Amtrak confirms new sleepers, baggages, diners will be Viewliners

[printman2000]

This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!

 

[Walt]

Can anybody confirm that the new viewliners will have one large window similar to the same size as the current small ones put together? Looking out of the Viewliner backing in next to Superliners, the windows on the Superliners seemed to be as tall as both on the Viewliners put together.

Possibly, I am just misunderstanding your comment. I don't think that, for example, the Superliner's one roomette window is bigger than the two Viewliner roomette windows put together. I mean, the Superliner's upper bunk doesn't have any "window" whereas the Viewliner's upper bunk has it own, full, window.

 

[had8ley]

This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!

You think today's trains are hodgepodge?~ you should have seen the consists when Amtrak took over. The home roads consists stayed about the same until the summer of Amtrak's birth. Then we got the "circus trains." Black PC E-8's, UP armor yellow; BN green, MOP blue and every other participating road's color scheme which was all Class 1's save for about three. And that was just the engines. What followed behind in revenue service you would need a 64 pack of crayola crayons to draw a picture of. It took Amtrak a while to catch up in painting and it was not unusual to see just an Amtrak decal with a new car/engine number and the old home road name painted over. The best part of the transition was the fact that Amtrak kept many of the OBS crews and contracted with the home roads for train crews.

 

[printman2000]

This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!

You think today's trains are hodgepodge?~ you should have seen the consists when Amtrak took over. The home roads consists stayed about the same until the summer of Amtrak's birth. Then we got the "circus trains." Black PC E-8's, UP armor yellow; BN green, MOP blue and every other participating road's color scheme which was all Class 1's save for about three. And that was just the engines. What followed behind in revenue service you would need a 64 pack of crayola crayons to draw a picture of. It took Amtrak a while to catch up in painting and it was not unusual to see just an Amtrak decal with a new car/engine number and the old home road name painted over. The best part of the transition was the fact that Amtrak kept many of the OBS crews and contracted with the home roads for train crews.

Those were the days! At least all the cars were pretty much the same shape! The Amfleets tube look is what I dislike so much, which is what I was referring to.

 

[wayman]

This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!

You think today's trains are hodgepodge?~ you should have seen the consists when Amtrak took over.

For instance,

This page has lots of great photos of Amtrak 1971-1975.

 

[jis]

OK, I was at the ESPA/NARP New York meeting in Schenectady yesterday. Joe Boardman was supposed to come to it, but canceled at the last moment because he is preoccupied with his staff this weekend preparing final proposals on how the Stimulus money is going to be used by Amtrak. He sent the Amtrak Albany District Superindendant to present the slides that he was going to use in his talk. Here is what I could scribble down quickly from the slides and from Q&A that followed:

Since this thread is focused on equipment I will focus on that here, and post a separate thread on New York state specific stuff.

There was a slide in the presentation which gave the following numbers for things that will be ordered in the near future:

• Equipment to be ordered
  
• 60 Electric Locomotives for $540 million
  
• 25 Dining Cars for $87.5 million
  
• 25 Sleepers for $87.5 million
  
• 75 Baggage Cars for $150 million
  
• 130 Corridor Bilevels Cars for $500 million
  

In the Q&A we learned the following:

1. The Viewliner Sleepers will be very close to the current design, mostly just removing known problems. This in the interest of not delaying the order that would be inevitable if significant redesign was done. The Sleeper situation is only slightly less desperate than the Diner situation given how much potential ridership is currently being turned away
 
2. The Dining cars will use Viewliner shells
 
3. The Bilevel Corridor Cars are Superliner/Surfliner-like cars for use in Midwestern Corridors. Their induction will release the cars that are currently being used there - both LD Superliners and Amfleet/Horizon for use elsewhere. Also they will alleviate winter issues with the single level cars around Chicago. Also these cars will be usable in LD trains for short distance passengers.
 
4. The Baggage Cars appear to be really baggage cars. Couldn't quite get a straight answer on whether they will be Baggage-Dorm cars, but my presumption now is that they are not.
 
