Amtrak Cascades to Vancouver

[jmbgeg]

Washington state working to keep second Amtrak Cascades train service to Vancouver, B.C.

Canadian federal government imposes nearly $550,000 in annual fees for border-clearance services

OLYMPIA – The Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) said today it and members of Congress are having discussions with British Columbia officials about Canada’s decision to impose border fees that will force the cancellation of the second daily Amtrak Cascades train to Vancouver, B.C.

The Canadian federal government late last week said it would require WSDOT to pay nearly $550,000 a year for border-clearance services. This money would cover additional staffing by the Canada Border Services Agency for the 10:50 p.m. second-train arrival.

“British Columbia and Washington are so disappointed by this news,” said Washington Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond. “The economic benefits for Vancouver and Washington are clear as travelers shop, eat and stay in local hotels. The second train has brought an estimated $11.8 million in economic benefits to British Columbia during the year it has been allowed to operate. Does it really make sense for $550,000 in annual border inspection fees to be the reason the service ends?”

“We proved that the ridership demand was there, during the Olympics and after,” Hammond said. “We have no money to cover this added cost and we will not ask Washington travelers to pay more for their tickets, when customers traveling into Washington don’t have to pay a U.S. customs fee.”

The Canadian government decided that the additional fee is necessary because of fiscal concerns. It did so after reviewing the pilot program over the past year and considering the staffing costs for the late evening arrival of the second Amtrak Cascades train into Vancouver, B.C.

"I am extremely disappointed that Canada has taken this counterproductive and harmful action against Washington state passengers," said U.S. Sen. Patty Murray. "This new fee will hurt our state and it will reduce cross-border economic activity that helps both countries. I will be monitoring this situation closely and I urge Canada to reconsider this decision."

Congressman Rick Larsen, 2nd Congressional District, said the second Amtrak Cascades train offers a clear economic benefit for communities on both sides of the border. “I urge the Canadian government to work with Washington so this service can continue to help enhance cross-border travel for people traveling and commuting in this region.”

“I am very disappointed to hear about this lack of commitment from the Canadian federal government,” said State Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, chair of the Senate Transportation Committee. “Washington has made investing in passenger rail service a top priority, but we need support from our neighbors to continue this valuable transportation option that connects our two countries. We will be reaching out to our congressional delegation urging their support in resolving this issue between the U.S. and Canadian governments.”

“The second train service to Vancouver, B.C., is an important transportation resource and I am saddened that the Canadian government has decided to impose this added fee,” said State Rep. Judy Clibborn, chair of the House Transportation Committee. “Washington has sponsored Amtrak Cascades for over 15 years and it’s time our neighbors helped support this service that brings in tourism and business to their province.”

The second Amtrak Cascades train service has been operating as a pilot project since Aug. 19, 2009, while the Canadian government evaluated the level of incoming traffic to Vancouver and whether additional fees would be necessary for ongoing customs services. After the 2010 Winter Olympics in British Columbia in March, the trial period was extended through Sept. 30 to provide additional time to assess the second-train service.

Total ridership on the second Amtrak Cascades train between Portland and Vancouver has grown steadily in the first year of operation, carrying nearly 245,000 passengers. Of these, 26,837 have traveled across the U.S./Canadian border into Vancouver, B.C.

Service by the second train to Vancouver has been extended through Oct. 31 and reservations can now be made for travel through that date.

Amtrak Cascades operates three daily round trips between Portland and Seattle; one daily round trip between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., and one between Portland and Vancouver, B.C.; and daily service between Eugene and Seattle, via Portland. Amtrak Cascades is operated by Amtrak in partnership with the Washington and Oregon Departments of Transportation. For Amtrak Cascades fares and schedules, visit AmtrakCascades.com.

 

[the_traveler]

That is clearly blackmail!

Should Amtrak or WSDOT have to pay for Americans entering Canada? Maybe (and that's a BIG maybe!) Should Amtrak or WSDOT have to pay the Canadian Government to clear CANADIAN citizens returning home? NO WAY!

