All-Day Staffed Stations For Just One Train?

[Guest]

Doorstep? At Mall of America one walks more than two blocks to one's car - or to the transit center. At SPUD - from the Amtrak train to the light rail will be about that far -. At CUS it's a long inner-city walk to the Blue Line. Or to Ogilvie. Does that mean these are not ideal multimodal centers? Probably.

No - Midway station lacks a lot (but the free mostly secure parking is a big plus) - and will soon be going away - but to say "no public transit" is one thing - to say "not a great multimodal wonderful way to get anywhere in the city" is something else. Tokyo Central will get you withiin a 500m walk to the train you need for local (Yamanote) but you are still a few transfers away from where you are going (Ueno, Shinjuku, Ikebukuro - and then a subway)

It's true that nobody waits at MSP Midway, except when the train is late.

But none of that means thaat the station should not be staffed during slow hours.

Speaking of the Mall of America -- seems to me that at least half their tenants could shut down for several hous per day - at least the hours I've ever been there. Free market? Profit maximizing?

 

[Ispolkom]

I've always wondered why Minot's station (which also only has two trains a day) isn't closed in the afternoon. But every time I've gone to the depot in the afternoon to do something, I've had to wait in line. I'm not sure if the agents are particularly slow, or the travel plans they handle are particularly complicated, but there you have it. They obviously have the business.

Is the 16 route really the busiest in the Twin Cities? I would have guessed the 4 or 5, especially since the 16 has the 50 and 94 syphoning off rush hour traffic.

 

[Guest]

First, why is the station open all day, from 6:00 AM until 11:45 PM (with the ticketing area open about the same length)? It accommodates just one train each way a day. I know it's a busy station, but is it really necessary for it to be open all day? (There was no one other than staff in the station when I was there.)

How late has that one train ever been? I would think that it would be unwise to close stations just after the scheduled time for a train, since it is not unheard of, for an Amtrak train to be late.

 

[xyzzy]

There are 16 Amtrak stations in NC (I'm excluding stations served only by Thruway buses). Only 3 are served by a single train -- Gastonia (Crescent), Hamlet (Silver Star), and Southern Pines (Silver Star). These three are not staffed; an attendant drops by to open and close them. Hamlet and Southern Pines have a ticket kiosk inside; Gastonia does not. Trains call on these stations only at off-hours.

The other 13 stations are staffed. 5 of them (Burlington, High Point, Kannapolis, Salisbury and Selma) do not have ticket agents or checked baggage service. The other 8 (Cary, Charlotte, Durham, Fayetteville, Greensboro, Raleigh, Rocky Mount, and Wilson) have both ticket agents and checked baggage service. Charlotte, Greensboro, and Rocky Mount are open 24x7.

 

[Nathanael]

I'm not advocating for making MSP unstaffed. Far from it.
From a layman's perspective, though, it seems that closing down the station for a bit in the afternoon would save money,

It wouldn't save much and it would cause more trouble than it's worth.

If the Empire Builder ran like clockwork, like a Swiss train, then maybe it would be justifiable. In fact, however, the Empire Builder is seriously delayed quite often. In order to provide decent customer service, Amtrak would have to call all the staff back in during the afternoon on those days, and pay overtime. It happens often enough that it's worth keeping the staff there all day long.

In the specific case of MSP, Amtrak is also moving to St Paul Union Depot at the end of the year, which has lots of connections: Jefferson Lines and local buses as well as being downtown. Walk-in ticket sales and walk-in inquiries will be substantial. At that point, there may be good arguments to have Amtrak staff present for even *more* hours per day than they currently are. There is no point in cutting the station staff's hours for just a few months if you're just going to increase them again; that creates pointless ill-will.

And the thing is, even Midway gets enough casual traffic to justify keeping it open during the day. It isn't one of those "inaccesssible" stations where nobody would walk there on a whim, like Williams Junction. Midway actually has meaningful amounts of walk-in and local-bus traffic, whether you believe it or not -- it's one of the more low-rent districts of St. Paul, but it's actually pretty densely populated. There were actually *complaints* from some people about Amtrak moving to SPUD because it was going to be a longer walk for them. (Though the Central Corridor light rail should alleviate that somewhat.)

