St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[TransitTyrant]

The great hall at union station in Chicago has been closed for events too. Though I usually use the metropolitan lounge, I find this practice offensive. It was such a problem at the curio union station hotel in St Louis that I quit booking there.

CUS does have a decently sized concourse though for passengers to wait. Currently it’s being renovated to update the waiting areas and improve flow.

 

[TransitTyrant]

Me too--I really can't think of what their big issue is. Certainly not a space issue at this time. That said, I wonder if it's possible that Amtrak is scared of Brightline coming up north and trying to run a competing MSP - CHI service at some point?! Maybe? I can't think of any possible concerns beyond that already far-fetched point. I am not saying that would be easy at ALL for Brightline to do, but I could see Ramsey County balking at exclusive rights for Amtrak if there's even been the slightest inkling of Brightline trying to serve this corridor at some point.

Brightline has mentioned Midwest corridors in the past but they want to be the exclusive operator of those trains. Notably they mentioned the Chicago-St Louis route, probably because the public paid for all the upgrades.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.

Yes indeed, that's a good point! I think I was getting overexcited just at the idea of needing to expand 2 tracks can do quite a lot! I'm on the Silver Star right now headed to NYP and just passed through Petersburg, VA, which I think handles about 12 trains/day and is obviously a small station with (didn't look in detail) just the one track actually used to board/alight passengers.

 

[Amtrak25]

Doesn't SPUD also have to function as a yard ? The Boeralis is going to spend the night there while #7 and #8 roll through. Where would they put other trains ? Even Pittsburgh has a one or two other stub tracks besides the one the Pennsylvanian uses.

 

[jis]

Doesn't SPUD also have to function as a yard ? The Boeralis is going to spend the night there while #7 and #8 roll through. Where would they put other trains ? Even Pittsburgh has a one or two other stub tracks besides the one the Pennsylvanian uses.

Luckily there is ample space for building multiple storage tracks, if needed and also for building another platform with two platform tracks should it become necessary.

 

[WWW]

At SPUD there is the very rare possibility of both Amtrak #7 (late night 11pm) and #8 (early morning 8-9 am)
each being delayed to have both trains occupying the 2 available thru tracks causing any third train from using
these 2 tracks. Extremely very rare - not that it has not happened before but what do the airlines do when a
gate is not available "They Wait!".
There is more of a problem with freight traffic on that Division Street WYE to contend with !!!

There is one very short siding that could be extended (the 261 North Pole Express) suitable for probably a
locomotive baggage car 3 coaches and a push-pull locomotive
As for other available storage parking one prime yard would be the (UP) former coal car siding under the High Bridge (Smith Avenue) about two miles away.
Another would be further away - the CP Pigs Eye yard
Reference Google Map LINK: Zooom in and out as necessary - panning right and left to see the rail trackage:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473557,-93.0856691,1961m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

SPUD centered in image - - - look for the little white bus on a blue background image.

People people time to stop kicking the can down the tracks and kick this into high gear !
This is not a model railroad we are playing with here - it is real time real transportation issue !

 

[west point]

Per Wiki once had 9 platforms and 18 passenger tracks. Certainly can expand from the present 2 tracks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Paul_Union_Depot

 

[Harmon Shay]

Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.

Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?

 

[jis]

Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?

I am not really upto speed on the details of the plans in the Twin Cities area. I am sure there are others here who can shed more knowledgeable light on this matter,

 

[Anderson]

Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.

Broadly speaking, once you get to two tracks, as long as you aren't in a stub-end situation you've got a lot of capacity. Stub end stations run into trouble since terminating trains need to go somewhere, so you can get a lot of extra moves if you're not servicing trains on the platform (witness GCT's constraints vs Penn, or even the relative throughput upstairs vs downstairs at Washington Union). That being said, a third/fourth track might become desirable if you're dealing with regular delays or slow boarding/heavy traffic loads.

[As an example, I'd be wary of Brightline Orlando running that many trains in one direction on just two tracks...but that's more because the escalators would easily get overwhelmed. Even Washington Union could get a bit "squeezed" with too many trains downstairs, but that's more because of platform/escalator capacity than anything.]

 

[WWW]

Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?

I too had heard a rumor as such about returning restoring the Midway depot location but as I had noted before -

Amtrak to move its operation to the Midway depot location.
This location has been brought up time and time again to be used again as a joint operation between
the Twin Cities replacing SPUD & Target Field creating one uniform railroad transportation center.
Problem here location location location out in between the cities in a Commercial Rail freight yard.
Zoom map link out and follow the tracks to see this or use this link:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9629944,-93.1845059,424m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

That dark rectangular shape building in the center of the link is the old Midway depot.