5. The earliest that we will see any of the new cars is at least 2 years out.
 
6. The first and immediate thing to do with stimulus money is to get all stored and serviceable equipment out back on the rails into revenue service ASAP. This applies to both single and bi-level equipment. Could not get any specific numbers from them though. Too bad Boardman could not make it, since I think he might have had more specifics.
 
7. Couldn't get any specifics on the Electric Engines. The money allocated seems a little low for that number given what folks in the real world are paying for such things. For example NJT is paying considerably more per-unit for the ALP-46A which perfectly matches Amtrak's operational requirements on the NEC. You can see the spec sheet
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/ALP-46A_10289_LOC_Sept08_en.pdfhere
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/ALP-46A_10289_LOC_Sept08_en.pdf.
 
8. Someone asked about whether Amtrak is looking into using dual-mode catenary/diesel units that NJT and AMT have ordered together with additional cab cars as a solution to the Springfield corridor and Richmond service. There was no comment in response. You can see the spec sheet of this interesting locomotive
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/DualPower_10290_LOC_Sept08_en.pdfhere
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/DualPower_10290_LOC_Sept08_en.pdf.
 
9. And yes, Amtrak is specing out a standard Coach for use across the board by transit agencies. Again did not have time to get answer to my question about whether they were looking at two standard designs one for full height bi-level and the other for short-height-multi-level/single-level for east coast areas.
In addition to these a lot of time was spent on service quality improvement issues including new statutory requirements that have been placed on the STB, freight railroads and Amtrak on the issue of passenger train delay reduction in PRIIA. Apparently the act has put in some very significant legal teeth to make things happen. Things like STB is now almost required to take punitive action against a host railroad that is unable to operate an Amtrak train at 80% or better OTP for two consecutive quarters absent any force majeur or a previously negotiated variance from STB.

Two things that caught my attention in the vision portion of the presentation were:

1. Debt Restructuring - This apparently is a big issue with Boardman, which is refreshing to see.
 
2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations. There was a short discussion about what is being done in this area in other countries. From my perspective India was mentioned where fully electrified freight corridors are being built with catenary height of 24+ feet. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere. No reason it can't be done here
But I digress. The rest in a separate writeup under a different thread.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations. There was a short discussion about what is being done in this area in other countries. From my perspective India was mentioned where fully electrified freight corridors are being built with catenary height of 24+ feet. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere. No reason it can't be done here

Was anything said about how quickly this could be done to address the Springfield and Virginia issues without needing diesel prime movers in the electric locomotives?

 

[printman2000]

$2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.

 

[wayman]

2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations. There was a short discussion about what is being done in this area in other countries. From my perspective India was mentioned where fully electrified freight corridors are being built with catenary height of 24+ feet. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere. No reason it can't be done here

Was anything said about how quickly this could be done to address the Springfield and Virginia issues without needing diesel prime movers in the electric locomotives?

The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.

 

[wayman]

$2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.

I imagine most of the cost is the frame, body, trucks, brakes, and HEP couplings, which are the same regardless of car type. Window glass and seats and interior walls and carpets can't be more than half the cost of a sleeper, and given the numbers above, they're apparently slightly less than half the cost of the sleeper, which is about what I'd expect.

EDIT: whoops, forgot about the working coffee pots (since they said they'd be fixing known design issues with the Viewliner sleepers). That must account for at least a few hundred thousand of the cost per sleeper

 

[Rafi]

FWIW, our Amtrak rep at the VARP meeting did say that Richmond-DC electrification is now starting to get a more serious look and will probably be the first leg of the southeast high speed rail initiative (which traverses the S line through NC then heads down to Charlotte and Atlanta). He didn't go into much more detail than that, but the mention was made when someone asked the progress of high speed rail initiatives in the state. That said, my impression is that CSX traffic constraints and getting the service up to 110 MPH is taking a much higher priority today.

Rafi

 

[printman2000]

$2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.