Amtrak has been quite aggressive, in past years, about removing staffing from whistlestops and poorly patronized small town stations. Though Amtrak's bigger priority in that regard has been getting rid of ownership of stations, so that municipalities rather than Amtrak pay for the maintenance (which can cost a lot more than the staffing in some cases). In recent years, Amtrak has started reversing the trend of unstaffed stations, because they've noticed that providing checked luggage can increase patronage by enough to pay for the extra staff -- this was noted specifically in the Cardinal PIP as well in some other reports. It's a tradeoff which must be considered carefully at small stations.

But at busy stations like Minneapolis or Flagstaff, it really is a no-brainer, having the staff there all day is worth it. When the Empire Builder is delayed, cancelled, or short-turned, the staff at MSP gets blasted with work and ends up working very heavily from the moment they get in to the moment they leave. This happens at unpredictable times.

Now what is a waste? What's a waste is that the same Amtrak station staff could handle it just as well if there was another train each way per day. Or four more. Or eight more. And this is Minneapolis-St. Paul -- there's enough demand for more trains! There should definitely be at least one more frequency to Chicago, preferably several more, and there should be a train to Duluth, and there really ought to be a train to Madison, WI.

 

[NW cannonball]

About the soon-to-be abandoned MSP Midway station -- it is only a mile and half from my home - I would have complained about the move to SPUD - but didn't - because I can see the advantages of SPUD.

Being able to walk to MSP Midway, for my own trips or to meet my grown kids, was a great deal for me. For some the free, relatively secure parking was a big plus also. But it will be soon gone

OTOH - MSP Midway was never a good example of an overstaffed station with too many hours open. Sometimes in the afternoon there would be no customers for an hour at a stretch. Like a lot of retailers in the private sector. That's when I like to do my shopping.

It's about revenue vs hourly wages+benefits and customer expectations -- and the customer is always right - ?? And the competent employee can go elsewhere. Even now - if the shift structure is too onerous.

So -- jebr -- you raise a significant point about overstaffing -- but MSP Midway is/hasn't been a good example, nor Flagstaff. Thinking that Nathaniel has got it right.

PS @ ispolkom -- yeah the #5 is more frequent and more passengers including its branches - but include the #50 that stops with the #16 at Vandalia two blocks more from the Midway stop at Cleveland/Transfer -- anyhow - right now there's a lot more Metro Transit buses every 10 minutes within 2 blocks of MSP Midway than at SPUD now -- that will change

 

[VentureForth]

In my humble opinion, the most over paid staffed station is Houston. They have at least THREE full time employees with who knows how many other part timers. They have ONE train per day (not one in each direction, just ONE) with an Eastbound on Tuesday, a Westbound on Wednesday, etc. Oh, and they are open on Thursdays, too, when there is no train!

Now, in almost fairness, they DO have an arrival and departure bus that are both scheduled right at around 1 PM for the thruway service to Longview. However, other than tickets, the bus driver should be able to handle the work.

The office is open from 10:00 - 19:30 every day (including Thurdsday). With a schedule departure of 12:10 PM for #2 on TuFrSu's, plus the two busses, their work is done by 1:30 PM. The kicker is with train #1. It's scheduled MoWeFri to depart at 6:55 PM - 35 minutes before they close. Now, when was the last time the Sunset Limited was on time departing from HOU? So, in addition to the 6 hours of inactivity the previous day, they have arguably the same amount of inactivity before their train on the opposite days. Plus overtime for the late train.

I don't think folks who are hired by Amtrak (or any railroad for that matter) should have an expectation of working "regular hours". North Carolina and countless other locations have replaced Amtrak employees with a Quik-Trak machine and state employees and/or volunteers.

I mean if they can save $225K on dropping two employees from serving cart food in Wisconsin (which arguable should have SOME of that offset by sales), I wonder how many excess employees there are at staffed stations...

 

[Ryan]

Now, when was the last time the Sunset Limited was on time departing from HOU?

Last night?
80% of the time this year?

I'd say they've got the hours set just about right.

Amtrak: 1

Random dude on the internet: 0

 

[Gord]

Amtrak needs manned stations regardless of how many trains the station handles daily.There are always going to be customers to want to do business in person with a person.

Also, unfortunately, there are still Amtrak transactions that you have to do in person such as using the misleadingly named e-vouchers or picking up a rail pass.

It's totally aggravating to me because the closest manned station is an hour away and I prefer to do everything online.

If I ever have to cancel a reservation again, I'll take the 10% hit rather than drive there and back to use an e-voucher - ugh.

