So true. The station's lead agent "Sandy" (she is described in the book published about the California Zephyr) has told me that GSC is the second busiest stop enroute (not counting the end points), after Denver. And on many of my trips coming into GSC eastbound, the conductor has alerted coach passengers over the P.A. that every unoccupied seat will be needed from GSC to DEN, due to the large crowd expected to board.
All-Day Staffed Stations For Just One Train?
- Thread starter jebr
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I used to ride the old RGZ fairly often back in the day for that 'weekend getaway' I mentioned. Sometimes over 200 would get off and on for the next day's return...the train was like a ghost town from Glenwood Springs on to Salt Lake City in comparison, for much of the year. In the summer, it would be much busier over the western portion of the route.
Let us also consider stations that only see a few trains per day. Pittsburgh see the departure and arrival of the Pennsylvanian and Capitol Limited each day. The CL arrives at 5 AM, the Pennyslvanian departs around 7AM then arrives back at 8 PM the same day followed by the CL at 11:45PM. Point is that there is a 9 hour span where there is no train activity. The PGH station is manned only for baggage service on the CL and for ticketing. It is a big city station so it is right for Amtrak to provide the station services but all they need there is part time help. With the train schedule being what it is this station should offer a great second job opportunity not a full time "sit on your behind" situation. I just hope that Amtrak is smart enough to utilize part time labor where it is needed.
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Nathanael
Guest
I've seen it used heavily when the Empire Builder was delayed or cancelled. People going in and out of the station ALL day long changing their reservations or figuring out what to do about the bus.
The real truth is, for stations like Minneapolis-St. Paul, there is enough business to demand that they be staffed all day. The embarassement is that there's only one train per day. Minneapolis should really have more trains per day.
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Nathanael
Guest
That's actually pretty clever: more service, Amtrak spends less money, the workers still get full-time jobs...
It really only makes sense at stations where keeping the station open longer *will* sell more tickets. But at really-quite-large places like Flagstaff, Pittsburgh, and Minneapolis, it *will* sell more tickets.
To repeat myself, the answer is more trains.
Amtrak needs manned stations regardless of how many trains the station handles daily.
There are always going to be customers to want to do business in person with a person.
Also, unfortunately, there are still Amtrak transactions that you have to do in person such as using the misleadingly named e-vouchers or picking up a rail pass.
It's totally aggravating to me because the closest manned station is an hour away and I prefer to do everything online.
If I ever have to cancel a reservation again, I'll take the 10% hit rather than drive there and back to use an e-voucher - ugh.
There are always going to be customers to want to do business in person with a person.
Also, unfortunately, there are still Amtrak transactions that you have to do in person such as using the misleadingly named e-vouchers or picking up a rail pass.
It's totally aggravating to me because the closest manned station is an hour away and I prefer to do everything online.
If I ever have to cancel a reservation again, I'll take the 10% hit rather than drive there and back to use an e-voucher - ugh.
I'm skeptical that closing it for a bit in the afternoon would strongly affect sales or customer experience. After all, the train is very rarely over 4 hours late. While tickets can be rebooked and such, hopefully Amtrak's scheduling leaves room for those one-off instances where you need a person there.
A bit off-topic: Anyone here know what the volume is of the thru-way stops that are offered through Jefferson Lines?
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Bus Nut
Guest
I am in total agreement. I would also say, don't underestimate the importance of other services like baggage and freight handling to locals and baggage lockers to visitors (besides full service ticket sales). It seems like the computer gods don't want me to complete this post today, but let me just say that that "wonderful" Lacey station was not so wonderful as to relieve me of my backpack for a few hours. I had a good time but I have no plans to return. Very pretty, very painful with a heavy backpack. However, I have made plans to go back to Ljubljana, Slovenia, and I'm bringing friends. No bigger or more beautiful than Olympia, but they have a full service staffed station. With lockers. No contest.
The Lacey station is nothing more than a municipal amenity. They think they are being good ambassadors for their region, but without those other services (the ONLY service was a broken Quiktrak machine--they couldn't even tell us if the train was coming on time) well... Olympia-Lacey is getting what they pay for.
Look, I get it, travel and tourism is not a high profit, high stimulus industry. But those same basic travel amenities grease the wheels of commerce as well. Small towns in the US are willing to lose huge sums (and take even larger sums from the feds) to operate rural airports at a loss. They keep full time staff there despite the small numbers of flights.
