the pelvis. Normally reference to a broken femur instead of broken hip means a break in the vertical straight part of the femur.

Given the normal increase in brittleness in bones with age it is surprising that she is does not have many more breaks and injuries.
I'll go along with George's version for the usual cases. The ball fits into the socket, forming the "hip" joint. The point being, a "broken leg" is a different injury from a "broken hip." You don't say one to mean the other. As to whether the journalist knows that or not, who knows? I did not assume the three injuries mentioned to be different ways of referring to a single injury. They *sound* like multiple injuries.

I have no idea what her actual injuries are. I hope both she and Amtrak recover well.

Edit: FormerOBS, our posts crossed.

Obviously, YMMV.

Hubby had a "broken hip," which was the term commonly used by the doctors and medical staff at a major trauma center, local hospital, three ICU units, and three in-patient rehab facilities. Not one person ever referred to it as a "broken leg." In my younger days, I also worked several years in a hospital, and I don't recall anyone ever interchangeably using the two terms, although I wasn't focused on those particular injuries.

Therefore, that's just my take on it. I think we've all begun splitting hairs! :) (as often happens here)
 
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@Joe are you implying the MARTA trains here are somehow unsafe then? It's a simple operation to open the door and pull the handle to release the main door, but it's not something you do elsewhere so I see it as unlikely that a confused person would easily open it, but it's simple enough that a person needing to get out can still do so.

@FormerOBS I think the article was implying she broke her neck of femur which most call a broken hip, her shaft of femur, AND that she broke her lower leg, possibly her tibia or fibula or even part of her ankle. I agree that the author could have clarified with just "lower" leg if that was the case, but I clearly understood the intent and separation in the first two and think most people will as well.
 
Yes, it's awful when these stories come up, but I don't see how it's Amtrak's "fault," if she opened the window, climbed up on the stepbox, and either fell, jumped, or climbed out. It's one thing to be sure the doors are secure when the train is moving, but it would be another to restrain the passengers so they can't get AT the door.
There are improvements in the design that can be implemented in future cars to prevent people from opening the side doors when they should not and to alert the crew that the door has been opened. The specifications for the bi-level corridor car being built by Nippon-Sharyo covers sensors to detect when each door is open and speed sensors to keep the doors closed when not at zero speed. There are multiple pages of specs for the side door operations, which are quite extensive and some of which are aimed at preventing the sort of incident that occurred here.

At a minimum, If there was a sensor that displayed to the engineer that a door or the window had been manually opened while the train was moving and that data was recorded, then Amtrak after a review of the log could have told the local police department where to look for the missing passenger.
 
I'll go along with George's version for the usual cases. The ball fits into the socket, forming the "hip" joint. The point being, a "broken leg" is a different injury from a "broken hip." You don't say one to mean the other. As to whether the journalist knows that or not, who knows? I did not assume the three injuries mentioned to be different ways of referring to a single injury. They *sound* like multiple injuries.

I have no idea what her actual injuries are. I hope both she and Amtrak recover well.

Edit: FormerOBS, our posts crossed.

Obviously, YMMV.

Hubby had a "broken hip," which was the term commonly used by the doctors and medical staff at a major trauma center, local hospital, three ICU units, and three in-patient rehab facilities. Not one person ever referred to it as a "broken leg." In my younger days, I also worked several years in a hospital, and I don't recall anyone ever interchangeably using the two terms, although I wasn't focused on those particular injuries.

Therefore, that's just my take on it. I think we've all begun splitting hairs! :) (as often happens here)
For what it's worth, my orthopedic surgeon used the terms interchangeably with my own break.
 
About 10 years ago, I complained to my neurosurgeon that I had pain in my right hip. He ordered spine Xrays, looking for a problem with the sciatic nerve. When the spine Xrays revealed no problems, he concluded that there was no problem at all & assumed I was faking it to get out of going to work. So I went to my primary Dr. (a brilliant man), who ordered hip Xrays. Day after the hip Xrays, I got a call saying that an appointment had already been made for me to see an orthopedic surgeon. The orthopedic guy told me I had cracking & deterioration of the head of the femur, due to arthritis, & needed a total hip replacement. To me, this seemed like something that needed attention; but it didn't seem to be a reason for so much pain. Then he said "Tom, you've been trying to walk on a broken leg." So was it a broken leg, or a broken femur, or a broken hip?

