Teenager dies playing chicken with Capitol Corridor train.

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Food for Thought

If ( as several posters have stated ) the 15 year old brain is not fully developed for making these types of judgements regarding danger, how come we don't see thousands of kids getting killed each day from lack of judgement ?

The poster that commented that it was possible that the kid was egged on by a dare actually makes the most sense to me. Kids at 15 have the sense not to do something so stupid for the most part but once peer pressure kicks in, all sense goes out the window. I'm saying this as a retired high school band director

I assume that most of us have watched shows like "Top 20 worst daredevils" ( or something like that ) and said to ourselves " who in their right mind......" I guess the answer is nobody in their right mind without influence from others ?.

What a sad incident for everyone involved.
 
Food for Thought
If ( as several posters have stated ) the 15 year old brain is not fully developed for making these types of judgements regarding danger, how come we don't see thousands of kids getting killed each day from lack of judgement ?

The poster that commented that it was possible that the kid was egged on by a dare actually makes the most sense to me. Kids at 15 have the sense not to do something so stupid for the most part but once peer pressure kicks in, all sense goes out the window. I'm saying this as a retired high school band director

I assume that most of us have watched shows like "Top 20 worst daredevils" ( or something like that ) and said to ourselves " who in their right mind......" I guess the answer is nobody in their right mind without influence from others ?.

What a sad incident for everyone involved.
A quick and simple search found this from a neuroscientist says that unlike you implication that the brain is not immature at 15, it really is, until about age 25.
 
Food for Thought
If ( as several posters have stated ) the 15 year old brain is not fully developed for making these types of judgements regarding danger, how come we don't see thousands of kids getting killed each day from lack of judgement ?

The poster that commented that it was possible that the kid was egged on by a dare actually makes the most sense to me. Kids at 15 have the sense not to do something so stupid for the most part but once peer pressure kicks in, all sense goes out the window. I'm saying this as a retired high school band director

I assume that most of us have watched shows like "Top 20 worst daredevils" ( or something like that ) and said to ourselves " who in their right mind......" I guess the answer is nobody in their right mind without influence from others ?.

What a sad incident for everyone involved.
A quick and simple search found this from a neuroscientist says that unlike you implication that the brain is not immature at 15, it really is, until about age 25.
I don't contest that the brain isn't fully developed at 15, however, if the judgement section is so immature, why don't we see thousands of deaths by teenagers each day ? I would venture to GUESS that there are over a million teenagers in the US but we have ( I feel) very few deaths of teens by bad judgement.

I don't have answers, I'm just trying to figure out whats missing in the equation.
 
This was an interesting passage:

AAMODT: Well, actually, one of the side effects of these changes in the reward system is that adolescents and young adults become much more sensitive to peer pressure than they were earlier or will be as adults.

Which is the point I was trying to make but I guess I didn't do it well. I believe there was only one poster that brought this up, the rest were just saying the kids brain was not fully developed. I believe the above quote from the article ties this together. Even with brains not fully developed, most 15 year olds have enough sense not to do something this stupid on their own. However, once you add the peer pressure of beinng egged on by friends, all common sense goes out the window.

Thanks for the link, the article is very interesting.
 
Food for Thought
If ( as several posters have stated ) the 15 year old brain is not fully developed for making these types of judgements regarding danger, how come we don't see thousands of kids getting killed each day from lack of judgement ?

The poster that commented that it was possible that the kid was egged on by a dare actually makes the most sense to me. Kids at 15 have the sense not to do something so stupid for the most part but once peer pressure kicks in, all sense goes out the window. I'm saying this as a retired high school band director

I assume that most of us have watched shows like "Top 20 worst daredevils" ( or something like that ) and said to ourselves " who in their right mind......" I guess the answer is nobody in their right mind without influence from others ?.

What a sad incident for everyone involved.
A quick and simple search found this from a neuroscientist says that unlike you implication that the brain is not immature at 15, it really is, until about age 25.
I don't contest that the brain isn't fully developed at 15, however, if the judgement section is so immature, why don't we see thousands of deaths by teenagers each day ? I would venture to GUESS that there are over a million teenagers in the US but we have ( I feel) very few deaths of teens by bad judgement.

I don't have answers, I'm just trying to figure out whats missing in the equation.
Over 16,000 12-19 year old's die every year and about half of unintentional injury or about 8,000 a year or about 23 a day. This three to four times the rate for adults. This bespeaks and reflects what has been learned about brain growth and maturity.
 
