Amtrak confirms new sleepers, baggages, diners will be Viewliners

[frj1983]

I believe that a few years ago, FEC was open to letting Amtrak run some passenger trains on it's route. But FEC was recently purchased by RailAmerica and I'm not sure how open that corporation would be to passenger trains now?? It may now be a lost cause. :huh:

For suitable amount of monetary contribution to add necessary sidings I am sure they will still be quite open. They are already in negotiations with Tri-Rail for service south of Jupiter anyway.

Well..I stand corrected! :blink:

 

[Steve4031]

What is the top speed for the california/surfliner cars? It would seem to me that the 130 new bi-levels for corridors service should be built for a top speed of 125 mph. To do otherwise would not makes sense.

As far as the FEC line, this would be a prime candidate for start up of a high speed corridor in Florida. With the population base that was described, this would be a no brainer. Additionally, I support a third full service long distance train between NYC and Florida operating along the FEC in addition to the corridor type service on the FEC.

If they really wanted to get going with high speed rail, they would have all passenger trains operate on the FEC bewtween Jacksonville and Daytona, and then have a line branch off to serve Orlando and Tampa. There should be a line from Tampa to Orlando area, and Miami.

The other thought, have a station that would actually serve Disney World. It should be south of the current location near Universal Studio's and Disney world. With frequent light rail service between the station and disneyworld and Universal Studio. This station should be connected to the Daytona-Orlando-Tampa line and the Tampa Orlando Miami line.

I know that this does not reflect the current rail infrastructure, but where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

re Florida routes;

Tri-Rail commuter trains currently cover West Palm to south of Miami Amtrak, using the same tracks and stations, as Amtrak, except that Amtrak Miami is a "dead end" station that Tri-Rail does not serve. All other Amtrak stops from West Palm south are both Amtrak and Tri-Rail station stops, and Tri-Rail has a number of additional station stops that Amtrak does NOT use as station stops. A JAX - West Palm (or JAX - MIA) Amtrak service using the FEC would be a very good thing to start, to serve the Florida east coast, connecting at West Palm with the Silver Service trains to/from MIA or to go all the way to MIA, and at JAX with Silver Service trains. It might also be enough to get Amtrak off it's "on the fence" position on NOL-JAX, suspended after the hurricane hit NOL, and would provide expedited MIA-NOL service compared to having the JAX connection with current Silver Service trains that run through interior Florida. And at that point it would probably make sense to extend Palmetto to JAX instead of terminating at SAV, and perhaps try to make a reasonably short layover between that and the FEC-based train. An FEC-based train should be able to connect JAX with West Palm (and therefore the entire West-Palm - MIA corridor by connecting with Silver Service or Tri-Rail) in significantly less time than it currently takes for the Star or Meteor to go Jax-MIA on the inland route. The question is whether to have the new service terminate at West Palm, which has no Amtrak servicing facilities or crewbase, or to have it continue to MIA. Servicing and crewbase argue for a MIA termination, while added congestion with existing rail service, freight, Tr-Rail commuter, and Amtrak Silver Service would argue for a West Palm termination, and possibly a Jupiter termination when Tri-Rail expansion to Jupiter is operational. On the other hand, Tri-Rail is really not set up to handle baggage, which would be necessary for the Amtrak pax.

As an aside, re Disney, Disney had wanted a rail system built from MCO (Orlando Int'l airport) through to Disney. That may or may not happen. It would be a boon to Disney and it's employees to have some sort of connection from Disney to the planned Commuter Rail, and I would expect that to eventually happen. As it stands, however, the commuter service will use the existing A-Line, which is east of I-4. If (and I expect they will ) they build a commuter station between Kissimmee and Orlando, Disney would undoubtedly run a bus connex to it's Park properties. Right now, four Amtrak Stations are part of the commuter rail plan - Deland, Winter Park, Orlando, and Kissimmee. The total build-out will have 17 station stops on the commuter system ('SunRail').