I have some professional experience that is very relevant to this discussion, but rather than make an argument from authority, let me just riddle you this: let's say you had municipal "ambassadors" at the rural airport. Nice, right? Tell people where to stay, how to get a cab, the sights, etc.
Would you want them booking airline tickets? Would the airlines?
Rail Freak
Engineer
My home station is STP, which is really only a manned bus stop connecting to either the Silver Star (Tampa) or Silver Meteor (Orlando).They are closed on Sunday, but you can reserve a trip from there on Sundays. I've never traveled from there on a Sunday, I'll have to call & see what's up with that
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Bus Nut
Guest
Yes, it would. Trust me. I do a lot of traveling and I hate cabs. I also hate waiting outside a locked station. Minneapolis-Saint Paul is not a whistle stop and shouldn't be run like one.
You can't always cut your way to prosperity. Amtrak is doing better adding frequencies than it ever was cutting back services. Cutting services just made the losses flow faster. When you're talking about cutting out baggage/tickets/toilets/climate controlled waiting area you're talking about cutting out core services. It's not like killing mail-baggage service or a one-way unsupported line to nowhere or some amenity nobody used.
Take a closer look at Greyhound sometime. Observe how they staff their stations. I think you will find that they have a similar list of essentials. If anything, they staff more aggressively than Amtrak.
Amtrak compared to Greyhound actually has a sweet deal in that Greyhound usually only rents space in the biggest cities' intermodal facilities (which often get a good infusion of local tax dollar subsidy to operate/maintain). Otherwise it owns stations (responsible for building/maintenance) and it pays property taxes as well as local fees for every patron. Amtrak doesn't have to pay these patron fees and while it owns and pays taxes on a lot of stations it's sloughed off most of the rural low passenger count stations so if the building is still there and not boarded up it's a municipal project or maybe a commuter rail station (upon which no property taxes are paid, btw... sometimes the only income is parking fees). (Some ex stations are privately owned, too. Restaurants, etc.) So if Amtrak has full time staff at a station it's a good bet that they have a good business case to have that staff there. Oh, and they DO shut down facilities and yank staff from stations. Absent Congress critter interference there is no moss growing on Amtrak when they decide to roll something up.
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Bus Nut
Guest
Word.
I'm not advocating for making MSP unstaffed. Far from it.
From a layman's perspective, though, it seems that closing down the station for a bit in the afternoon would save money, since it would break the day into two full-time shifts while still having the station open and serving customers during the times the station is used (for the 8/28 and bus connections in the morning and the bus connections to the 7/27 in the evening.) Maybe with the way Amtrak's staffing work there wouldn't be any real savings, but I'd be a bit surprised if that were the case.
I'm not advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We still need staffed stations, especially at busier stations. At the same time as a taxpayer I want to make sure that my subsidy is working as effectively as possible, which may mean having the station only staffed during train and connecting bus times instead of all day, especially with only one train each way a day.
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Bus Nut
Guest
Right, but shutting down those services means essentially kicking out everyone and not being able to provide those services... they aren't going to take bags, shut the whole place down, then offer bags again. So you and your bags will have to leave in between arrivals. Wanted to visit the art museum? Too bad. :wacko: Want to catch a nap between connections? Go outside with the other hobos. :blink: Or they might lock everything and keep the waiting area open (still requires some sort of staff there to do this b/c of liability). Oops, no toilets. Locked up. Sorry. :angry:
No ticket services in the middle of the afternoon? Does this make sense? Have you ever worked in a little glass booth and handled walkups? A lot of people get off work right then.
What if you are a sleeper patron? I know it doesn't have a lounge but that's kind of a sorry service level. "Oh, take a cab to such and such hotel and be a hobo at their bar, then cab back at such and such a time."
I did a quick Google. MSP is the 16th largest MSA in the United States. According to an Amtrak press release from 2012 it handles 120,000 on/off's annually and is the busiest station in the state. It is right below Ann Arbor, MI in #'s (but crushed by other Midwest cities with more trains per day). The Empire Builder had the second highest Customer Satisfaction Index score for a long distance train in 2010 (bested only by the Auto Train). The Empire Builder is third in cost recovery for an LD train (bested by Auto Train and Palmetto) and in the top third for ALL routes.