I am in total agreement. I would also say, don't underestimate the importance of other services like baggage and freight handling to locals and baggage lockers to visitors (besides full service ticket sales). It seems like the computer gods don't want me to complete this post today, but let me just say that that "wonderful" Lacey station was not so wonderful as to relieve me of my backpack for a few hours. I had a good time but I have no plans to return. Very pretty, very painful with a heavy backpack. However, I have made plans to go back to Ljubljana, Slovenia, and I'm bringing friends. No bigger or more beautiful than Olympia, but they have a full service staffed station. With lockers. No contest.

The Lacey station is nothing more than a municipal amenity. They think they are being good ambassadors for their region, but without those other services (the ONLY service was a broken Quiktrak machine--they couldn't even tell us if the train was coming on time) well... Olympia-Lacey is getting what they pay for.

Look, I get it, travel and tourism is not a high profit, high stimulus industry. But those same basic travel amenities grease the wheels of commerce as well. Small towns in the US are willing to lose huge sums (and take even larger sums from the feds) to operate rural airports at a loss. They keep full time staff there despite the small numbers of flights.

I have some professional experience that is very relevant to this discussion, but rather than make an argument from authority, let me just riddle you this: let's say you had municipal "ambassadors" at the rural airport. Nice, right? Tell people where to stay, how to get a cab, the sights, etc.

Would you want them booking airline tickets? Would the airlines?

I'd argue that travel / tourism is indeed one of the largest industries, revenue generators and employers in the US and Canada. With all the spin offs, hotels, convention centers, event planners, car rentals, taxis, restaurants, entertainment, gas stations, speeding tickets, etc. that the tax revenue alone must be staggering.

Facilitating tourism is an Amtrak function not always acknowledged when considering the value of providing subsidies..Amtrak is not just about moving Americans from point A to point B for business, student travel or visiting family or friends, it is also about tourists from America and around the world. Every tourist they move spends substantial amounts for things noted above. As a small example, I take Amtrak to vacation (often New Orleans from Toronto) once or twice a year for two to three weeks and drop about 3K into the US economy, more if a friend comes with me. Tourism is big bucks and Amtrak long distance trains are a part of it.

Gord

 

[winterskigirl]

I just rode the Empire Builder PDX-GPK and then GPK-SEA. While I was there in East Glacier Park I asked the station agent about the hours. She said the station is closed from 1:00 PM - 5:00 PM so she works a split shift. My westbound train on Friday, EB #7, was running late of course and didn't arrive in GPK until 9:10 P.M. so would guess this station agent has a "flexible" daily schedule :giggle:

 

[June the Coach Rider]

I wonder if the Amtrak Express shipping http://www.amtrak.com/express-shipping has anything to do with the extra hours.

 

[shelzp]

Probably for customer service. Now we book online but it hasn't always been like that and in remote places people still have to get to a staffed station to use vouchers etc.

 

[chakk]

I just rode the Empire Builder PDX-GPK and then GPK-SEA. While I was there in East Glacier Park I asked the station agent about the hours. She said the station is closed from 1:00 PM - 5:00 PM so she works a split shift. My westbound train on Friday, EB #7, was running late of course and didn't arrive in GPK until 9:10 P.M. so would guess this station agent has a "flexible" daily schedule :giggle:

Definitely a "flexible" schedule. Same holds true for the Amtrak agents at GSC. They pledge to keep the station open beyond the normal 5 PM closing time no matter how late #5 or #6 may be -- and I have personally seen each more then 10 hours late into GSC. If necessary, they will call in one of the off-duty agents for that day to take over for an agent who may have been on the job for 12 hours or more already.

 

[Train2104]

I stopped by PGH during the middle of the day a few days ago to pick up a timetable. Except for two bikers pumping their tires, the station was completely empty, yet it was staffed. The baggage window was closed.

I understand having agents a few hours before and a few hours after arrivals and departures, but here train service is between the hours of 8:05pm and 7:30am. More than a 10 hour shift in between. It seems like such a waste.

 

[VentureForth]

Union rules, I imagine. Must have full time employees, must work at least 40 hours/week.

 

[Train2104]

Union rules, I imagine. Must have full time employees, must work at least 40 hours/week.

Such a rule would mean that all employees must work 8 hrs/day. There's more than 1 shift's worth of time from last train to first train here.

 

[VentureForth]

Union rules, I imagine. Must have full time employees, must work at least 40 hours/week.