Over 16,000 12-19 year old's die every year and about half of unintentional injury or about 8,000 a year or about 23 a day. This three to four times the rate for adults. This bespeaks and reflects what has been learned about brain growth and maturity.
I think that Mike's point is that while that rate is twice adults it's still amazingly small, since there are roughly 32 million* people in that age cohort. We're talking about .05% of the population here, so clearly the other 99.95% isn't just getting by on luck.

*According to the US census bureau, in 2012 there were 22 million people in the 15-19 age group and 20 million in the 10-14 age group. Assuming a roughly equal distribution, that's 10 million 12-14 plus the 22 million 15-19.
 
Maybe if the railroads started charging the estate/parents of the deceased for the cleanup and repair costs, incidents like this would go down. Cold? Oh yes. But maybe a few high-profile cases of parents burying their kids, then getting hit with a couple-thousand dollar cleanup and repair bill might just prevent a few cases.

There is no need to bill the parents directly. I believe, in some (if not all) states, the parents' homeowners insurance has a liability clause for any damage their children cause. There is a dollar limit, and it varies by state. In Arizona, for example, it's $10,000.

http://www.enotes.com/family-law-reference/parent-liability-child-s-act
 
It could also be that those who expressed sympathy to the crew did so because they figure everyone is already feeling sympathy for the kid, his family & friends. I'm sure a lot of people don't even think about the crew & passengers on the train involved, except rail fans.
Ding ding ding. Exactly. I don't get why this is being debated.
 
Over 16,000 12-19 year old's die every year and about half of unintentional injury or about 8,000 a year or about 23 a day. This three to four times the rate for adults. This bespeaks and reflects what has been learned about brain growth and maturity.
I think that Mike's point is that while that rate is twice adults it's still amazingly small, since there are roughly 32 million* people in that age cohort. We're talking about .05% of the population here, so clearly the other 99.95% isn't just getting by on luck.

*According to the US census bureau, in 2012 there were 22 million people in the 15-19 age group and 20 million in the 10-14 age group. Assuming a roughly equal distribution, that's 10 million 12-14 plus the 22 million 15-19.
Many of the stupidities do not result in death, just injuries (probably several to many times the death rate). But 3-4 times is still a lot and many, many more just miss, but are very stupid anyway. Plus their reflexes and strength at that age my save a significant fraction that otherwise would be injurious No mysteries here..
 
Over 16,000 12-19 year old's die every year and about half of unintentional injury or about 8,000 a year or about 23 a day. This three to four times the rate for adults. This bespeaks and reflects what has been learned about brain growth and maturity.
I think that Mike's point is that while that rate is twice adults it's still amazingly small, since there are roughly 32 million* people in that age cohort. We're talking about .05% of the population here, so clearly the other 99.95% isn't just getting by on luck.

*According to the US census bureau, in 2012 there were 22 million people in the 15-19 age group and 20 million in the 10-14 age group. Assuming a roughly equal distribution, that's 10 million 12-14 plus the 22 million 15-19.
Thanks. Those numbers make my head swim. I had no idea there were 42 million "teenagers" in the US.

I guess alot has to do with where you live / what you gre up around etc. I grew up less than 10 blocks from the Mississippi river and played on the batture almost every summer growing up. There were always ( it seemed ) kids getting killed in and around the river. Some drowned, some got killed on moterbike accidents and I remember one idiot that dove head first off a ship that was washed up on the batture after Hurricane Betsy and died because it was only 3' of water and then soft riversand.

Look both ways before you cross the street

Stop, look and listen at RR crossings

Stay off the tracks

Don't play with matches

These were pounded into our heads to try and fight our own teenage stupidity I guess.

When about 10, I was working on a boat model that had one of the silver battery operated motors to go in it. My common sense was on vacation when I wondered ....well, if I stick the green wire in one side of the outlet and the red one in the other, this motor will go REAL fast. After the bright flash and explosion my father ran upstairs to see what had happened and said " What the **** are you doing, I thought you had more sense than that, you'll grow up to be an idiot.......no dad, I'm an idiot already.
 
It seems there is a statistically significant difference in the rate of unintentional injury deaths for teenagers vs. other age groups. That indicates something to look into. It does not mean that all teenagers are going to kill themselves doing something stupid, or even a majority. It just means they are more likely to do so. Just like smoking makes you more likely to get lung cancer, but still the vast majority of smokers won't get lung cancer*. Still, it happens, and you can reasonably attribute the effect to the cause.