Amtrak's ridership and revenue has been going up for a decade. Part of it is the times... part of it is I think they (and the states) are finally getting a hang of this thing.
Who are they kicking out, though? Amtrak's website doesn't state any connections that would have people laid over there for that period of time. The only storage there is checked baggage service, which you could still have checked up to a day early. You still wouldn't have access to them, and the station currently isn't very convenient on public transit, at least to serve as a "home base."
While I don't know how many people buy tickets right then, again, tickets could still be bought online during those times, and there'd still be other hours to purchase ticket (including 5+ hours before the night train arrives, and no later than currently for the morning train.) Maybe they're selling a lot of tickets and I just didn't see it, but no one came in or out of the station while I was there for about 30 minutes around that time, and no one other than staff was in the station. (I know anecdotal evidence is very weak, but I don't see many logical reasons that people would be at the station during the afternoon hours.)
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Bus Nut
Guest
You're making a whole lot of assumptions, young man, such as that passengers will only be in the station to make Amtrak to Amtrak connections. Not true!
hboy: 120,000 ppl per year use MSP as an origin or destination. They may be waiting after arrival or prior to departure. They may be connecting to other transportation services (such as local transit or other intercity services) when they get there.Then, you assume that agent ticket services are obsolete. Not so. For example, while there aren't many Amtrak international itineraries, you must present passport in person to get your boarding documents. But that's a special case. Let's look at general boardings. Not everyone buys their tickets online. Some can't even buy on the phone. Suppose you are a working class person who is "unbanked" and must purchase with cash. (Unbanked: if you bounce/kite enough checks you end up on a banker's blacklist--and those prepaid cards cost money.) Suppose you work construction 5a-330p or some schedule like that. I'm sure Greyhound would love to sell all of their tickets online too but they can't. I know a few young and poor people and they use the internet for everything but there is still a good core of people who don't have that skillset or who haven't invested in that kind of equipment.
Have you seen the kind of lines Amtrak ticket agents get at major stations? Imagine if everyone who wanted to buy tickets or change their tickets had to queue up only at certain hours. And the agents are trying to file people on the train and do baggage at the same time. People would be stuck in line and miss the train, that or Amtrak would have to have an army of PTs to handle all the transactions that are being "metered" through slower times of day right now.
All of the cities--including MSP!--who have sunk $$$ and political capital into intermodal stations with restaurant/shopping tenants can't be wrong. All of those patrons passing through want to be watered, fed, pampered, supplied, oriented, even entertained. See Washington Union Station for a good North American example.
TVRM610
Conductor
So we compare Amtrak to Greyhound but not. Megabus? Mega bus seems to be doing great with the limited services they offer.
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Bus Nut
Guest
The plural of anecdote is not data. Of course those 120K patrons do not all travel like clockwork, 328/day. There are peak travel times. You are going to have more people buying tickets prior to those peak travel times and more people hanging around the station during those peak travel times.
Now, as to whether the station for the 16th biggest MSA is underused--yes! Of course! They ought to have a second train to Chicago. http://www.midwesthsr.org/network Maybe HSR Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis?
Looks like the state/metro see a future for rail despite Wisconsin going all New Hampshire and refusenik: http://metrocouncil.org/Transportation/Projects/Current-Projects/Central-Corridor.aspx
Jefferson Lines is already using SPUD. (Amtrak is waiting for BNSF to do some more work this summer.) According to their website they have staff there from 6a-6p 365 days a year. They also advertise on their website that the station facility is open 24 hours. Perhaps you should call them and share some of your good business sense. Clearly as a privately operated concern they are completely confused about
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Bus Nut
Guest
Yes, when you only "skim the cream" by running non-stops to only the biggest destinations and also skimp on li'l things like safety, you can scrape by. I blame Greyhound for letting the Brits eat their cheese--they were regulated for years in a way which kept competition out, and they forgot how vulnerable they were without it.
Megabus is brillies at grabbing modeshare that didn't exist before they came in the market, in other words very broke young people who wouldn't be making the trip at all without the lure of $1 rides. This is a twofer because they don't have to deal with the habits and needs of the coach industry's existing customers. Nor do they have to grab the mass market. They're only going after a segment.