Such a rule would mean that all employees must work 8 hrs/day. There's more than 1 shift's worth of time from last train to first train here.

That's why more than the necessary number of people are employeed at these stations. I think Houston is one of the biggest waste of manpower on the system. At least two shifts, open every day, for one train per day except one day when there are none.

 

[gmushial]

<snip>

I'd argue that travel / tourism is indeed one of the largest industries, revenue generators and employers in the US and Canada. With all the spin offs, hotels, convention centers, event planners, car rentals, taxis, restaurants, entertainment, gas stations, speeding tickets, etc. that the tax revenue alone must be staggering.

Facilitating tourism is an Amtrak function not always acknowledged when considering the value of providing subsidies..Amtrak is not just about moving Americans from point A to point B for business, student travel or visiting family or friends, it is also about tourists from America and around the world. Every tourist they move spends substantial amounts for things noted above. As a small example, I take Amtrak to vacation (often New Orleans from Toronto) once or twice a year for two to three weeks and drop about 3K into the US economy, more if a friend comes with me. Tourism is big bucks and Amtrak long distance trains are a part of it.

Gord

An interesting and quite cogent point, one that seems to have gone under the radar for some time... here the debates seem to have been about the virtues of trains vs cars or busses. Hopefully Amtrak might be able to make such an argument when they go before the Congressthingies [and if they could be so bothered as to actually listen].

 

[Nathanael]

As has been noted before, Amtrak trains are often late. At a location like Pittsburgh, this means that you probably want to open up the ticket office by at least 6 PM (2 hours before the first scheduled arrival), but you may want to keep the office open 5 or 6 hours after the last scheduled departure in case of delays (say, noon), and at this point you're into three shifts already, and the marketing benefit of keeping it open all the time starts to outweigh any benefits of closing it...

Houston? Well, the further problem there is that the Sunset Limited isn't daily. Isn't that the problem? Amtrak has agreed that three a week needs to go away.

At these big city stations, you can look at it this way: their staffing is just about right, except that they need to be running more trains.

 

[VentureForth]

Houston? Well, the further problem there is that the Sunset Limited isn't daily. Isn't that the problem? Amtrak has agreed that three a week needs to go away.

At these big city stations, you can look at it this way: their staffing is just about right, except that they need to be running more trains.

I won't argue that. My main point is that because Houston has a pretty large ridership, they need baggage service. To offer baggage service, they need to have a staffed station. To have a staffed station, they need full time employees. Since they have to have enough coverage for full time employees for vacations, days off, etc., they have probably at least 4 or 5 full time staff at the station. The real tragedy is because of late trains how much OVERTIME these underworked employees are cashing in on.

 

[Ryan]

As I've already pointed out to you earlier in the thread, you should make sure that your anit-union rants are a little more fact based. The Sunset Limited's timekeeping at Houston isn't all that bad.

Now, when was the last time the Sunset Limited was on time departing from HOU?

Last night?
80% of the time this year?

I'd say they've got the hours set just about right.

Amtrak: 1

Random dude on the internet: 0

 

[VentureForth]

Random dude on the internet: 9/29/13, #2 Departed: 3 hours and 6 minutes late. OTP 8/2013: 69.2% Last 12 months: 76.0%. Hardly 80%. Heck, 80% is GOOD? That means 20% of the time, OT is paid.

My "rants" are hardly anti union. But it is because of union rules why there is labor that is in excess of productivity.

 

[Ryan]

That's endpoint on time percentage, which means exactly nothing to Houston (it not being an endpoint and all).

My numbers are actually based on the train's timekeeping in Houston, and since the majority of the delays are in the <1 hour bucket, there isn't actually much OT at all.

 

[VentureForth]

That's funny - most OTP at endpoints generally are BETTER than midpoints because of the excessive amount of padding. Want real route performance numbers? Get someone to compile OTP at the next to last stop on a line.

Just 'cause you have a knack to state something with authority and confidence doesn't make it right.

 

[Ryan]

My numbers are based on actual reported times for the train AT HOUSTON, based on the data archived at John's Amtrak Status Maps site.

I can state them with confidence because I calculated them myself, based on the raw data available, for the actual station in question.

I can compile stats for any station along the line. Why run the numbers for Schreiver or Pomona when we care about Houston.

Before you decide to play know it all, make sure you actually know what you're talking about.