No hotels - no night entertainment - limited restaurants - a good block walk to the existing
Green Line lite rail (in the winter or weather related issues who wants to put up with that !)

YES would be a good location for train maintenance (by contract with Commercial Rail which
has its own maintenance facility and yard).

But any further development of additional tracks and platforms in a very confined space is
a significant issue for multiple trains (note the north bound exit from the depot runs thru
a yard with some 33 tracks and the south bound all exiting onto 1 single track to merge
with the former Short Line route to SPUD - yet Amtrak trains 7 & 8 transit thru this daily
with speed reduction transferring off the BNSF tracks to Commercial Rail and onto CP.
The tracks are not as they were back in the 30s 40s 50s.

Side note the Commercial Rail yard is where the Private rail cars are dis/connected to the
Amtrak 7 & 8 by a Commercial Rail crew - usually not much of a delay issue.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?

In brief, yes, this was maybe even a little more than a rumor--it was something discussed and mentioned by stakeholders involved in the project. Here's my guess: Now that MN has appropriated more $ for the TCMC and for passenger rail in general, if the TCMC is successful I could see the old Midway station become a maintenance base in a few years. Unclear to me if new money would need to be appropriated for this but I think so. I wonder if this could become a maintenance base for the (knock on wood) future Northern Lights Express to Duluth as well? But that's a separate question.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Since I don't know much about Twin Cities transportation geography, I have a couple of questions. Would it be worth reopening Midway station for its good parking and freeway access and reducing St. Paul Union, with what I understand is its not-so-great parking and freeway access, to some sort of caretaker status? Would reopening Midway, admittedly still in St. Paul, help the fact that Minneapolis no longer has an Amtrak station? I've also heard of the possibility of having Amtrak make an arrangement with North Star to use its Fridley station as an Amtrak stop.

 

[Silophant]

Union Depot has more parking and is closer to an I-94 interchange than Midway, in addition to having public transit connections, so, no.

 

[John Bredin]

With all due respect, Amtrak left Midway for SPUD because a city-center legacy station was considered an upgrade.

Unlike some old stations that survive as mostly not a train station, it still has the concourse leading out to the platforms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the aerial view on Google Streetview seems like there's enough room between the active platform at the far end of the concourse and the unused platform next to the bus area to rebuild two platforms and restore tracks to the unused platform.

Streetview from the bus area seems to show the area under the concourse is clear to the other side, and streetview from E. 2nd Street shows the concrete viaduct underlying the tracks is well-maintained and intact up to the edge of 2nd St.

In short, unless there's some factor I'm not seeing on Google Streetview, I see no reason SPUD couldn't have four platforms and eight tracks, seven of them being through tracks, with no more than the construction of the platforms and relaying of tracks.

 

[WWW]

With all due respect, Amtrak left Midway for SPUD because a city-center legacy station was considered an upgrade.

Unlike some old stations that survive as mostly not a train station, it still has the concourse leading out to the platforms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the aerial view on Google Streetview seems like there's enough room between the active platform at the far end of the concourse and the unused platform next to the bus area to rebuild two platforms and restore tracks to the unused platform.

Streetview from the bus area seems to show the area under the concourse is clear to the other side, and streetview from E. 2nd Street shows the concrete viaduct underlying the tracks is well-maintained and intact up to the edge of 2nd St.

In short, unless there's some factor I'm not seeing on Google Streetview, I see no reason SPUD couldn't have four platforms and eight tracks, seven of them being through tracks, with no more than the construction of the platforms and relaying of tracks.

Yes all of this is true - except for only one track (the CP/Milwaukee Short Line) going up the grade to the Commercial Rail Transfer yard to the junction with the BNSF.
The other route is a back-ended merge with the Division St WYE traffic for transit thru the Midway subdivisions
of both the CP BNSF & others.

AND the BIGGEST problem that Division Street WYE with some 60 trains transiting thru St. Paul.
Insurmountable problem ? - well it will be a nightmare but it could be solved with elevated tracks to bypass this
mess - one solution - surely the Freight traffic could yield to small 5 car unit passenger trains of short time frequency unlike the freights with 115+ cars and 6 locomotives - yes observed UP trains crossing the Mississippi river at/under the Robert Street bridge interrupting access to SPUD !

But how many of these passenger trains are we planning on for the present - surely 3 or 4 should not be an
inconvenience to the freights ?

