Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[chakk]

I have overhead conductors on the CZ attempt to use cell phones to contact the UP Omaha dispatcher when the engineer notified the conductor that s/he was unable to reach the dispatcher through the regular train radio. This seems to be a regular occurance in Ruby Canyon, CO/UT.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Two years ago when I rode the Empire Builder #8 Eastbound, the exhaust fans went out in the Cascade tunnel and we had to wait on the West side for 3 hours while a crew fixed them!

The Conductor told us that they didnt have any radio contact with the duspatcher so he climbed up to Highway 2 ( pretty steep embankment) in order to use his Cell phone , no-one aboard had any service on their devices.

We were allowed a smoke and fresh air break on the ROW for a couple of hours!

Once it was dark we had to reboard!

 

[FormerOBS]

Kind of confused here, Jim. No. 8 is eastbound.

Tom

 

[Bob Dylan]

Kind of confused here, Jim. No. 8 is eastbound.

Tom

Oops, Senior moment! Corrected in OP, thanks Tom!

 

[KmH]

Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?

Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG

I believe he was a conductor before he was an engineer and the clueless media probably don't even realize that is a pic from his conductor days

Ah! That explains it. Thanks.

 

[VentureForth]

Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?

Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG

I believe he was a conductor before he was an engineer and the clueless media probably don't even realize that is a pic from his conductor days

Ah! That explains it. Thanks.

No need to continue to bash the media. The first place I saw the picture properly captioned it as an old photo of him as a conductor. On Fox,iirc...
Most engineers outside the NEC don't even wear a uniform, fwiw.

 

[jis]

Engineers wear uniform on the NEC? Really?

 

[Ryan]

Their uniform seems to consist of jeans and a polo shirt of some type.

 

[afigg]

There was a hearing held today by the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure on the #188 crash and railroad safety. In advance of Boardman's statement, Amtrak issued a news release on the plan to complete deployment of PTC on the NEC: Amtrak: Committed To Safety, Implementation Of Positive Train Control By End Of 2015. I expect there will be updates from the NTSB on the investigation, have not checked the news reports yet.

Content of news release:

WASHINGTON – “Safety must continue to be our highest priority,” Amtrak President & CEO Joe Boardman told the U.S. House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure in his submitted testimony today.

In his written testimony, Boardman noted that the safety systems along the Northeast Corridor (NEC) are the best in the country. Prior to last month’s train derailment at Frankford Junction, Amtrak’s last fatal passenger accident on the NEC from a derailment or collision occurred 28 years ago, and since then, Amtrak trains have safely carried millions of passengers. “In no other place is a comparable volume of traffic moved with such a solid record. In addition to a thorough training, oversight and coaching system for our crews, we have a layered signal system that provides trains with multiple levels of protection,” said Boardman.

He explained that Amtrak’s Positive Train Control (PTC) system is in service from New Haven, Conn. to Boston, and at points between Washington, D.C. and New York where trains exceed 125mph. PTC has been installed on the rest of the Amtrak owned and operated NEC, and is scheduled to be operational by the Federal deadline of December 31, 2015.

 

[jis]

Here you go....

NTSB report: No equipment issue on Amtrak crash

 

[dlagrua]

My theory was that human error, carelessness or whatever was the cause of the derailment. Yes I could be wrong but how many causes could there be? The tracks and locomotive were determined to be in good operable condition. The only other cause that I can think of is that a renegade hacker took control of the train operation system and deliberately crashed it. Last week there was a guy aboard an aircraft that was able to hack into the navigation system on the plane with his laptop. Could this be possible on an Amtrak locomotive? I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .

 

[George K]

I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .

I can log into my cell phone account and see what all of my phone lines (I have 4 daughters) did yesterday. I have no reason to suspect that the engineer was inattentive, yet. But I don't buy the NTSB explanation that they are still waiting to retrieve data.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The NTSB is very deliberate,meticulous and secretive in their methods of investigation!

They sometimes take a year to finish their investigations and issue their final report about tragic transportation incidents!

So they won't be rushing to judgment or playing PR Games like the Media,Politicians and Internet "experts" have shamefully done!

 

[George K]

Agreed, Jim. Whether they have made a determination as to the cause, and whether they are ready to disclose that determination are two very different things. It's a good thing that they won't comment until all the data are reviewed (frankly, I'm surprised that they've said as much as they have - "no bullet", etc).

I'm just commenting that they already have the engineer's cellphone records. To deny that inspires, in me, at least, distrust.

 

[CHamilton]

Some useful info in this, despite the sad-but-unfortunately-true headline.

Parties point fingers on deadly Amtrak crash

 

[John Bobinyec]

Everyday we trust that drivers of motor vehicles will stay in their lane, stop at stop signs and at stop lights, etc... And so it is with engineers. It really doesn't matter whether he was using his cell phone, or failed to operate the train properly or failed to stop the train if the locomotive went wild, or he went into a daze or had some sort of mental lapse, etc... All those things could happen again tomorrow to any other engineer running trains here. The only thing that will prevent such incidents in the future, whatever their cause, is PTC.

jb

 

[FormerOBS]

In an NTSB investigation, everything is examined. This includes the crew, all equipment, radios, telephones, track structure, power systems, and anything else involved in the accident. The fact that they investigate any of these single items (such as the engineer's telephone, for example) does not necessarily mean that they suspect the item was a causative factor. NTSB typically takes a year or so to investigate and return their findings on a serious accident, and I believe their findings are not allowed as evidence in subsequent litigation.

I believe it is not possible for someone to remotely access the locomotive's controls and cause the train to speed up. When Positive Train Control (PTC) is in force, the system can INTERFERE WITH the engineer's ability to speed up or continue, but it cannot cause the system to speed up. I guess the best way to visualize it is to think of the engine's operation as a water hose. The engineer controls the flow of water. If he exceeds the designated water flow, the PTC steps in with an axe to cut the hose. The axe can't increase the water flow, but it can surely prevent the water from reaching the nozzle.