Megabus is not a network. Megabus can only get you to certain places at certain times. For better or for worse, Amtrak is not going after their market segment. Realistically, I don't think they can compete there. Amtrak can't afford all the wrecks Megabuses gets into, for one thing. They're no longer allowed to offer dirt cheap off peak teaser price tickets like Megabus can (not every seat on that bus went for $1). And they can fill the train with people who'd rather pay more to get a cushier seat than get crammed in like sardines for a lower price and the promise of spotty wifi. There are some pretty long threads on railroad.net on the economics of coach cars, ticket price versus number of seats per car. Amtrak's going to do what it needs to do to make the best return per car and even in the NEC that doesn't seem to be a commuter-rail-style smush-up. There are some who find this unfair, of course.
I'll concede for now the purchasing ticket point, simply because I'm not sure how well that's used. However, we already limit ticket sales to some extent, as they're not open in the middle of the night. I haven't even been suggesting we're only open for an hour around the window of the train...there's still plenty of time for the people who would buy tickets on-site to buy them, albeit maybe in a bit more inconvenient fashion (for example, they'll have to run over there at 4 or 4:30 pm instead of "right after work" if they get off at 3 or 3:30 pm.)You're making a whole lot of assumptions, young man, such as that passengers will only be in the station to make Amtrak to Amtrak connections. Not true!
However, the current Midway station can only be effectively used for Amtrak to Amtrak services (including the Thruway services offered by Jefferson Lines.) Other connections are either made at the Greyhound terminal in Minneapolis or at SPUD. Local transit doesn't even directly serve the station...it's two blocks down the road on University Ave (and it's just a flag stop.) While people may be waiting for someone to pick them up, apparently closing the station about an hour after the train from Chicago arrives is enough time for people to be picked up, because they close at 11:45 PM.
The point I'm trying to make is that Midway is not used for non-Amtrak connections, as no one else serves it. If it did, or it had a robust enough network that it made sense to be open all day, sure. But I don't see that with Midway. SPUD hopefully will be that way, but then Amtrak isn't the only user, and we're back to that ticketing question again.
However, I'm guessing Midway is not the only one in its position, and it may be worth evaluating situations like it.
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Bus Nut
Guest
Which is a completely irrelevant argument, as most transportation services have a massive dropoff in customers in the middle of the night unless they are open to do red-eye connections. Clearly, SPUD is positioning to be exactly this (against, 16th largest MSA in the United States) but aside from a mini-peak of concert-goers/barhoppers you generally are going to have a massive dropoff in activity. There is no comparison here to mid-afternoon.
For you, an inconvenience, for others a near impossibility. You admit you're a layman and only looking at what is convenient for you. You buy tickets online in your underwear at 2am. That's great. I've worked face to face with working class people for a long time. 4:30 is when you need to head to the daycare to pick up your child or be charged by the minute for being late. And rush hour is already in swing so expect longer travel times. Doesn't look like a great time to run an errand any more, does it?
Or suppose you are a traveler. You need to get your ticket changed. You head to the station during the daytime and find out it is completely shut. How friendly is that?
Many airports and station facilities close at 11p-12a time frame. They may even be "closed" when final arrivals come in. Final arrivals at Washington Union Station occur after the night-time curfew. People scramble out of there and cops stand around making sure you leave. No fun if you are a night owl but most of society, at least the ones who make the decisions, are on a circadian rhythm. The point you are making is true but not particularly relevant.
Furthermore, you have to look at the timing of accommodations. Most hotels want you out by 11am. So you may need to check bags during the day prior to a night-time departure. However, check-in times usually are no later than 4pm. So for business or leisure travelers there is no reason to linger after a late evening arrival before proceeding to accommodations. Make sense?
Now when college students rule the world I would expect things to be different on that front.
Nobody walks? Cabs are banned in Minnesoooda? Just because the connection sucks doesn't mean nobody is attempting it. When Amtrak moves into SPUD probably this activity will increase in a massive way. MSP certainly hopes so.
You seem to have trouble grasping the fact that this is a high volume station in a top-20 MSA. You have also failed to acknowledge statements earlier by others in this thread with intimate knowledge of Amtrak staff scheduling practices. The fact is that keeping the station open is probably a more productive use of staff time than cutting hours and closing the station to patrons during that "gap" that so bothers you.
I scanned through the thread again and I haven't found mention of the staffing issue. Maybe it is simpler/easier/more productive to keep it open over that gap, but I don't see the statements.