 

[jmbgeg]

That is clearly blackmail!

Should Amtrak or WSDOT have to pay for Americans entering Canada? Maybe (and that's a BIG maybe!) Should Amtrak or WSDOT have to pay the Canadian Government to clear CANADIAN citizens returning home? NO WAY!

In continuing your thought, it would be interesting to know how many of the northbound passengers are returning Canadians and how many are are visitors.

It has been a long time since I have flown into Vancouver. Are there any entry fees at the YVR airport? Conversely, are the U.S. airlines charged similarly to how they propose to charge Amtrak/WSDOT?

The $550,000 charge would equate to about $20 per northbound passenger based upon all northbound passengers. If you assume that thee fee is to pay only for customs service for the second train and that the second train carries half the passengers, then it is about $40 per passenger. Really? Is that the incremental cost?

Canada has a goods and services tax of 5%. If one assumes that Amtrak/WSDOT ceased Vancouver operations, what would the economic impact be on GST?

 

[zephyr17]

That is clearly blackmail!

Should Amtrak or WSDOT have to pay for Americans entering Canada? Maybe (and that's a BIG maybe!) Should Amtrak or WSDOT have to pay the Canadian Government to clear CANADIAN citizens returning home? NO WAY!

In continuing your thought, it would be interesting to know how many of the northbound passengers are returning Canadians and how many are are visitors.

It has been a long time since I have flown into Vancouver. Are there any entry fees at the YVR airport? Conversely, are the U.S. airlines charged similarly to how they propose to charge Amtrak/WSDOT?

The $550,000 charge would equate to about $20 per northbound passenger based upon all northbound passengers. If you assume that thee fee is to pay only for customs service for the second train and that the second train carries half the passengers, then it is about $40 per passenger. Really? Is that the incremental cost?

Canada has a goods and services tax of 5%. If one assumes that Amtrak/WSDOT ceased Vancouver operations, what would the economic impact be on GST?

Canada doesn't charge and entry fee at YVR or any other airport. It also charges no fee for the original train (510-517)and I understand there are no plans to start. This is ridiculous and only applies to this one service. And, as a Washington taxpayer, Washington helped pay for track improvements NORTH of the border in BC (the Colebrook siding) to enable the second train. So my money went for nothing. By the way, the British Columbia provincial government strongly supports the train and is not at all happy with their federal government's CBSA and this fee.

 

[Cascadia]

You are lightning fast! Just saw that in my inbox and was just coming here to post it

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2010/09/092010_2ndtrainfeeimposed.htm

I think this is a ludicrous situation, the schedule of the second train clearly benefits Canadian citizens more than Americans, they can leave Vancouver in the morning, and return at night.

Also this once more reveals the way the Canadian government pays lip service to every feel-good cause like "green initiatives", mass transit that serves their citizens and take pressure off "the environment" etc., everything painted in pictures to make Canada look good, but when push comes to shove - this is what you get.

But they'll keep talking all the good lines and everyone will keep eating it up, and I will cut my rant off here . .

 

[Cascadia]

You know, I really thought this was a done deal, because of the beautiful remodeling job they just did on the customs processing area in Pacific Central Station. The agents have all new workstations which look a lot more sensible than the old ones they had - they can face the incoming passengers both when boarding and on arrival. Before, they didn't face anyone.

I didn't think they would spend the money to upgrade the receiving area for one arrival and one departure a day.

 

[Cascadia]

It's official: My Canadian boyfriend says he just saw on the news that the second train service to Vancouver is cancelled. Dang that does seem lame.

 

[frugalist]

The posts in this thread keep talking about "the second train." What train numbers are we talking about?

 

[Trogdor]

It's official: My Canadian boyfriend says he just saw on the news that the second train service to Vancouver is cancelled. Dang that does seem lame.

It's not canceled yet. It's running through October 31 (which is a one-month extension from its previous date of September 30).

In fact, all the news I see makes it quite clear that folks in WA and BC are trying to either change CBSA's mind, or locate the funding somehow to pay the fee (BC is considering paying the cost, since they get much of the economic benefit of the train).