Here is a link to their current planning PDF: http://www.sunrail.com/Files/Brochures/Bro...QualityTime.pdf

As noted in that PDF, there is also a plan for Light Rail that would connect with the commuter system and go through the International Drive corridor south and west of Orlando and my guess is that it would eventually terminate at Disney which is on the far side of Int'l Drive from Orlando. The central point of this whole system apparently is planned to be the new Lynx (bus) multi-mode terminal recently built right along the rails through downtown Orlando with room for a large parking lot.

Anyway, if you go through that PDF, it will give you a good understanding of what is planned, rail-wise, along the S-Line and A-Line and through the Central Florida area, and any Amtrak route planning MUST take all of that into consideration. They are moving ahead with the commuter project - the land for the nearest commuter station to my home has already been purchased for that purpose, and the existing buildings razed and cleared. It will be a commuter rail station with a parking lot and a Lynx bus system connection run-through. Location is State Road 436 (Semoran Blvd) in Altamonte Springs, on the north side of S.R. 436, on the west side of the track.

 

[AlanB]

But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Lone Star, Floridian, and Spirit of California. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.

While I don't disagree that getting some of those trains you've named back would be a good thing, here's the problem with that idea and the reason to get service running on the FEC. Amtrak isn't buying Superliner styled cars, they are buying Viewliners. There is no point in just letting those cars sit around unused because we want other routes before we get the FEC running.

Now personally I think that the idea of just running one new or existing Silver train down the FEC is the wrong approach. I believe that we need a plan like we had several years back in the Network Growth Strategy plan. That being three sleeper trains to Florida that split in JAX to service the various routes. I also think that the Palmetto should be extended to JAX and terminate there.

 

[AlanB]

The other thought, have a station that would actually serve Disney World. It should be south of the current location near Universal Studio's and Disney world. With frequent light rail service between the station and disneyworld and Universal Studio. This station should be connected to the Daytona-Orlando-Tampa line and the Tampa Orlando Miami line.

Steve,

It's a wonderful idea and something that really should get done even right now. Sadly the reality is that Universal and other parks won't stand for Disney getting it's own stop, and Disney will fight any stop that might be offered to Universal, even if Disney is still getting their own stop.

And then the local NIMBY's that seem to come out of the woodwork anytime you mention the word train, will jump in with which ever side is opposing a stop and kill the project.

 

[MattW]

If you're going to run a train down FEC, why not run it through Atlanta to Chicago instead of NYP? It's a more direct route than ATL-ORL because ATL-ORL means you have to go roughly SE to JAX, then roughly SW to ORL. People could still transfer at JAX to ORL etc.

And yes, I'll grasp at any straws that could expand Amtrak service in Atlanta.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money,

You can't compare Florida and West Virginia. Florida has much less Amtrak Service than they had orginally with Amtrak. For a number of years, there were 3 daily trains from Jacksonville to Miami on Amtrak (without going through Tampa. The Silver Meteor, The Silver Star (which split at Auburndale) and the South Wind later Floridian. There were 3 daily trains from Jacksonville to Tampa and St. Petersburg. The Champion, the Silver Star and the Floridian. Even after the Champion was discontinued north of Jacksonville, a section of the Silver Meteor split from the NYC-MIA train at JAX to run to Tampa. Amtrak with CSX's encouragement has gradually whittled down the passenger service within Florida. I think the State of Florida needs to support Amtrak better with some funding much as California has. I think that may happen in the near future. Amtrak's future is serving densley populated areas all over the US.

I am pretty sure I know more about Amtrak route history than you do, since I have schedules from every single year- several from most years. I'm not talking population, because population is irrelevent to my point. Corridor trains and commuter rail is good for serving what you are talking about. Long distance trains are a whole different ball game. I agree there should be JAX-MIA and JAX-TPA corridors, and if you want to split the JAX-MIA corridors between the FEC and SAL I like it. We have a lot less trains all over the place than we did in the 70s. The North Star, Shenandoah, Hilltopper, Mountaineer, North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Broadway Limited, Floridian, Niagara Rainbow, National Limited, Blue Ridge, Champion, Arrowhead, International, Blue Water Limited, Black Hawk, and Lone Star are all gone. Florida isn't that unusual- it still has the most long-distance service of any place in the US.

But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Lone Star, Floridian, and Spirit of California. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.