Frankly, I think we're just two different people with two different experiences and outlooks, and we just each see things differently and expect different things. Luckily, I'm not the one making these decisions...someone with much more information than I am is, and I guess I'll just have to trust that there's a good reason for it that I can't see.
TVRM610
Conductor
This past fall I rode Jefferson lines to Omaha to connect to the Westbound Zephyr. I walked with my suitcase, had dinner, and then walked further to the train station. I got there about 8:30 and found out it doesn't open until 9:30 pm. Guess what, I waited. Outside. (Oh the horror).
I'm not arguing about Minniapolis, I don't know the deal there but to suggest Amtrak passengers need an all day lounge or ticket window is just the kind of nonsense that keeps Amtrak losing as much money as they do.
Would it have been more convenient for me if the station had been open at 8? Yes. But big deal... I waited.
Fargo ND doesn't open until midnight. Seems to work fine for them too.
I'm not arguing about Minniapolis, I don't know the deal there but to suggest Amtrak passengers need an all day lounge or ticket window is just the kind of nonsense that keeps Amtrak losing as much money as they do.
Would it have been more convenient for me if the station had been open at 8? Yes. But big deal... I waited.
Fargo ND doesn't open until midnight. Seems to work fine for them too.
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Guest_guanjin
Guest
About micro-managiing MSP Midway - Yup the station does little (but not none) business between #8 departure and #7 arrival. Current lateness of #8 means staff needed between bustitution around 7am and #8 arrival anywhere from 06:00AM to 12:00 noon (or later). Closing the station for the afternoon would require hiring some kind of security for the interim because of the many private rail cars and passenger automobiles parked nearby. (see the other thread about free parking at Midway vs SPUD). Midway station is in an industrial and commercial zone between the University Avenue main drag and many small commercial and industrial sites, and a "wet house" fro incorrigible drunkards. It would be imprudent to leave the site totally unstaffed and unguarded just when the drunks are waking up and looking for cash for the next drunk. That's where the station is.
There have been some false statements about the absence of public transit. Yes it is two blocks walk from the Midway station to the busiest Metro Transit bus line in MSP #16 which runs every 10-15 minutes daytime and evenings, and hourly at least even in the 0-dark hours. "Flag stop" for the bus - sorry - that was a stupid thiing to say - all bus stops are "flag stops" if you mean the bus only stops if there's a passenger at the stop.
Departing the old Midway station on several recent trips I have walked to the bus stop with other detraining passengers and given them local directions. And conversely, many times on the Metro Transit #16 heading east past the station, I have given directions to the station from the bus stop to passengers local and foreign who were unsure about connecting to the Builder.
So let's forget about "no local transit" If walking two blocks means "no local transit" -- well - very few local trainsit users have "local transit".
So, mr Mica, I don't know how much money could be saved by cutting hours, and hiring security guards, and losing some revenue -- but it's probably no big deal.
There have been some false statements about the absence of public transit. Yes it is two blocks walk from the Midway station to the busiest Metro Transit bus line in MSP #16 which runs every 10-15 minutes daytime and evenings, and hourly at least even in the 0-dark hours. "Flag stop" for the bus - sorry - that was a stupid thiing to say - all bus stops are "flag stops" if you mean the bus only stops if there's a passenger at the stop.
Departing the old Midway station on several recent trips I have walked to the bus stop with other detraining passengers and given them local directions. And conversely, many times on the Metro Transit #16 heading east past the station, I have given directions to the station from the bus stop to passengers local and foreign who were unsure about connecting to the Builder.
So let's forget about "no local transit" If walking two blocks means "no local transit" -- well - very few local trainsit users have "local transit".
So, mr Mica, I don't know how much money could be saved by cutting hours, and hiring security guards, and losing some revenue -- but it's probably no big deal.
The ticket office hours in Spokane, as noted earlier, are 10 PM to 5:30 AM, not exactly prime hours, but of course that's due to the hours the EB arrives/departs from Spokane. As the station is also home to Greyhound and Northwest Trailways bus lines, the building itself is open 24/7.
The point I was trying to make is that Midway does not serve as a transfer point or have public transit to its doorstep, so people catching a bus from the EB or as part of a local transit route would not use Midway Station as their waiting point...they would walk two blocks to the stop on University to wait for connecting transit. (Also hence the "flag stop" verbiage...that was in distinction to the multiple transit centers in Metro Transit's system.)
