This would result in a downgrade for this train, as it currently runs with 3 sleepers.
That's way too many spares for NY. At most they should have 3 or maybe 4 on standby, and Chicago can make do with 2.
Amtrak confirms new sleepers, baggages, diners will be Viewliners
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Yes, that is a downgrade, but the Silver Palm would serve most of the same cities, and it would also have 2 sleepers. Overall it's a net plus of 1 sleeper for most cities on the route. Although it wouldn't benefit Orlando, which is a drawback. You could probably price the trains in such a way as to get more south Florida passengers onto the Silver Palm, leaving more space open for Orlando passengers on the Meteor and Star.
You're probably right about the spares in NYP. If you left 3 in New York, and 2 in Chicago, then you could add a third sleeper to the Crescent or let the Meteor keep its third. Or, you could add a second sleeper to the Twilight Shoreliner, if there was enough demand. It will be interesting to see how Amtrak actually chooses to distribute the new equipment when the time comes.
Kramerica
Service Attendant
Check out page 10 of the MWRRI report to see where I got my assumption of the Hiawatha being extended. (17 trains CHI-MKE, then 7 of those to GRB and 10 of those to MAD)
The MKE-MAD corridor has had an Environmental Assessment and FONSI, so it is just waiting for money. It appears as though the eastern half of the route is going to be upgraded using stimulus money. Unfortunately, that's the easy half, being that the Empire Builder already runs at 79 mph on that MKE-Watertown segment. The hard part is the Watertown-Madison track, which I believe is not being used right now. I read that the State bought that line a few years ago for passenger rail use and it is sitting idle.
So, given that we find another couple hundred million dollars, that track could be ready in 2-3 years. And I presume that finding a couple more Horizon trainsets wouldn't be too terribly difficult.
Given the completed Environmental Assessment, the big support of rail by Governor Doyle, the state legislature being controlled by the Democrats, and funding for half the track work already in place, I'd say that the MKE-MAD train has the best chance of happening in the Midwest, of all the various train proposals.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I reworked my math a bunch of times. I'm not shocked I screwed up. Do the totals add up, though? I think they actually do, I think I just accidentally left a 6 there instead of a 9.
Scratch my comment about the Palmetto. I didn't think I could dig up enough AMFIIs for the run, but apparently I did.
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Sorry, but no, you had 54 total sleepers at the B'way Limited and then went to 60 with the LSL. That's a difference of 6, not 9. And I see no other unaccounted for variences along the way.
I hope they hire you guys to do this. I would love to get the broadway back.
D.P. Roberts
Conductor
An educated guess on my part. It seems to me that the Superliners show up most frequently on the Chicago Detroit route during the winter. I suspect the the Chicago Detroit route would get them, and then the Chicago St. louis routes. I am assuming that these are the two busiest routes so they would get them first. I saw somplace in this thread that the order would be for 130 of these cars. So I suspect there would be enough cars to eventually cover all of the midwest routes.
If you are keeping the Palmetto and adding Silver Palm, then why not run Palm down the FEC line from JAX to MIA? There is no passenger service south of JAX to West Palm on the Florida east coast. Amtrak and FEC were in serious talks a few years ago about starting up a passenger service on the FEC east coast tracks. You can't get to St. Augustine, Ormond Beach, Daytona Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Cocoa Beach, Melbourne, Stuart, Vero Beach, etc, by train, and that would probably be a good market.
If we want to have enough equipment to also restart service New Orleans-JAX (the "temporarily suspended" east end of Sunset), why not look at (1) extending Palmetto to JAX and running a new service (on the FEC) JAX-MIA, and restarting NOL-JAX, making JAX a connect hub for Palmetto/Palm, Sunset-east, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor, or (2) extend Palmetto to MIA on the east coast FEC tracks. Tampa currently has rail service via the Star's dog-leg, and a bus connection to the Meteor at Orlando to Tampa (with a bus connection down the southwest FLA coast to Ft. Myers as well) and bus connex on the CSX S-line Palm/Palmetto path through Ocala and Gainesville. I would frankly expect a higher passenger count from an FEC east-coast run than whatever you might gain from switching the interior Tamp-Jax S-Line bus back to a train.