 

[Cascadia]

The posts in this thread keep talking about "the second train." What train numbers are we talking about?

Trains number 516 and 513, currently running from PDX to VAC and back.

516 used to spend the night in Bellingham, WA (BEL) and head south as 513 in the morning.

Now it spends the night in Vancouver, BC.

It is a good schedule for a Canadian traveling to visit the states, because they can leave in the morning and come back at night, it gets into Vancouver kind of late for someone who is going there to visit, but it's great for returning home, you have people there who can pick you up if you live there.

It hasn't been super helpful to me as a frequent visitor to Canada, as I would have to take cabs instead of busing it if I left at the 6:40 a.m. departure in Vancouver, or if I arrived there in the late evening. I try to avoid taking cabs as it really adds to the cost of the trip - am going to have change the way I normally do things because we just lost Sunday bus service here in Bellingham as of this week.

 

[alanh]

It's also helpful for someone wanting to take the train from Portland to Vancouver. The only other same-day trips use a bus Seattle-Vancouver.

 

[Cascadia]

It's also helpful for someone wanting to take the train from Portland to Vancouver. The only other same-day trips use a bus Seattle-Vancouver.

Good point, last time I was at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver, I talked to a guy who had made a reservation to do just that. We got to talking and I went and grabbed a timetable and showed him that his booking was for that bus connection and then the train. He didn't know there could be such a thing as a bus.

He was going to call and change it, and to be honest it never occurred to me that it could be because that service could be discontinued. In my mind seeing the remodeling on the customs processing area clinched it that it would be continued (silly assumption on my part I guess). His trip was about a month out, I wonder if they were even showing the all-train option when he booked it? It never crossed my mind that it wouldn't be. I guess I wasn't thinking too hard.

Hope they get this situation figured out. British Columbia is not too happy with the Canadian Federal Government right now, I am sure of that.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Hey, Cascadia, stop harping on Canada's government. They are merely just as dysfunctional as our own.

 

[varnish]

Hi,

This all boils down to ''power hungry-ego tripping'' stick swinging. The CBSA loves the feeling of the power they can weild here....Hundreds of transborder flights, a large number of bus coach crossing various borders, thousands of vehicle going thru the same numerous borders, and three Amtrak trains ALL get processed by the CBSA daily accross Canada...... ( Canadian citizens returning home and countless tourists entering Canada)and they'll raise the big power stick for O N E PUNY LITTLE TRAIN ?? Something is obviously warped with that picture.....but then, we're dealing with bureaucracy here....what else is new ??

Try to explain to any given airline with transborder service that they will now be charged $xx.xx/per passenger to be cleared into Canada or CBSA won't process them !!!

I've seen what ''power hunger'' can do to some brains...but this takes the top spot....

Rant ended.

Back to reality ( and rant soon to resume again...)

Cheers

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Hey, Cascadia, stop harping on Canada's government. They are merely just as dysfunctional as our own.

hey GML why shouldn't we harp on the Canadian government? After all they're the ones charging half a million dollars for the 2nd train. The boarder service is clearly ANTI-RAIL. They are also making maple leaf passengers get off the train and stand outside no matter what the weather. Those boarder agents are just lazy a$$es who don't want to work.

 

[VentureForth]

US is paying for US Customs and Canada should be paying for Canadian Customs. The issue, I guess, is that unlike airlines or bus services which has a huge concentration of border crossers and thus agents, the train requires that a certain number of employees be hired just for that service. Basically, you're hiring 5 or so people to process 75 more people a day. In the airlines and road crossings, they just make you wait in line longer.

That being said, I read that the economic impact of the 2nd train was close to $11 Billion. That would mean approximately $400 being spent by everyone coming over by train - if they were all Americans shopping, and not Canadians returning home.