While I don't disagree that getting some of those trains you've named back would be a good thing, here's the problem with that idea and the reason to get service running on the FEC. Amtrak isn't buying Superliner styled cars, they are buying Viewliners. There is no point in just letting those cars sit around unused because we want other routes before we get the FEC running.

Now personally I think that the idea of just running one new or existing Silver train down the FEC is the wrong approach. I believe that we need a plan like we had several years back in the Network Growth Strategy plan. That being three sleeper trains to Florida that split in JAX to service the various routes. I also think that the Palmetto should be extended to JAX and terminate there.

I agree with you on the Palmetto. We should run one on the S, one on the A, and if you really insist, one on the FEC. But if we have to pick between running the FEC and restoring service to Waldo, Ocala, Wildwood, and Dade City, I pick the latter.

Why can't we build a suitable sleeper out of a Surfliner shell? I mean, we'd need to get rid of one of the door pairs and eliminate one set of stairs, but seriously.

 

[Steve4031]

I am tired of NIMBY"S. I think the group of people thinking this way have really hampered growth of rail in this country.

 

[p&sr]

Florida isn't that unusual- it still has the most long-distance service of any place in the US.

More than New York City? More than Chicago? We must have a different way of counting Trains...

 

[p&sr]

I am tired of NIMBY"S. I think the group of people thinking this way have really hampered growth of rail in this country.

I agree completely. NIMBY's Not Wanted! OUT of My Backyard!

 

[PaulM]

First of all, I find it funny that the purchasing of new equipment at Amtrak is called an "Investment". But it is almost the right height for the P42 locos, so that'll make 'em look nice.

I'm no accountant; but I believe an "investment" is an expenditure for something that produces revenue over a long period, i.e, it not for something that is consumed. Certainly, passenger cars fit this definition, although the "period" may be a bit too long in th case of Amtrak cars.

 

[AlanB]

Why can't we build a suitable sleeper out of a Surfliner shell? I mean, we'd need to get rid of one of the door pairs and eliminate one set of stairs, but seriously.

I'm pretty sure that we can do just that and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that someplace at Amtrak they have such plans or maybe even Alstom has some plans for it.

However for the moment that isn't where Amtrak is planning to put its new found monies. They are putting those dollars where they need them the most, to beef up the over worked single level sleepers and diners. Maybe in a few years from now if things remain favorable we will be discussing new Western LD cars, but for the moment at least that is not the case.

Hence my point in saying that to shoot down service on the FEC for something in the west IMHO doesn't make sense. We can't easily do anything about the west right now, no matter how much we might like to, as Amtrak has committed this round of funding to the single level fleet.

Perhaps if we were to swap the Capitol from Superliner to single level, which might preclude FEC getting an LD, we could do something out west with the Capitol's Superliner cars. But I'm not sure that's a good trade off either. Especially with Amtrak coming so close to selling out the Florida trains in the sleepers year round. Seems to me that it's best to chase that certain revenue with a third LD train to Florida.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

But if we have to pick between running the FEC and restoring service to Waldo, Ocala, Wildwood, and Dade City, I pick the latter.

THOSE CITIES/TOWNS STILL HAVE SERVICE. OK, it's a bus connection. BUT THEY HAVE SERVICE. Actually I believe the University of Florida (Gainesville) has better service now, because the bus, IIRC, actually stops IN Gainesville, not out of town at Waldo where the Palm/Palmetto used to stop.

The east coast FEC route population DOES NOT have service, either rail OR a bus connection, and it's a larger population base anyway. And, again, the S-Line is going to be handling both S-Line AND A-Line CSX freight when the Orlando corridor commuter rail starts up, which would make CSX unlikely to look favorably on resuming S-Line Amtrak service.

 

[Rafi]

And, again, the S-Line is going to be handling both S-Line AND A-Line CSX freight when the Orlando corridor commuter rail starts up, which would make CSX unlikely to look favorably on resuming S-Line Amtrak service.

Correct. CSX plans to start routing a good chunk of the current A-line traffic over to the S-line when the Orlando commuter train starts running. The common knowledge out there is that CSX will push hard against a reinstatement of S-line passenger service at that point. Not saying we shouldn't have service on that line (it really stuck in my craw when the Palm stopped running that line and we have this piddly spur to Tampa now as a result), but FEC is certainly the lowest hanging fruit right now and is a sure-win for new revenue.