To add significantly into this equation, central Florida is currently working on a north-south A-Line commuter service that will run from Amtrak Deland down to just south of Amtrak Kissimmee (Poinciana). This commuter startup will also involve rerouting most CSX freight from the A-Line to the S-Line, (adding to the existing S-Line CSX freight traffic) making the restart of a Palm S-Line service more problematic, and with all the commuter train traffic that will be running through the A-Line Orlando corridor, adding a third Amtrak train through Orlando (actually a fourth through that corridor, since Auto-Train at Sanford will also be in the new commuter corridor from Sanford north to Deland) would also be a problem. I am already wondering if they will want to build a new, elevated rail bridge over the St. John's River at the north end of Sanford, given the much greater frequency of train service that bridge is going to see, plus of course that is a single track bridge, and I think they will try to double-track the entire corridor (a good bit of that corridor already is double). Complicating the idea of a new rail elevated bridge is the fact that they just recently finished a new wider elevated I- 4 bridge over the St. John's River and the A-Line track goes under that and then makes a 90 degree turn just before it gets to the existing rail drawbridge, so they might have to re-route that entire track section to do a new elevated rail bridge.
If we want to have enough equipment to also restart service New Orleans-JAX (the "temporarily suspended" east end of Sunset), why not look at (1) extending Palmetto to JAX and running a new service (on the FEC) JAX-MIA, and restarting NOL-JAX, making JAX a connect hub for Palmetto/Palm, Sunset-east, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor, or (2) extend Palmetto to MIA on the east coast FEC tracks. Tampa currently has rail service via the Star's dog-leg, and a bus connection to the Meteor at Orlando to Tampa (with a bus connection down the southwest FLA coast to Ft. Myers as well) and bus connex on the CSX S-line Palm/Palmetto path through Ocala and Gainesville. I would frankly expect a higher passenger count from an FEC east-coast run than whatever you might gain from switching the interior Tamp-Jax S-Line bus back to a train.
To add significantly into this equation, central Florida is currently working on a north-south A-Line commuter service that will run from Amtrak Deland down to just south of Amtrak Kissimmee (Poinciana). This commuter startup will also involve rerouting most CSX freight from the A-Line to the S-Line, (adding to the existing S-Line CSX freight traffic) making the restart of a Palm S-Line service more problematic, and with all the commuter train traffic that will be running through the A-Line Orlando corridor, adding a third Amtrak train through Orlando (actually a fourth through that corridor, since Auto-Train at Sanford will also be in the new commuter corridor from Sanford north to Deland) would also be a problem. I am already wondering if they will want to build a new, elevated rail bridge over the St. John's River at the north end of Sanford, given the much greater frequency of train service that bridge is going to see, plus of course that is a single track bridge, and I think they will try to double-track the entire corridor (a good bit of that corridor already is double). Complicating the idea of a new rail elevated bridge is the fact that they just recently finished a new wider elevated I- 4 bridge over the St. John's River and the A-Line track goes under that and then makes a 90 degree turn just before it gets to the existing rail drawbridge, so they might have to re-route that entire track section to do a new elevated rail bridge.
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BuzzKillington
Service Attendant
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Perhaps they could have one Silver Service train run to and terminate in Tampa (or continue to Miami if they want the equipment there). One train can take the Inland route through Orlando to Miami (bus connection to Tampa) and one train can take the East Coast route with a clear shot to Miami (110mph?).
Edit: Never mind... looks like post # 84 stole my thunder.
Edit: Never mind... looks like post # 84 stole my thunder.
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Mods: please delete my previous "guest" post
FEC runs too close to the current line to justify the expense, time, and frankly, running of a train over it. Covering the line I'm suggesting would add a bunch of cities that are over an hour from Amtrak service. I want to maximize the number of people within an hour of Amtrak service. Running it on the FEC makes no sense, other than FECs apparent ability to run a decent railroad.