But the lack of large numbers of teenagers (vs. the teenage population as a whole) dying of "stupidity" does not, in and of itself, mean that there isn't something that can be attributed to the development of the human brain. Things affect different people differently. Some kids are more mature at 14 or 15 than others are at 40 (even on this forum, I'd say that one of our youngest regular members is far more mature than many of the elder members here). Some are more impacted by certain developments in their brain than others are. It's all a delicate balance of which part develops and matures faster than which other part of their brain, and combine that with their specific situation (e.g. what friends the kid happens to have, what their maturity level happens to be, where they happen to live, etc.), and you get the perfect storm of events that add up to something like this.

If the kid was a bit wiser, he probably wouldn't have done it. If at least one of his friends was wiser, it probably wouldn't have happened. If they didn't live near the railroad tracks, it probably wouldn't have happened.

But, sometimes, the conditions align just right (or wrong, if you will) and they result in tragedy. It's, fortunately, rare enough for those wrong conditions to all align in exactly the wrong way and so the total percentage of kids who die doing stupid things is low, even though they are more likely to be inclined to do such a stupid thing than someone older.

That said, I really believe another problem (which may not necessarily have happened in this case, which was just a matter of kids being stupid) is that the population in general is not educated on the dangers of railroad tracks. I know that I, personally, never received any training when I was young (and I went to school in an area with active railroads; in fact a year or two a go, a boy that went to my old middle school was hit and killed by a train while walking on the tracks on his way to school). People don't realize that railroad tracks are private property, and that you shouldn't walk/play on them for any reason. One time I was near the tracks when the Empire Builder was due to go through in a few minutes, and I saw a man with his young son (probably 2 or 3 years old) letting his kid play on the tracks. I let the man know he shouldn't be there and a train was going to be flying through in a couple of minutes, and the guy was offended (to put it lightly), asking if I was "the railroad."

If people grow up not having an appreciation for what trains can and can't do, based on simple laws of physics, it's no wonder that people get hit and killed by trains. Operation Lifesaver is a great program, but it's really not enough. Kids are taught, both in home and at school, to be careful of strangers, to be careful with fire, to be careful when crossing the street, etc. But very few are taught to be careful around railroad tracks. It's not surprising, then, when things like this happen. One might think it should be obvious, but we must also realize that what's plainly obvious to one is a completely unheard of thing to another. It's just a matter of what you're taught. Otherwise, you never even have a reason to think about something.

Maybe what's needed is for the railroad industry to fund an Operation Lifesaver course, perhaps one hour per school year, for every class in the country (a video and pamphlet would probably be fine for most cases, since having instructor visit every school would be impractical). Just bringing it to people's attention once might be enough to save a percentage of those lives lost.

*Based on a quick Google search. I'm not going to vouch for the accuracy of the data, even though they looked as if they were presented legitimately.
 
I should have been dead so many times over.

Back in the day, there were many of us who used to play or take walks along the tracks. As a college student I remember one of our group who used to like to taunt others and say things like "Look out a train is coming!" just for effect. I was walking the tracks with him one afternoon when he said this, quite a few times. Mind you, there was not much train activity back then. Another student I knew who took Amtrak back and forth from Detroit to see his family, would ask if the train was on time and the answer came back, "It's today, isn't it?" So the thought of real live trains on those tracks was very distant from our young minds. We didn't know anything about stuff that people on this forum take for granted and assume that everyone else is stupid, uninformed or crying to be eliminated by Darwin for not knowing, so we walked along on the perfect fall day like so many other fall days on campus, following the tracks, completely and blissfully unaware of the real danger. My friend kept kidding that a train was coming. I ignored him until something in his tone changed, I looked at him and his face was transparent in shock as he gasped, "I'm not joking I'm serious!" and he grabbed my arm. I followed his gaze to see a very real light from a very real engine. We scampered off the tracks with a sense of haste and tragedy and huddled together in shock, a few seconds later as the train roared past. No doubt there are people here who think that if we had not done this in time, that the crew woud have bourne the greater tragedy and that snuffing out our lives would just have been natural Darwinism. I'm so sorry to disappoint those who think this way, but my parents are pretty happy to have me around and the grandchildren too. Speaking of MI kids, I should have been dead twice over and neither one of them been born, but for the miracle of modern medicine and technology. Civilization is not Darwinism, so I try not to judge people who make mistakes that hurt them. "There but for the grace of God, go I." Whether you believe in God or not is not the point.
 
I remember as a kid going to school near some active railroad tracks. It wasn't really much - just a Santa Fe spur line that got freight traffic maybe twice a day. However, we were told to stay off the tracks and be careful. I also went to another school near a golf course and were told to stay off of it because it was private property and because there was a risk of being struck by golf balls. For the most part there was no shortcut through the golf course unless someone lived in the development inside. There was no net to the street and I'm think occasionally some wayward ball ended up breaking a car window. Legally the person who hits a ball is responsible for any damage it causes.
 