Rafi

 

[jis]

Why can't we build a suitable sleeper out of a Surfliner shell? I mean, we'd need to get rid of one of the door pairs and eliminate one set of stairs, but seriously.

I'm pretty sure that we can do just that and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that someplace at Amtrak they have such plans or maybe even Alstom has some plans for it.

However for the moment that isn't where Amtrak is planning to put its new found monies. They are putting those dollars where they need them the most, to beef up the over worked single level sleepers and diners. Maybe in a few years from now if things remain favorable we will be discussing new Western LD cars, but for the moment at least that is not the case.

Just a point of clarification. Amtrak will be buying 130 bilevel cars for corridor service, i.e. short distance coach configuration, in addition to the single level cars. However, those are not meant for use in LD trains, though they can be used as needed for short turn cars on LD trains. Also these cars will release certain number of Superliner coaches from short distance service and those can be used for beefing up LD consists. These bi-lelve cars will be Super or Surf-liner like, is what I was told. So my bet is they will be based on Alstom shells, since that is the readily available manufacturing line at present. But they will not provide any means for introducing new LD trains out west. Those if any, will have to be enabled by repair of out of service but available for repair Superliners.

Hence my point in saying that to shoot down service on the FEC for something in the west IMHO doesn't make sense. We can't easily do anything about the west right now, no matter how much we might like to, as Amtrak has committed this round of funding to the single level fleet.

I agree with you. I think viewing the whole issue as FEC vs Pioneer (or whatever) is false dichotomy. At present focus is on corridor and single level LD. So it is somewhat pointless discussing what could be done out west if single level service is not added.

Perhaps if we were to swap the Capitol from Superliner to single level, which might preclude FEC getting an LD, we could do something out west with the Capitol's Superliner cars. But I'm not sure that's a good trade off either. Especially with Amtrak coming so close to selling out the Florida trains in the sleepers year round. Seems to me that it's best to chase that certain revenue with a third LD train to Florida.

I don't belive reverting the Cap to single level is on the cards at all.

Indeed additional sleeper service to Florida, even if it is by adding more sleepers to the existing trains is one of the lowest hanging fruits year round. But even better and more lucrative would be an additional trains covering an additional route structure, and FEC is the clear front-runner for that. While I would love to see service restored on the S Line in Florida, I donlt think that will happen any time soon - if ever, since that is now the designated freight line for CSX in Florida, wi th them basically vacating the A Line for Orlando commuter service.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

And, again, the S-Line is going to be handling both S-Line AND A-Line CSX freight when the Orlando corridor commuter rail starts up, which would make CSX unlikely to look favorably on resuming S-Line Amtrak service.

Correct. CSX plans to start routing a good chunk of the current A-line traffic over to the S-line when the Orlando commuter train starts running. The common knowledge out there is that CSX will push hard against a reinstatement of S-line passenger service at that point. Not saying we shouldn't have service on that line (it really stuck in my craw when the Palm stopped running that line and we have this piddly spur to Tampa now as a result), but FEC is certainly the lowest hanging fruit right now and is a sure-win for new revenue.

Rafi

Uh, partially correct on this one guys. CSX has rerouted all freight traffic which has no business in the ORL area over the S-Line for quite some time now. There will be a couple of intermodal trains moved to the S-line after the new facility at WTH opens. Other than that, the OUCX coal train, a Taft-Jax-Waycross mixed manifest freight, the K trains (mostly rock trains between S FL and Cent FL), and the local road switchers will remain. Current operations can and will be rescheduled very easily to fit into the freight operations windows listed allowing existing operational agreements (with the unions) which will not have to be changed or changed very little (in the case of intermodal). So moving a couple of intermodal trains is far from a huge chunk being all of the freight having no business in the area doesn't come through ORL unless of some emergency or closure of the S-line.

