All-Day Staffed Stations For Just One Train?

[oldtimer]

Just to insert a union fact, 40 hours at 5 Days X 8 Hours is normal but the unions that staff stations and repair and inspect trains all have a provision in their contract for 4 Days X 10 Hours. And some of them have the ability to have their start time set back if trains are running late.

Oldtimer aka Al

I am a strong supporter of unions! So much so that I still pay my union dues even 5 years after retiring.

 

[Ryan]

Took a deeper look at the numbers when I got home.

Assuming that there's a minute for minute slip in the time that the station closes for each minute that the train departs late, there's a grand total of 49 hours of overtime paid in 2012.

If that's "the most over paid staffed station", then Amtrak's doing pretty good and hardly the "tragedy" that you describe.

 

[VentureForth]

You're like a magician - Pay attention to the overtime so we can forget the main issue - the fact that several people are needed at 40 (sometimes +) hours per week for what essentially amounts to around 2 hours of real work per day.

I'm not anti union. I'm anti abusive unions. Unions had their place in this country and arguably still do in some ways. But the heavy handed, overpowering, shake-down attitude of some of the major unions have destroyed more companies than helped their employees.

 

[Ryan]

You spelled "I was completely wrong about the facts and I apologize" wrong.

You claimed that the timekeeping of the Sunset Limited was causing massive amounts of overtime to have to be paid.

That claim was proven false.

 

[VentureForth]

Do you read?

Overtime was a footnote in my comments. I quote: "real tragedy is because of late trains how much OVERTIME these underworked employees are cashing in on." The fact that 3 to 4 to 5 people are each working 40 hours per week for 2 hours worth of work per day is sad. But the real tragedy is how much overtime has to be paid ON TOP of countless unproductive time.

Now, what's in your other hand behind your back, or up your sleeve, or in your hat? What's your next slight of speech?

 

[Ryan]

Do you read?

Overtime was a footnote in my comments. I quote: "real tragedy is because of late trains how much OVERTIME these underworked employees are cashing in on." The fact that 3 to 4 to 5 people are each working 40 hours per week for 2 hours worth of work per day is sad. But the real tragedy is how much overtime has to be paid ON TOP of countless unproductive time.

Now, what's in your other hand behind your back, or up your sleeve, or in your hat? What's your next slight of speech?

What OVERTIME CAUSED BY LATE TRAINS? All 49 hours of it last year? The facts do not support your position.

I read just fine, thanks. If you can't be polite and discuss things in a civil manner, I suggest you go elsewhere.

Edited to add quote since we're on a new page.

 

[VentureForth]

Pot calling the kettle black, are we? I don't think I'm being uncivil. You don't like what I have to say, I don't like what you have to say. I believe you are making much ado about nothing. My focus was NOT on the OT. Take ALL my OT discussion out of this thread, and my position still stands. Amtrak is paying too much for labor at staffed stations where services are required but the amount of work is minimal. Not ONCE have YOU addressed THIS. You want to focus on OT SOOOO BAAAD that you're pulling your hair out to argue with me over a footnote.

 

[Ryan]

Rather than laugh, maybe you can point out where I've been anywhere near as insulting as you have.

I'm sorry that you take such offense to someone having actual data to inform your opinions and that the data doesn't support your conclusions.

 

[VentureForth]

You're right - I edited my post, but you're too quick on the comebacks.

 

[Ryan]

My focus was NOT on the OT. Take ALL my OT discussion out of this thread, and my position still stands.

Then like the ACA, you ought not have brought it up. Rather than throw a fit defending it, claim that I'm wrong, then belittle me when I demonstrate that I am actually right, you could have chosen to do the civil thing an apologize. That option is still open to you.

I think that it's well hashed out that there are good reasons to keep stations open during the day when people can walk in, get information and book tickets. If you disagree, that's fine. But the claims that the timekeeping of the Sunset Limited are driving a tragic amount of overtime are 100% dead wrong.

 

[VentureForth]

I'm still trying to find where I said you were wrong. Irrelevant, yes. Wrong, no.

 

[Ryan]

Random dude on the internet: 9/29/13, #2 Departed: 3 hours and 6 minutes late. OTP 8/2013: 69.2% Last 12 months: 76.0%. Hardly 80%.

"Hardy 80%" seems to be claiming that my numbers are incorrect. Too bad you used endpoint numbers for the wrong train (those numbers are for #2) instead of the numbers for the correct train at the correct station.

That's funny - most OTP at endpoints generally are BETTER than midpoints because of the excessive amount of padding. Want real route performance numbers? Get someone to compile OTP at the next to last stop on a line.

Just 'cause you have a knack to state something with authority and confidence doesn't make it right.