If somebody thinks he can contradict this, I'm willing to listen.

Tom

 

[jis]

Tom, you are correct.

 

[Thirdrail7]

My theory was that human error, carelessness or whatever was the cause of the derailment. Yes I could be wrong but how many causes could there be? The tracks and locomotive were determined to be in good operable condition. The only other cause that I can think of is that a renegade hacker took control of the train operation system and deliberately crashed it. Last week there was a guy aboard an aircraft that was able to hack into the navigation system on the plane with his laptop. Could this be possible on an Amtrak locomotive? I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .

I believe it is not possible for someone to remotely access the locomotive's controls and cause the train to speed up.

While I tend to agree with FormerOBS that is extremely probable that such actions are not possible, I'm not comfortable ruling it out. Remember, this isn't your Grandfather's locomotive. This unit is nothing more than a computerized rolling substation. Those aren't valves with compressed air running under that control panel. They are digital inputs and most things send a command to a computer to execute the action.

Computers can be hacked, overridden or make errors.

Again, I think it is not probable but to deny that fact is unrealistic.

 

[the_traveler]

My theory was that human error, carelessness or whatever was the cause of the derailment. Yes I could be wrong but how many causes could there be? ... I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .

When the NTSB investigates an airline crash, the final report takes a year or so!

 

[FormerOBS]

Third rail:

Do you know that the throttle sends its commands to the traction motors via a (hackable) computer? I can't say definitively, but I question that.

Tom

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Something I have wondered about in this acident. Something caused the train to accelerate. Will take time and skill to find out that cause. What I am wondering is, would it have been better for the train to have continued at the high rate of speed rather than going into emegency stop? In driving a car applying the brakes in the curve, rather than before or after can be a disaster. With so much weight would this also be true. I understand I am not knowlegable in train dynamics.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Third rail:

Do you know that the throttle sends its commands to the traction motors via a (hackable) computer? I can't say definitively, but I question that.

Tom

Whether it is hackable or not is above my knowledge, but all throttle commands go through the CCU which sends electrical signals to the TCU which has a computer control to drive the motors and allow for regenerative braking.

I'm not going to post it here, but there is a video that shows the underside of the control panel. Take a look at it and you'll notice that you're not looking at air valves under there. You're not even looking at the typical harness of wires found in previous electrics. The vast majority of commands are sent electrically.

Surely, you remember how much trouble they had with the horn when these first came out. it wasn't a modification to the air system that fixed it. It was a modification to the software that controlled the horn settings.

When these engines break down, they don't come with wrenches or plugs to get them back on the beam. They come with a laptop. :help:

 

[cirdan]

Obviously we cannot totally rule out that somebody could have hacked the locomotive's software.

The software is designed to be updated as required to correct errors or add new features. Normally new software versions are not installed until after extensive and documented testing and evaluation followed by a multi-tier approval.

However, for somebody to maliciously change the software, they would probably have had to gain access to the computer system. Normally a software update is performed by attaching a laptop to the locomotive using a dedicated interface and installing the software from there. I don't know what protection (passwords etc) is in place to prevent rogue elements from gaining illicit access and doing that.

I did my internship with a company building locomotives (the then ABB Transportation) and a software install would take upwards of several hours and it could only be done when all systems were down. To connect the laptop you had to remove a cover inside the locomotive and break a seal, so you couldn't do it without leaving evidence. And the tiema nd effort required mean its wasn't something a nonchalant terrorist can do in between things when the engineer's back is turned for a second. This was many years ago though and maybe things are simpler now.

Possibly you wouldn't need to tamper with the software though. Suppose there was a way to gain access remotely and send commands to the locmotive. I don't know Amtrak's control system works. In the UK, when a cab trailer is controlling the train, the commands are actually transmitted using the lighting circuits. In some countries they use the public address circuit instead, but the principle remains the same. So quite theoretically somebody could go to the bathroom, unscrew the light or loudspeaker and hook up a laptop and start sending signals. I don't know what sort of internal validation there is to determine if commands are legitimate. I guess there must be something but can't say anything about the level of security.

But I think we can discount that in this case as the locmotive was pulling and there wasn't a cab car.

So what else is there. Radio? Some freight locomotives can be controlled by radio, but I doubt this is the case for the ACS-64.

Maybe there is some GSM or equivalent link for diagnostics. But could that be hacked to actually control the locomotive? Not impossible but highly unlikely.

So I would say, overall it is not impossible that the locomotive was controlled maliciously by an external agent, but one should be cautious of consiracy theories when there are more likely explanations open, such as a human or technical error.

However this is all speciulation. I'm sure the investigation will be thorough and not leave a stone unturned to evaluate all the evidence.

Before that, anything we say is pure conjecture.

 

[NW cannonball]

Everyday we trust that drivers of motor vehicles will stay in their lane, stop at stop signs and at stop lights, etc... And so it is with engineers. It really doesn't matter whether he was using his cell phone, or failed to operate the train properly or failed to stop the train if the locomotive went wild, or he went into a daze or had some sort of mental lapse, etc... All those things could happen again tomorrow to any other engineer running trains here. The only thing that will prevent such incidents in the future, whatever their cause, is PTC.

jb

Agree. Sooner is better.

And I think it's a disgrace that the mandate for the Class I freight roads to get with PTC (the railroads that Amtrak shares with freight on the long-distance lines) hasn't happened.

It has taken too long, and the deadline has been postponed,

Technical problems, sure.

The classical unfunded mandate that allows our beloved Congress to spout that they are "doing something" "with no taxpayer money" to help "save lives" oh my.