As far as Amtrak service is concerned, all of the Amtrak service (with the exception of #92 on this revised schedule) passes through ORL area during the off peak daytime hours (between rush hour) which is how this will have to be maintained. Still Amtrak scheduling in the Northeast and South FL will continue to have some impact on scheduling no matter what. The S-line will also be upgraded with double track in many places in order to handle the growing capacity issues which have been a long standing problem over there anyway. Amtrak has an obligation to restore the former train service on the S-line before starting any other new service (not saying it will happen this way but...). CSX would be open to the Amtrak train returning to the S-line, but to my understanding would rather it traverse the S-line during the daylight hours as CSX currently operates most of the freight over there at night as well. One Amtrak train each direction, the TPIX juice train, and a couple others wouldn't necessarily cause too much of an issue with the MOW, track inspections, etc. Amtrak's business over on the S-line had always been very strong back when there was daylight train service.

In fact daylight service is really the only option in the state of FL. I understand it has to be nighttime somewhere, however, at least one major city in FL winds up being the destination with most of the passengers on the "Silver Services." And because no one wants to be arriving at an awful time of day combined with the fact that FL is a tourist state should make daylight service a no brainer. At one time we had nothing but daylight Amtrak service here in FL on both the A-line and S-line with two trains and both of the splitting at either JAX or Auburndale respectably. IMHO it would be a heck of a lot easier to return to that. That, as one of the others has stated, is where corridor service would make more sense at least on the FEC and the A-line to some extent.

Now as far as revenue, can't argue about the fact that service on the FEC would be the no brainer there. Again it would need to be daylight service as FEC operates most of its traffic at night, too.

OBS gone freight...

 

[jphjaxfl]

I am pretty sure I know more about Amtrak route history than you do, since I have schedules from every single year- several from most years.

Hey Man, How would you know that? I was 22 when Amtrak started. I have ridden every route that Amtrak has ever operated. You may have the schedules, but I rode the trains. I also traveled extensively on railroad operated passenger trains and have been on mostly every railroad that operated passengers trains in the 1950s and 1960s. I had my first train ride on the Rocky Mountain Rocket when I was less than a month old. My Dad was an agent for the New York Central in the midwest and we traveled exclusively by train until you couldn't get a train to places we wanted to go to. Do not presume to know something that you know nothing about!

 

[AmtrakWPK]

It's nice to know, "from the horse's mouth", so to speak, that a daytime S-Line run might not face stiff opposition from CSX; Palm/Palmetto ran through there in the middle of the night, hauling U.S. Mail on contract with USPS and as I understand it was terminated when Amtrak decided the mail contract wasn't worth the effort and expense.

A daytime FEC run would both serve a very large unserved market AND would almost certainly be faster JAX-MIA than the current inland route of the Star and Meteor.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Palm was terminated when the Auto Train derailed and caused a shortage of Superliners, which resulted in a shortage of Viewliners when the Cardinal had to revert to single-level status.

I bet you one thing these Viewliners might do is run an overnight train NOL to MIA. That would free up some Superliners for use elsewhere.

 

[jis]

I bet you one thing these Viewliners might do is run an overnight train NOL to MIA. That would free up some Superliners for use elsewhere.

That certainly is an interesting and enticing possibility indeed GML. Of course most of the overnight likely will be NOL to JAX. Or did you have a train NOL - MIA via the S-Line in mind, one that misses both JAX and ORL?

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Of course most of the overnight likely will be NOL to JAX. Or did you have a train NOL - MIA via the S-Line in mind, one that misses both JAX and ORL?

I can see that happening (sarcasm). In "theory" there could be a NOL-MIA train that could bypass JAX (being at Baldwin it is possible to head South from the West), but "politically" it will not happen! You can count on that one! Also, JAX is the T&E crew supply point along the route no matter which direction the train is coming from. And lastly, CSX will not want the Amtrak train traversing the S-line too close to the overnight hours. It will need to be placed in a daytime slot for that section of trackage.

OBS gone freight...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I bet you one thing these Viewliners might do is run an overnight train NOL to MIA. That would free up some Superliners for use elsewhere.

That certainly is an interesting and enticing possibility indeed GML. Of course most of the overnight likely will be NOL to JAX. Or did you have a train NOL - MIA via the S-Line in mind, one that misses both JAX and ORL?

The Sunset ran that route in 23 hours. I see no reason why they couldn't do it now. Especially since the trackage is better then ever.