 

[Harmon Shay]

Thanks to all for your comments. I've learned quite a bit.

 

[Silophant]

Ramsey County approved the Union Depot operating agreement today. Watching the video, one of the commissioners mentioned that the state agreement is hopefully still only a couple weeks out, and that this approval was one of the things they're waiting on.

 

[NorthShore]

Boreas was the god of the north wind. It's about time he got a train named after him. His brother Zephyrus got much luckier, in that respect. And it's been almost 100 years now since you could ride a train over Boreas Pass in Colorado, though you can still drive the old roadbed.

And, surely, the new train name is to honor the ceremonial king of St. Paul's annual Winter carnival, yes?

https://wintercarnival.com/legend/king-boreas/

 

[NorthShore]

Commissioner Martinson said a number of things to the effect of "There are other trains that do come in or want to come in with special events and otherwise [Metro Transit once ran a Northstar commuter rail holiday train to SPUD, plus there's Train Days each May, not anything else really], and we don't want to keep other 'trains' [read: operators] from using SPUD in the future."

Minneapolis based Friends of 261 has used SPUD at times in the past, particularly for their holiday train, which is the organization's biggest fundraising endeavor, annually. Though, I believe their most recent events may have originated in Minneapolis.

And PV owners have, historically, used St. Paul as a base of operations for adding/dropping cars.

 

[OmahaRoad]

And, surely, the new train name is to honor the ceremonial king of St. Paul's annual Winter carnival, yes?

https://wintercarnival.com/legend/king-boreas/

Ha, that would make sense! I don't know if you saw the subsequent posts in this thread, but the Borealis name was also retracted. It's back to TCMC until the final, actual announcement is made.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Ramsey County approved the Union Depot operating agreement today. Watching the video, one of the commissioners mentioned that the state agreement is hopefully still only a couple weeks out, and that this approval was one of the things they're waiting on.

Thank you very much for sharing this! It's really great news, especially because at the Great River Rail Committee's (GRRC) March meeting, Commissioner Martinson thought that this agreement might not be ready until their next RCRRA meeting in early April. It is heartening to see that they're pushing to get this started ASAP.

I watched the video and the commissioners reiterated that the start of service would be about 6-8 weeks after the state agreements are signed. This lines up with the need to take a couple weeks (hopefully less) to then wrap up other loose ends and make the official start of service announcement, which MnDOT has previously said would come at least a month before the start of service.

I know that GRRC stakeholders were concerned and alarmed about "only" having a month to promote the new service, so it is possible they'll try to give them as much time to promote as is feasible, within reason (stakeholders wanted at least 6 weeks to promote). I found their concerns to be pretty "small world" & Minnesota-centric, since they seemed to think that ridership would suffer with only a month to promote, disregarding the pent-up demand for this service & that different levels of government in three different states will be promoting the TCMC!

I'm not worried about ridership unless the TCMC ends up having OTP issues, which it shouldn't. Even if the TCMC ends up incurring the same delay the Builder does sometimes when coming into St. Paul (waiting for freight traffic to clear close to SPUD), those delays would probably be in the 5-20 min range. And of course, headed eastbound will be a night-and-day difference (compared to the Builder) with the TCMC originating in St. Paul.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.

Here in Washington state, the new Tacoma Sounder-Amtrak facility has only two tracks and serves I think 38 trains-a-day, and that's without making a lot of use of the second track. They don't like to have Amtrak trains meet there because two trains at one time makes it nearly impossible for the Amtrak station agents.

 

[west point]

Didn't Amtrak petition to close a street that goes thru the middle of the repair facility?

 

[WWW]

Here in Washington state, the new Tacoma Sounder-Amtrak facility has only two tracks and serves I think 38 trains-a-day, and that's without making a lot of use of the second track. They don't like to have Amtrak trains meet there because two trains at one time makes it nearly impossible for the Amtrak station agents.

SPUD has two thru tracks serviced by only one platform -
a disaster of sorts for handling two trains in such tight space !
That tight space is also amplified by the single access to that one platform boarding through the Great Hall - - -
Stairs - Escalators - and one Elevator for those with mobility issues.
While it is extremely rare for #7 & #8 to be at SPUD simultaneously having a TCMC 2nd train or other
Duluth? St. Cloud? train operation could be dicey if another platform section is not built.
If there is no distinct separation - the possibility of getting on the wrong train could be devastating !

SPUD will definitely need upgrading in both the waiting area of the Great Hall and the track platforms !