Here you use some theory about how you think things are to explicitly say that I'm not right. In general, yes. Padding helps OTP numbers. In this specific case, no. The numbers at Houston are better than the endpoint numbers.

 

[VentureForth]

Interestingly, there is a one hour pad built into the Houston station. Makes it easy to keep time there. From what I've read on this forum (albeit 2005), there is a crew change point in Beaumont, but not Houston. Why does the train need a one hour layover in Houston? But even if there were a full servicing in Houston an hour is unnecessary. At an average of 65 pax on and 65 pax off per day (based on 20,327 passengers, thrice/week, in 2012), that's highly average. Orlando handles roughtly twice that, per train, in 12-16 minutes. Orlando has throughway coaches to coordinate with, too. The only other mid-point station that I'm personally aware of without scouring the whole time table is 50 minutes Westbound and 28 minutes Eastbound on the SWC in Albuquerque.

My point (which has always been and continues to be, relevant to the OP) is that there is too much staff being paid at HOS for the services required. You can focus on the OT (or lack thereof, if that is more satisfying). I'm focused on overstaffing and an example where Amtrak's greatest operating expenditure is human resources is full of fat fit for trimming.

And, for the record, I would LOVE to see more trains come through Houston and see passenger count increase by an order of magnitude. But in absence of that, it may be time for Houston to become unstaffed.

 

[Nathanael]

My point (which has always been and continues to be, relevant to the OP) is that there is too much staff being paid at HOS for the services required.

Whereas my point is that there is the right number of staff being paid at Houston for the services required, but that the required level of services (multiple trains per day) aren't being provided. ;-)

And, for the record, I would LOVE to see more trains come through Houston and see passenger count increase by an order of magnitude.

So we agree.

But in absence of that, it may be time for Houston to become unstaffed.

I do not think that's going to help get more trains in Houston, which is the goal. I think that would actually make it harder to get more trains in Houston... perhaps you disagree.

 

[printman2000]

Just to add, Houston also has two thruway buses every day. Add that to the Sunset and you have three total arrival/departures every day but one, I think. There are many stations that only have two total arrival/departures every day.

 

[Ryan]

My point (which has always been and continues to be, relevant to the OP) is that there is too much staff being paid at HOS for the services required. You can focus on the OT (or lack thereof, if that is more satisfying).

You brought up the OT because of timekeeping.

You doubled down on it when presented with facts contrary to your assertion.

You then backtracked and tried to claim you never said I was wrong, until I provided the quotes.

At each of those points, you could have done the right thing. Instead you continue to wrongly state that I'm wrongly focused on the overtime.

Is it really that difficult for you to say "I'm sorry, I screwed up"?

 

[VentureForth]

Fact: Houston has one train per day, six days per week.

Fact: Houston has full ticketing and baggage service.

Fact: Houston has 20,000 riders per year.

Fact: Amtrak employees at LEAST three full time employees with full benefits to satisfy these services.

Fact: The SSL has a ONE HOUR pad in the schedule Eastbound and a 30 minute pad Westbound more than any other midpoint that doesn't serve another purpose (ie: switching cars, crew change, etc).

Fact: OT is sometimes paid, albeit not a lot, even one hour of OT is tragic for the amount of work these employees have during their straight time, pushing further the inefficiencies of Amtrak's already expensive labor force.

Fact: Ryan can't (won't?) let go. Must Roar Louder, even in light of his OT premise that OT isn't necessary because trains are ontime out of Houston 80% of the time because of excess padding.

Opinion: The scheduling could even allow for the employees to be scheduled for up to four hours before and four hours after departure, making even the few late trains within their regularly scheduled shift.

Fact: Nothing to apologize for.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

I THOUGHT WE ALL HAD AGREED TO DISAGREE AND TO NOT ATTACK OTHERS. You two need to stop. For others who are interested in this thread, your arguing and personal attacks are enough.

Back to the point of the thread, I have already said that Worcester is open 12-8 M-F, there are only two trains, 448 & 449, but I would have issues with the office not being open when I want to go pick up my rail pass and reservations when the station is quiet with no rushing around of the ticket/attendant. He is the only one there, therefore handles everything that goes with a train arriving and leaving.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

Fact: Houston has one train per day, six days per week.

I am very confused with this fact, according to Amtrak.com, the only trains that travel thru Houston is the Sunset Limited, and that only runs 3 days a week. Does #1 arrive there three days and #2 arrive on three others?

Edited - Never mind, I figured it out myself, I always thought they ran the same days, my bad.

 

[VentureForth]

I have already said that Worcester is open 12-8 M-F, there are only two trains, 448 & 449, but I would have issues with the office not being open when I want to go pick up my rail pass and reservations when the station is quiet with no rushing around of the ticket/attendant. He is the only one there, therefore handles everything that goes with a train arriving and leaving.