Michigan Mom:

Nobody is saying this isn't tragic or that he deserved to die. Nobody is minimizing the impact to family, friends, etc. You took a simple comment about "condolences to the crew" and blasted it so far out of proportion that we've been stuck in this ridiculous debate for four pages now. God forbid we express sympathy for the crew without listing every single person in that boy's family and all of his friends as well. I didn't realize there was a proper way to express sympathy.

I'm glad you didn't get hit by that train. Honestly. That could have ended badly, and you learned your lesson and were able to teach your children to stay off the tracks. I'm glad your children won't play on the tracks, thanks to your scary story. (My dad had a similar story, so we were always very careful when walking near train tracks.)
 
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If this is the case then WHY THE HECK are we letting people Under 18 Drive at all ! ......
IMO No one should drive a Real car till 21 .... Boom there I said it.....
Some states have changed their licensing for this very reason. Michigan has a "graduated driver's license" program that restricts teen driving and then gives them more and more flexibility as they age and prove themselves.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1627_60169_60175---,00.html

When I first started driving, we got a permit at age 15 and then a license at age 16. There weren't any restrictions, but it was a probationary license - after a year (IIRC) without incidents, you were taken off probation.

It's wildly different now. There was talk of increasing it to 18, but they realized having parental supervision and gradually-increased permissions during those first two years is more helpful than giving someone a license at 18 and letting them go willy-nilly, especially since some kids start college when they're 17 and don't live anywhere near their parents.
 
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If this is the case then WHY THE HECK are we letting people Under 18 Drive at all ! ......
IMO No one should drive a Real car till 21 .... Boom there I said it.....
Some states have changed their licensing for this very reason. Michigan has a "graduated driver's license" program that restricts teen driving and then gives them more and more flexibility as they age and prove themselves.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1627_60169_60175---,00.html

When I first started driving, we got a permit at age 15 and then a license at age 16. There weren't any restrictions, but it was a probationary license - after a year (IIRC) without incidents, you were taken off probation.

It's wildly different now. There was talk of increasing it to 18, but they realized having parental supervision and gradually-increased permissions during those first two years is more helpful than giving someone a license at 18 and letting them go willy-nilly, especially since some kids start college when they're 17 and don't live anywhere near their parents.
Plus parents are tired of being taxi drivers! :D
 
When I was a boy I loved trains and spent many hours exploring mainlines, rail yards, and related areas. It was both easy and welcome. I never faced any serious harm because I wasn't stupid enough to tempt fate with matters of life and death. Unfortunately boys today are not be able to do any of the exploring I once did. Why? Because of all the people who have risked life and limb in the intervening years. Operation Lifesaver can't save people too bored with life to protect themselves, but it can make it a hell of a lot harder for the rest of us to go exploring the world around us without getting into lots of trouble. The world doesn't need more obstructions and penalties for being inquisitive; it needs fewer protections for being blatantly ignorant.
 
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If this is the case then WHY THE HECK are we letting people Under 18 Drive at all ! ......
IMO No one should drive a Real car till 21 .... Boom there I said it.....
Some states have changed their licensing for this very reason. Michigan has a "graduated driver's license" program that restricts teen driving and then gives them more and more flexibility as they age and prove themselves.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1627_60169_60175---,00.html

When I first started driving, we got a permit at age 15 and then a license at age 16. There weren't any restrictions, but it was a probationary license - after a year (IIRC) without incidents, you were taken off probation.

It's wildly different now. There was talk of increasing it to 18, but they realized having parental supervision and gradually-increased permissions during those first two years is more helpful than giving someone a license at 18 and letting them go willy-nilly, especially since some kids start college when they're 17 and don't live anywhere near their parents.
Plus parents are tired of being taxi drivers! :D
This is probably the biggest practical stumbling block. In areas where you've got viable public transit, raising the driving age might work. Might. But I'll use myself as an example here:

When I was 16 my mother passed away, my father being previously deceased. I moved in with my (non-driving) grandmother about 20 miles away. For a week during the previous winter, I had lived with her when my mother was in the hospital; being 15 at the time, I couldn't drive myself, which meant getting someone else to drive (though I had my permit, I didn't ask to drive...I was working on a paper that week, visiting my mother in the hospital, and was generally not in good shape to do a lot of driving due to the piled-up circumstances). At other times, if I couldn't get my mother into the car, I couldn't drive to school when I had my permit (and this was, on one or two occasions, at issue IIRC).