Got the hip replaced, and went back to work. Replaced the other one about 18 months later. One of the best things I've ever done. Crossed the neurosurgeon off the Xmas Card list & never spoke to him again.
The derioration sounds similar to what my wife had 22 years ago. She was having quite a bit of pain in her left hip. X-rays and MRI's were done. She was told she was having femur head necrosis, that is, the head of the femur was dying due to lack of blood flow. The answer was to drill a hole into the head of the femur and that the irritation would result in increased blood flow. She had to be very careful of how much weight she put on it for several months, but it worked and she has had no problems in that area since. This was done in Taipei, Taiwan. I don't think it was or is done in the US.
 
Yes, it's awful when these stories come up, but I don't see how it's Amtrak's "fault," if she opened the window, climbed up on the stepbox, and either fell, jumped, or climbed out. It's one thing to be sure the doors are secure when the train is moving, but it would be another to restrain the passengers so they can't get AT the door.
There are improvements in the design that can be implemented in future cars to prevent people from opening the side doors when they should not and to alert the crew that the door has been opened. The specifications for the bi-level corridor car being built by Nippon-Sharyo covers sensors to detect when each door is open and speed sensors to keep the doors closed when not at zero speed. There are multiple pages of specs for the side door operations, which are quite extensive and some of which are aimed at preventing the sort of incident that occurred here.

At a minimum, If there was a sensor that displayed to the engineer that a door or the window had been manually opened while the train was moving and that data was recorded, then Amtrak after a review of the log could have told the local police department where to look for the missing passenger.
Too much difficulty in being able to open the door or being able to easily figure out how to do it can result is serious evacuation issues in case of addicent. There has to be a middle ground so that you don't cause a new problem with the fix of a problem. You can't fix everything all the time so there has to be a set of priorities developed in the fixes, and these must be based on real events, not published events.
 
One of the comments in one of the articles was Amtrak saying that they we're required to have some sort of alarm or signal that the door was open.

One of the biggest reasons why the Feds have excessive guidelines is the inability for the industry to regulate itself, often hoping that no one will succumb to their ineptness.

Pneumatic doors with signals and emergency "break glass to open door" valves have been standard on transit trains for 50 years. Why didn't Amtrak try pneumatics with the Superliners or Viewliners? Just because they didn't have to is what will open the door (pardon the pun) to liability.
 
Yes, it's awful when these stories come up, but I don't see how it's Amtrak's "fault," if she opened the window, climbed up on the stepbox, and either fell, jumped, or climbed out. It's one thing to be sure the doors are secure when the train is moving, but it would be another to restrain the passengers so they can't get AT the door.
There are improvements in the design that can be implemented in future cars to prevent people from opening the side doors when they should not and to alert the crew that the door has been opened. The specifications for the bi-level corridor car being built by Nippon-Sharyo covers sensors to detect when each door is open and speed sensors to keep the doors closed when not at zero speed. There are multiple pages of specs for the side door operations, which are quite extensive and some of which are aimed at preventing the sort of incident that occurred here.

At a minimum, If there was a sensor that displayed to the engineer that a door or the window had been manually opened while the train was moving and that data was recorded, then Amtrak after a review of the log could have told the local police department where to look for the missing passenger.
The spec is the same as used on the California and Surfliner cars. In the cab of the locomotives and cab cars there is a door light that alerts the engineer that a door is open, and when it's iluminated the locomotive won't load / will drop the load (make tractive power).
 
But in this case it was the window in the door, not the door itself, that was opened. Doubt they want to put an alarm on that.
 
I know a little about hips,,,, as a child I had "slippage of the upper capital femoral" where the femur quits growing at the growth plate. I was fortunate that the lady who live down the alley and baked cookies with my sainted mother was the receptionist for Dr. Harold Sofeild, the man who invented the cure. They put six pins up through the femur into the ball. Six weeks on crutches in 6th grade when they did the left, then six more in 7th for the right ruined my potential NFL career. They told me to prey for advancements in hip replacement because I would need same later in life. Six years ago I had my first, and the witch doctor screwed it up and broke my femur when he hammered the titanium into the femur. I have three cable ties securing the region (the x-rays are a hoot). Although not a doctor, it's been my experience the "hip" refers to the ball and socket which is attached to the femur. The term broken hip is most often used when the femur is broken near the socket. If you have unusual wear in the socket - which is my problem - they still call it a hip replacement not a socket replacement.

In any regards, it is sad for such a tragedy to occur, but it's also part of life. I too am confused on occasion (most recently dealing with a balcony on the 7th deck of a cruise ship . I just sat on the bed and looked out the window because thankfully i realized there was danger on the balcony. I wish Rose a speedy recovery.
 