What if he gets sick? And, I guess no one gets their checked bags on Saturdays and Sundays?

Fact: Houston has one train per day, six days per week.

I am very confused with this fact, according to Amtrak.com, the only trains that travel thru Houston is the Sunset Limited, and that only runs 3 days a week. Does #1 arrive there three days and #2 arrive on three others?
Edited - Never mind, I figured it out myself, I always thought they ran the same days, my bad.

If, somehow, they could fanagle the schedule so that both #1 & #2 would meet in Houston within a 10-hour window on the same day, that would be the most efficient. Unfortunately, that wouldn't bode for the rest of the schedule.

 

[Dan O]

I knew politics could be contentious but I never thought the subject of staffing Amtrak stations as a very contentious topic.

Dan

 

[jebr]

With the new baggage services at some not-always-staffed stations, it seems as though maybe baggage alone isn't a reason to have a station staffed seven days a week.

However, it seems a bigger limitation is that, if true, Amtrak has to hire a lot of full-time employees to do jobs that would probably only warrant part-time status. As an example, it would make sense to hire baggage handlers on as part-time employees at stations with only one or two trains a day. (It seems surprising to me that they can't do so...a baggage handler only really needs to be there around train arrival and departure time.)

And while yes, we do need more trains, saying "the problem isn't the staffing, it's not enough trains" is missing the point. Yes, a city like Houston or Minneapolis should have enough trains each day to easily necessitate full-time staff and then some. But currently they don't, and until they do it's nearly pointless to staff them like those trains are there. Especially in the day where more and more people are working online, it makes sense to invest the money in beefing up online services, perhaps at the loss of some in-person services (after all, Amtrak doesn't have anywhere near an infinite amount of money.) Hopefully Amtrak, should they do this, uses a scalpel for cutting station services and staffing, not a hatchet.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

I have already said that Worcester is open 12-8 M-F, there are only two trains, 448 & 449, but I would have issues with the office not being open when I want to go pick up my rail pass and reservations when the station is quiet with no rushing around of the ticket/attendant. He is the only one there, therefore handles everything that goes with a train arriving and leaving.

What if he gets sick? And, I guess no one gets their checked bags on Saturdays and Sundays?

Fact: Houston has one train per day, six days per week.

I am very confused with this fact, according to Amtrak.com, the only trains that travel thru Houston is the Sunset Limited, and that only runs 3 days a week. Does #1 arrive there three days and #2 arrive on three others?
Edited - Never mind, I figured it out myself, I always thought they ran the same days, my bad.

If, somehow, they could fanagle the schedule so that both #1 & #2 would meet in Houston within a 10-hour window on the same day, that would be the most efficient. Unfortunately, that wouldn't bode for the rest of the schedule.

They have two that work different days, so as far as if he gets sick, I am sure they have someone to fill in. Just like any other place where only one person works alone.

As far as not getting checked bags on Saturday and Sunday. Well again you showed that Ryan is right. The station office is closed and therefore if you are scheduled to arrive on Saturday or Sunday, you cannot check your bags. This is why unless I am traveling a short distance with out a checked bag, I make sure I arrive and leave during the week.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

I knew politics could be contentious but I never thought the subject of staffing Amtrak stations as a very contentious topic.

Dan

I would not think it was contentious, but if someone has false information, then anything can be contentious. Seems it runs thru all the threads with this particular member.

 

[Ryan]

If you're talking about me June, there's no reason to be coy about it.

Yes, if someone makes a factually incorrect statement that I have the data to refute, I'm going to refute it. I love going through data and distilling it down to figure out what we can learn from it. The thread from this morning where someone asked about CZ timekeeping over the winter is a perfect example of that. I've got time data for every train arriving at every station in Amtrak's system at my disposal, and have written some software tools to go through that data and provide concrete answers to questions like that. It's something that I do for my job and enjoy greatly.

Telling someone their facts are wrong doesn't have to drive a major conniption fit, though. When I'm incorrect (and believe me, it happens), I do my best to be gracious about it, thank the person for the correction and file it away as a new fact learned without taking it personally.

When it comes to making value judgements based on that data, I don't really have a dog in that fight. My general take is that Amtrak has better data than any of us do, and unless demonstrated otherwise, is competent enough to make use of that data. I think that trying to piece together the scant data that we get from Amtrak and try to pretend like that makes us railfans more qualified to run the railroad is just silly. My only reason for even entering this thread was that I saw a claim that looked interesting and verifiable (timekeeping of train #1 drives employees in Houston to work massive amounts of overtime). I got curious, looked at the data and saw that it didn't support that conclusion.

Anyhow, that's probably far more than anyone is interested in knowing, but that's my thought process.