Had I been unable to drive to school, I'd either:

(1) Have had to change schools and probably lost touch with a lot of my friends at a very bad time, had to drop almost all my existing social activities, etc. OR

(2) Have had to live with my grandfather, at least during the week. As it was, we tried this...it was a clunky mess of an operation, and while I lived in my old house with him during the week, it was less-than-ideal.

Public transit was (and is, in this sort of situation) a non-option if I was going to maintain any extracurricular options (and even then, a multi-hour commute would have been necessary for the most part).

Now, it would seem to be possible to simply issue a severely restricted "special circumstances" license for kids with either only one parent/guardian/capable adult or who are in a similar living situation (two parents, but one can't drive for health reasons and the other has to drive them around), but there's no mechanism for that in the law pretty much anywhere that I know of now. Basically, you've got enough situations where parents can't play taxi driver and where schools aren't in a position to offer continual bus service all afternoon, and where public transit either doesn't exist or is horridly impractical at best (rural areas come to mind) that pushing the license age much past 16 runs into practical problems...and as has been pointed out, you've got enough 17-year-olds in college (either due to birthday timing or double-promotion...this share of the population may be modest, but it is still significant) or who take classes at community colleges, etc. (i.e. in situations the school bus won't cover) that you'd need a lot of exceptions in the law to make a higher driving age work.
 
Now, it would seem to be possible to simply issue a severely restricted "special circumstances" license for kids with either only one parent/guardian/capable adult or who are in a similar living situation (two parents, but one can't drive for health reasons and the other has to drive them around), but there's no mechanism for that in the law pretty much anywhere that I know of now.

There is ! . the DMV can Grant limited license to let Teens get Licenses for exactly what happened to you ..... they are however not publicized very well .

Let me redact my blanket statement ,,

What We really need is a LBs and HP per age limit .....

no teen out side of unique circumstances Needs more then a smart car worth of car if they are really just "" going to school and in town """

I survive on a Dorky Geeky Segway ! I pack 18 Miles a day on occasion .

8567827906_7f27ff71db.jpg


remember small = more error Room!!!!!! = Less chance of teen to bust a mirror off or worse ...

As a former Iowain I can understan how the cold is . Yes a Car is needed . However untill we really do more training with how we teach kids to drive ... they will be the terror of the roads ..

Do you know Why I dont have a car ? I was home schooled and never had the opportunity to learn .......

at this advanced age of 26 I would have to just risk getting crushed ( I cant just go back to HS can I ? ) and just learn by doing with no place to rack up 100s of hours to get where I shuld be .

I Refuse to put the public at risk ........Or my insurance ....

the few months I did drive in Iowa it was in this HUGE boat callsed a subaru Outback ....... I hated that thing ... It might as well have been a big rig ....

Ya know my dad offerd to buy me a smart car..... I said no ,, . to this day I regret it ! ....
 
I would strongly support smart car sized vehicles for early drivers while restricting them from larger vehicles until they've demonstrated responsible driving during their first few years.
 
I would strongly support smart car sized vehicles for early drivers while restricting them from larger vehicles until they've demonstrated responsible driving during their first few years.
So would it just be teenagers of families that could afford a special new car for Junior that could have cars then? No more hand-me-downs cars like most of us who were fortunate enough to have cars as teenagers? Or would every teenager be issued a government supplied smart car sized vehicle? My mind boggles, truly.

Captcha image? a wheel :)
 
I would strongly support smart car sized vehicles for early drivers while restricting them from larger vehicles until they've demonstrated responsible driving during their first few years.
Or what about someone like me who sat in 30-40 different vehicles, before finding ONE that I could fit inside of, the Ford Edge?
 
I would strongly support smart car sized vehicles for early drivers while restricting them from larger vehicles until they've demonstrated responsible driving during their first few years.
So would it just be teenagers of families that could afford a special new car for Junior that could have cars then? No more hand-me-downs cars like most of us who were fortunate enough to have cars as teenagers? Or would every teenager be issued a government supplied smart car sized vehicle? My mind boggles, truly.
To counter that concern we could define approved new driver cars to include civics and corollas and similarly sized vehicles while still reducing the number of brand new drivers starting out in vehicles larger and heavier than they can properly handle.

Or what about someone like me who sat in 30-40 different vehicles, before finding ONE that I could fit inside of, the Ford Edge?
I'm 6'4" and all I ever drive are smaller passenger cars. I've rented dozens of models over the years without issue. I don't know why it would require forty attempts to find a vehicle you could fit into, but my guess is that your situation is unusual compared to the experiences of most first time drivers.
 
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