 

[Cascadia]

US is paying for US Customs and Canada should be paying for Canadian Customs. The issue, I guess, is that unlike airlines or bus services which has a huge concentration of border crossers and thus agents, the train requires that a certain number of employees be hired just for that service. Basically, you're hiring 5 or so people to process 75 more people a day. In the airlines and road crossings, they just make you wait in line longer.

That being said, I read that the economic impact of the 2nd train was close to $11 Billion. That would mean approximately $400 being spent by everyone coming over by train - if they were all Americans shopping, and not Canadians returning home.

They bring the agents from the airport to inspect the train passengers. I'm trying to think more now how this works. They only need Canadian agents for the ARRIVAL of the train from the US. So there's the one that gets there at 11:40 a.m which is already taken care of all along, and now the additional arrival in the late evening (10:30?) that has been happening since last fall I guess. They do Canadian customs and immigration inspection for the arrival of those two trains.

The departures, one in the morning and one in the late afternoon, are handled by US Immigration, where people's immigration and visa status is checked, then the Customs portion of the US inspection is handled onboard at the border in Blaine.

400.00 seems high, and who knows how they came up with that 11 billion figure, but a lot of people heading up to Canada are traveling on - there sure were a lot of passengers coming and going from Alaska cruises lately! A nice combination to take the train to the cruise! Seems to be very popular and was filling up some of the trains. Of course the season's over now.

But if someone took Amtrak to go take a VIA rail trip, now that would up the average of $$$$ spent per passenger quite a bit, wouldn't it! If two people took the train and then the bus/ferry to Victoria for a weekend, they easily spent 400.00 without trying too hard.

Sorry I am kind of rambling - need more coffee!

 

[Cascadia]

Hey, Cascadia, stop harping on Canada's government. They are merely just as dysfunctional as our own.

<3 Hi GML. I only bash Canada's government because some people have this grass-is-greener image of Canada, like everything is so much better and more ideal there, where everyone is free and they have good government. Plus Canada really pumps out the propaganda/PR/lipservice about every worthy cause, and engages in a lot of self-congratulatory back-patting about how different they are than every other country, and people lap it up. My boyfriend has worked for the provincial government for 35 years, so with that window on operations plus a lot of other reading I do, I do get an a good rant once in a while LOL.

But don't get me wrong! I am not singling Canada out! I can get on just as big a roll about ours, have no doubts!

<3

 

[jimhudson]

:hi: Nice post re Canada! Beautiful scenery and everyone has Health care! Imagine! How Socialistic is that! Beautiful scenery and wonderful people, :wub: a Government just like all Western Democracies for sure! My late wife was Canadian, I have lived and visited many times, have lots of relatives and friends there, they all agree with you even the most liberal and progressive! (My late wife was NDP/Green!!!)

 

[Trogdor]

All the articles I've seen indicate that the economic contribution of the second train was $11 million, which is quite a ways from $11 billion.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

hey GML why shouldn't we harp on the Canadian government? After all they're the ones charging half a million dollars for the 2nd train. The boarder service is clearly ANTI-RAIL. They are also making maple leaf passengers get off the train and stand outside no matter what the weather. Those boarder agents are just lazy a$$es who don't want to work.

*sigh*

We are currently singled on one particular issue that affects us train folks deeply and personally. Trust me, however. There is this kind of buffoonery by both governments going on all the time. Nobody cares about them here because they don't affect us.

I ain't saying Canada is great and the U.S. isn't. They are both equally ridiculous.

 

[Cascadia]

All the articles I've seen indicate that the economic contribution of the second train was $11 million, which is quite a ways from $11 billion.

Venture Forth said "billion" in this thread (typo?) and then I repeated it without paying any attention (whoops!), here is the paragraph from the original post with the WA DOT statement, indeed it was million NOT billion:

"“British Columbia and Washington are so disappointed by this news,” said Washington Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond. “The economic benefits for Vancouver and Washington are clear as travelers shop, eat and stay in local hotels. The second train has brought an estimated $11.8 million in economic benefits to British Columbia during the year it has been allowed to operate. Does it really make sense for $550,000 in annual border inspection fees to be the reason the service ends?”"