When we have 95% of the US within an hour of Amtrak service, we can consider such silliness as carpeting the country with redundant routes. Otherwise, I'd just as well have Amtrak spend the money for running on the FEC on upgrading and restoring the Pioneer.
Well dangit. Then lets run 3 of the Silver Service sets with 2, then. That assumes that you actually need 10. I still say you can run all three trains, properly scheduled, with 9 sets total. One leaves in the morning, lets say the Star, one leaves about mid day (Meteor) and one leaves for dinner (Palm). If you run it like that, I'm positive you can cover it with 9 sets.
FEC runs too close to the current line to justify the expense, time, and frankly, running of a train over it. Covering the line I'm suggesting would add a bunch of cities that are over an hour from Amtrak service. I want to maximize the number of people within an hour of Amtrak service. Running it on the FEC makes no sense, other than FECs apparent ability to run a decent railroad.
When we have 95% of the US within an hour of Amtrak service, we can consider such silliness as carpeting the country with redundant routes. Otherwise, I'd just as well have Amtrak spend the money for running on the FEC on upgrading and restoring the Pioneer.
VentureForth
Engineer
First of all, I find it funny that the purchasing of new equipment at Amtrak is called an "Investment". Except that my 401(k) investment has, in the past year, gone the same direction in value... At least I hope mine will be worth more some day.
What the heck is a Viewliner coach going to look like? Already sounds too heavy for its use. But it is almost the right height for the P42 locos, so that'll make 'em look nice.
What the heck is a Viewliner coach going to look like? Already sounds too heavy for its use. But it is almost the right height for the P42 locos, so that'll make 'em look nice.
printman2000
Engineer
Not that they have any plans yest for viewliner coaches, but I would say you put in some big windows as opposed to two rows of windows like the sleepers. Not as large as both windows put together, but really good sized.
Melbourne area population about 400,000
Daytona area population over 250,000
Titusville area: over 50,000, and includes quick access to Cocoa Beach, the Kennedy Space Center, the Port Canaveral Cruise Ship Terminal etc.
St. Augustine area over 50,000
Vero Beach area over 120,000
Port Saint Lucie Urbanized Area - 270,774
All of those are directly along the path of the FEC and have no passenger rail service directly or by bus connection. S-Line cities (former Palm/Palmetto) still have bus connex. Please actually read what I wrote about the Orlando commuter rail and rerouting of A-Line freight traffic over to S-Line.
Running it over FEC would directly serve a population of over a million who now have NO train service, and would probably make the JAX-MIA transit in several fewer hours than running it either on the S-Line or on the A-Line.
Daytona area population over 250,000
Titusville area: over 50,000, and includes quick access to Cocoa Beach, the Kennedy Space Center, the Port Canaveral Cruise Ship Terminal etc.
St. Augustine area over 50,000
Vero Beach area over 120,000
Port Saint Lucie Urbanized Area - 270,774
All of those are directly along the path of the FEC and have no passenger rail service directly or by bus connection. S-Line cities (former Palm/Palmetto) still have bus connex. Please actually read what I wrote about the Orlando commuter rail and rerouting of A-Line freight traffic over to S-Line.
Respectfully, Baloney. I live down here, just off the A-Line through Orlando. I have talked with folks who live along the coast and who would love to have train service. The reason there is a Daytona Beach commercial airport, and a Melbourne commercial airport is that a lot of those folks WILL NOT drive over an hour to get to MCO (Orlando International) to get on an airplane.
Running it over FEC would directly serve a population of over a million who now have NO train service, and would probably make the JAX-MIA transit in several fewer hours than running it either on the S-Line or on the A-Line.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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I completely agree with AmtrakWPK on this point. My significant other lives down that way and having spent considerable time in that area, it is quite obvious to me at least that starting passenger service on FEC is most likely to be very successful of various possible routes in Florida. It will most likely do much better than NOL - JAX for example, just to pick one that everyone gets excited about. It also meshes nicely with the plans of Tri-Rail to extend service over FEC to Jupiter. Actually, a single train a day will prove to be insufficient very quickly.