I imagine most of the cost is the frame, body, trucks, brakes, and HEP couplings, which are the same regardless of car type. Window glass and seats and interior walls and carpets can't be more than half the cost of a sleeper, and given the numbers above, they're apparently slightly less than half the cost of the sleeper, which is about what I'd expect.

EDIT: whoops, forgot about the working coffee pots (since they said they'd be fixing known design issues with the Viewliner sleepers). That might add a few hundred thousand to the cost per car

Actually, the baggage ar $2 million, sleepers and diners are $3.5 million. That is more than half. Unless my math is off.

 

[wayman]

$2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.

I imagine most of the cost is the frame, body, trucks, brakes, and HEP couplings, which are the same regardless of car type. Window glass and seats and interior walls and carpets can't be more than half the cost of a sleeper, and given the numbers above, they're apparently slightly less than half the cost of the sleeper, which is about what I'd expect.

EDIT: whoops, forgot about the working coffee pots (since they said they'd be fixing known design issues with the Viewliner sleepers). That might add a few hundred thousand to the cost per car

Actually, the baggage ar $2 million, sleepers and diners are $3.5 million. That is more than half. Unless my math is off.

I was figuring that the baggage car has basically zero cost beyond frame, body, trucks, brakes, and HEP since it's pretty much an empty shell. So if we assume $2 million pays for all of that, then $1.5 million pays for the entire interior and additional infrastucture (eg, water, waste) of a diner or sleeper. And the $1.5 million interior cost is less than half the $3.5 total cost of the car.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.

There's no freight traffic on the line that we want to make stop consuming foreign petroleum?

 

[wayman]

The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.

There's no freight traffic on the line that we want to make stop consuming foreign petroleum?

I'm pretty sure most of the freight traffic on that line doesn't terminate or change crews in Lynchburg; making Lynchburg an engine change point for everything would be a huge operations investment for NS, not to mention the cost of investing in a fleet of electric power, etc.

 

[Rafi]

Electrification of freight corridors is a topic that is not lost in Virginia. See RAIL Solution, which has been making headway with NS as of late.

Rafi

 

[jis]

2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations.

Was anything said about how quickly this could be done to address the Springfield and Virginia issues without needing diesel prime movers in the electric locomotives?

No. As I said it was in the "Vision" section of the talk. That is articulation of the general direction that they want to go, but no immediate specifics.

 

[sportbiker]

Amtrak has taken the Surfliner configuration and standardized it as the model that is presented to states who need a starting point when deciding what to order.

Did he really say Surfliners? I'd expect that they'd start from the newer and slightly more generic California Cars.

Cailifornia Car is the first-generation coach that was built by Morrison Knudson. Surfliner is the second-generation coach built by Alstom.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Viewliners? Sounds like they're going to spend all this money on the northeast corridor. :angry:

Dude, there are a lot less problems with Superliner capacity than there are with Viewliner capacity. I mean, I admit we could use some more Superliners, too, but the Viewliner is case critical. Trains going out without their full load of sleepers is becoming far too common, the diner situation is insanely critical, and the baggage situation applies to the whole system.

Great announcement!

All Heritage equipment should be completely phased out once the new Viewliner order is filled. As new coach cars come online, Amfleets will begin to replace Horizon rolling stock.

This is the only thing that concerns me. Yes, we have a need to update the equipment, but we also have a tremendous need for new equipment. If Horizon rolling stock is still in usable condition, why not continue to use it and use the equipment to add needed services rather than just mothball them?

Amtrak is consistently short equipment, and this is a perfect opportunity to expand services!

Or am I missing something here?

The Horizons are junk, Jackal. They are commuter coaches, and should be used as such. They'll probably be relegated to services like the Hiawatha, if they aren't sold to starting commuter railroads outright.

Again let me stress that nothing is official yet, even Rafi's news isn't a done deal. Amtrak is heading that one, but no contract has been singed and no monies have actually been paid for anything.
But that said, all indications that I've seen are for 75 new baggage cars that will double as both a baggage car and a crew dorm. This will allow the existing Superliner Trans/Dorms to become full passenger sleepers. No word if they will receive family rooms or bedrooms, or just retain the current configurations. But it will open up more sleeper compartments regardless.