I can neither confirm nor deny that I may or may not have opened that window on the door once or more than once while the train was in motion and going at a good speed :ph34r:

It is as much fun as it sounds it would be... and no, I have not fallen out of the train. Yet.
I can "one-up" that. As a SA employee on the LD trains as a kid, after dinner and side work was done, I'd sneak into the baggage car, unscrew the light bulbs, so if the conductor opened the door and turned the lights on, he wouldn't see me, slide open the BIG baggage door, throw some soft luggage into a pile to sit on, and watch the scenery pass by, with noise from the SDP 40's, and the smell of brake shoes wafting thru the BIG door. It was the original "Big Screen". Stoopid? You bet. Fun? Yup. Ahh, the ignorance of youth. Not recommended. (And "yes", I remembered to screw the light bulbs back in, sheesh)
 
From everything I have read about this incident .. it does seem that "sundowners" occured in this situation. My husband and I are primary care givers to my F-I-L and suffers with confusion at times (88 yo Father in-law). Laws as it pertains to the elderly is a big ol gray area! We recently had to go to the state gov't public safety division and go through huge hoops just to have the DMV look at the report from his doctor suggesting that his license be suspended due to poor health. We found out by very watchful employees at his assisted living facility that he went behind our backs and renewed his license. We hated to step in, but apparently the DMV has NO rules on age limits of license renewal .. no retesting or anything. Just renew license, no questions asked. Point being is if you have very subborn aging relatives, they will do what they do without thinking of how it could effect others -- you cannot legally stop them if they are somewhat in their right mind! .. He has told us several times that he doesn't care about others he could potential hurt on the road as long as he can drive (he has same opinion on travel also)! :blink: :eek: :help:
 
This is rapidly becoming a real problem in most areas with the aging population!

Since there are 50 States with 50 sets of Laws as pertains to driving and thankfully we still don't require government permission to travel freely inside the country ,( foreign travel is another matter) it will require the children, grandchildren or guardian of Senior citizens ( I am one myself) needing assistance to function in everyday life to go through legal hoops to help our older loved ones that need assistance to safely live (I'm Currently going through the time to stop driving and consider assisted living drama with my 90 year old mother!)
 
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This is rapidly becoming a real problem in most areas with the aging population!

Since there are 50 States with 50 sets of Laws as pertains to driving and thankfully we still don't require government permission to travel freely inside the country ,( foreign travel is another matter) it will require the children, grandchildren or guardian of Senior citizens ( I am one myself) needing assistance to function in everyday life to go through legal hoops to help our older loved ones that need assistance to safely live (I'm Currently going through the time to stop driving and consider assisted living drama with my 90 year old mother!)
My dad would drive even though I don't think he had a valid license. My mom made her own decision to stop driving. Both were in their 80's.
 
This is rapidly becoming a real problem in most areas with the aging population!

Since there are 50 States with 50 sets of Laws as pertains to driving and thankfully we still don't require government permission to travel freely inside the country ,( foreign travel is another matter) it will require the children, grandchildren or guardian of Senior citizens ( I am one myself) needing assistance to function in everyday life to go through legal hoops to help our older loved ones that need assistance to safely live (I'm Currently going through the time to stop driving and consider assisted living drama with my 90 year old mother!)
Good luck on tackling this issue! I am sure there are many in this same boat! F-I-L not "confused" enough to be deemed legally incompentent but can cause real problems if they get behind the wheel! Or travel because they could get confused and cause huge inconvience to others. Doc's have told my F-I-L time and time again .. "yes, you can travel but have to have someone with you and only for short distances at a time".
 
Assisted living facilities should require the incarceration of any living competent progeny. It is a child's job to take care of their parents in old age, no matter how inconvenient. After all, you are just repaying the favor long due.
 
Assisted living facilities should require the incarceration of any living competent progeny. It is a child's job to take care of their parents in old age, no matter how inconvenient. After all, you are just repaying the favor long due.
Sometimes easier said than done Mr. GML. We had both our mothers in our home at the same time when they both needed to be cared for outside their homes. It worked for about three months until one became incorrigible and neither were able to get the care they needed when we both needed to go to work. Sometimes a quality assisted living facility is a better situation than the children trying to take care of parents who no longer can take care of themselves. It was a difficult decision and we each spent everyday at their care facilities out of a guilt feeling that we should not have had. Each person needs to evaluate their individual situation and determine what is best for their mom and/or dad. I know I would not put my mother on an Amtrak train alone, if there were any questions about her ability to manage the trip
 
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