OTOH, I would also add that addition of such service should not be at the cost of reducing service to Orlando, because Orlando is a huge O/D location in Florida.
I think it would be a smart idea to use the FEC tracks. I can think of many occasions this year that I could have taken the train to Daytona Beach/Melbourne to visit family, weddings, birthdays, but instead I have to drive on I-95 which is a mess just north of West Palm, although the rest of the way isn't that bad.
Im not holding my breath but I hope to see rail service on the FEC in the next 10 years.
Im not holding my breath but I hope to see rail service on the FEC in the next 10 years.
If either of these routes gets the "thumbs up" for 110 mph running the Superliners are out. They are only rated to 90 or 100mph, I believe.
p&sr
OBS Chief
Perhaps "capital expenditure" would be a better term?
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
If you're advocating a corridor service, fine. The FEC would make sense for that. But not an LD route. I'd rather serve both coasts of FL with a long distance train, then serve things the way you are talking. Look, if I had things my way, Amtrak's timetable would be as thick as a 1950s Official Guide To The Railroads, and we'd have routes going every which way all hours of the day and night. I mean, the FEC would look like the bloody Northeast Corridor.
But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Lone Star, Floridian, and Spirit of California. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.
But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Lone Star, Floridian, and Spirit of California. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.
Superliner 2's have trucks that are designed for 110 mph operation, I think.
I live in Jacksonville and I agree with AmtrakWPK that trains utlilizing the FEC line would be well patronized. I think there should be two trains per day in each direction to give passengers a choice. The FEC was orginally double tracked from JAX to MIA so there should still be room to add an additional track over the route. I think eventually a Tri Rail commuter line will utilize the FEC from West Palm to MIA. There is really more population along the the FEC than either of the inland routes. Before the big strike in the mid 1960s when FEC got rid of the Unions and streamlined the RR, the FEC carried more passengers from JAX to MIA than the SAL did. I drive from JAX to So. Fl 3-4 times a year and would welcome a train that could make the route in 4-5 hours which is comparable to driving. Unfortunately, Amtrak times from JAX to So. FL are slow and one never knows if the trains will arrive from NYC on time.
You can't compare Florida and West Virginia. Florida has much less Amtrak Service than they had orginally with Amtrak. For a number of years, there were 3 daily trains from Jacksonville to Miami on Amtrak (without going through Tampa. The Silver Meteor, The Silver Star (which split at Auburndale) and the South Wind later Floridian. There were 3 daily trains from Jacksonville to Tampa and St. Petersburg. The Champion, the Silver Star and the Floridian. Even after the Champion was discontinued north of Jacksonville, a section of the Silver Meteor split from the NYC-MIA train at JAX to run to Tampa. Amtrak with CSX's encouragement has gradually whittled down the passenger service within Florida. I think the State of Florida needs to support Amtrak better with some funding much as California has. I think that may happen in the near future. Amtrak's future is serving densley populated areas all over the US.
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frj1983
OBS Chief
I believe that a few years ago, FEC was open to letting Amtrak run some passenger trains on it's route. But FEC was recently purchased by RailAmerica and I'm not sure how open that corporation would be to passenger trains now?? It may now be a lost cause. :huh:
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transit54
Conductor
The NECR, another Rail America entity, has always been open to Amtrak trains on its track. They made it very clear they would prefer the Vermonter to stay when the state tossed around the idea of cutting it back. Now, the primary reasons for this are: 1) They are not operating at track capacity, so they experience some revenue gain by allowing Amtrak to use the tracks when they'd otherwise be idle, and 2) They receive a significant sum to keep their track up to 40/59 MPH standards, which they otherwise would not do. FEC operates much more in terms of volume, so these issues may be absolutely irrelevant. But Rail America isn't always opposed to running Amtrak trains on its tracks.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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For suitable amount of monetary contribution to add necessary sidings I am sure they will still be quite open. They are already in negotiations with Tri-Rail for service south of Jupiter anyway.
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