Amtrak hopes to order 25 Viewliner sleepers, to beef up the fleet in the east. That most likely will lead to retoration of the overnight sleeper between Boston and DC, perhaps a daily Cardinal, a third sleeper for the Crescent and the Star, as well as a few more spares.

And of course they are looking for new dining cars to replace all the single level Heritage dining cars, as well as to restore a dining car on the LSL. No idea on whether the Card might see a real diner or not.

Right now the single level fleet is the top priority for Amtrak overall, as the current baggage cars are failing (and that does affect the bi-level trains too), the Heritage dining cars are in dire need of replacement, and the current Viewliner sleeper fleet is stretched beyond its limits.

All I do is hope and pray that the Broadway Limited comes back. And maybe a Silver Palm.

 

[AlanB]

how about with the new dining cars they bring back REAL dining service like better service and food.

I have no problem with increasing the staffing in the cars and perhaps bringing back real tablecloths and glass plates. But IMHO there is no reason to go back to the inferior food of the past 5 or 6 years, when the current food being served in the dining cars since last October is so much better and even more importantly, consistant.

 

[AlanB]

Great announcement!

All Heritage equipment should be completely phased out once the new Viewliner order is filled. As new coach cars come online, Amfleets will begin to replace Horizon rolling stock.

This is the only thing that concerns me. Yes, we have a need to update the equipment, but we also have a tremendous need for new equipment. If Horizon rolling stock is still in usable condition, why not continue to use it and use the equipment to add needed services rather than just mothball them?

Amtrak is consistently short equipment, and this is a perfect opportunity to expand services!

Or am I missing something here?

The Horizons are junk, Jackal. They are commuter coaches, and should be used as such. They'll probably be relegated to services like the Hiawatha, if they aren't sold to starting commuter railroads outright.

Considering that the Hiawatha corridor is the busiest out of Chicago, they'll probably be the first to get the bi-levels so as to increase capacity. Of course that will kill the cart service currently in use, so hopefully they'll get a cafe car.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Considering that the Hiawatha corridor is the busiest out of Chicago, they'll probably be the first to get the bi-levels so as to increase capacity. Of course that will kill the cart service currently in use, so hopefully they'll get a cafe car.

How long are the current Hiawatha trainsets? I might be misremembering, but I thought I'd heard something last summer about how they'd recently added a third coach or something like that. If the trainsets are just a P42 and three coaches and a cabbage, I'm not sure there's much need to switch to bi-level cars.

 

[AlanB]

Considering that the Hiawatha corridor is the busiest out of Chicago, they'll probably be the first to get the bi-levels so as to increase capacity. Of course that will kill the cart service currently in use, so hopefully they'll get a cafe car.

How long are the current Hiawatha trainsets? I might be misremembering, but I thought I'd heard something last summer about how they'd recently added a third coach or something like that. If the trainsets are just a P42 and three coaches and a cabbage, I'm not sure there's much need to switch to bi-level cars.

Hiawatha's run with either 5 or 6 cars.

 

[jis]

The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.

At least in my posting on this subject, when I stated "Virginia" I had Richmond in mind, which I believe is also in Viriginia unless I got my geography all mixed up again The mention of electrification in Virginia generally is with reference to the Southeast high Speed Corridor, which passes through Richmond, Petersburg, Norlina, Raleigh.

 

[Tony]

EDIT: whoops, forgot about the working coffee pots (since they said they'd be fixing known design issues with the Viewliner sleepers). That must account for at least a few hundred thousand of the cost per sleeper

The Viewliner coffee pots have always been a favorite example of mine.

These are commercial grade coffee makers, and while sleeper passengers help themselves to the coffee, it is the "trained" attendants who actually make the coffee. Therefore, I can't understand why it is so very difficult for Amtrak to keep these coffee makers working!

I do indeed like the Viewliner design. I sure hope Amtrak leaves it basically intact, and focuses on only the quality and durability of the materials used, for "fit and finish", for any of their changes.