cpamtfan
OBS Chief
Well 30 could probably cut it (plus the prototype). But maybe Amtrak should make a new list on the extra cars (like having an extra 15 sleepers, less diners, more baggage dorms, etc.).
cpamtfan-Peter
cpamtfan-Peter
Amtrak Issues RFP for New Viewliners
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I don't know why you can't find it, I repeat it all over the place.
50 full baggage cars, 25 baggage-dorms, 25 sleepers, 25 diners.
50 full baggage cars, 25 baggage-dorms, 25 sleepers, 25 diners.
Great, thanks.
So who's bidding? The original Viewliners were designed by Budd, prototyped at Beech Grove, and built by Amerail which is no longer in business. Alstom, a French company took over their operations. I can only guess that Bombardier, Alstom, Siemens and Talgo would be the bidders. We already put AMF, Budd, Pullman and all of the other American passenger car manufacturers out of business so whos left? If this goes through its going to be interesting seeing new diners and baggage cars coupled to ancient equipment. Maybe Beech Grove will step up the effort to refurbish more Viewliners as all use modular interiors.
Amtrak owns the patents to the Viewliners, not Budd and now its successor.
MattW
Conductor
I've done a bit more looking around, and at this point, I'd say I'm pulling for Alstom. Not only do they have the original Viewliner plant (that's gotta count for something right?), but they built cars for Amtrak California that seem pretty good, and they built the TGVs which are second to none. Talgo however does seem to have more long-distance experience which would be useful, but then again, Alstom already has a factory.
Here is an interior shot of the Allstom plant in Hornell, NY. This shot was taken when they were building the Comet cars.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
When you get down to it, its more or less a two company race, Alstom and Bombardier. Talgo builds excellent cars... of the TALGO type, i.e. Tren Articulado Ligero Goicoechea Oriol. Light, articulated, tilt trains. They have no experience building cars such as the Viewliners, and with their orders for Wisconsin and others, I doubt they'd be interested.
Lastly, Siemens doesn't do this kind of stuff, either. I don't recall them doing heavy rail trailers, nor ones out of stainless steel. Alstom and Bombardier both build heavy rail trailers. Bombardier in NA, quite frankly, doesn't do anything but practically.
Except for the planes.
Bombardier makes Canadair regional jets and Learjet private jets. Nothing to sneeze at, for sure.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
bombardier is responsible for the bi-level cars used by TRE,NMRR,Go transit etc and the superliner 2 order.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I was talking about their Transportation division, not their Aerospace division.
MikeM
OBS Chief
Which, although a bit off topic, reminds us of the Aerotrain, one massive demonstration of why bus and aircraft construction expertise doesn't translate to railroad usage...
Different situation. In this case, Bombardier didn't use their aerospace designers to desing railcars. In fact, Bombardier (which started out as a snowmobile manufactuer, IIRC), hasn't really designed much of anything new on their own. Their airplane designs came from Canadair, de Havilland Canada, and Lear, their railcar division came from elsewhere, etc. They've just brought those various divisions under one corporate structure.
Pullman Standard was the original designer of the Superliner cars and they also designed the old lounge car cafe cars with the enormous windows. .I believe that Bombardier was the manufacturer of the last generation of Superliners an we know that Amerrail was the manufacturer of the Viewliners. Both passengers cars have had their share of issues so who know who Amtrak will chose to manufacture and design the next order of cars. It would seem Allstom woud be the logical choice as they have all the tooling, but this company rose from the ashes of the old Amerrail.
jis
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Alstom has not much to do with Amerail. The only connecting thread is that one of Alstom's factories happens to occupy the same piece of real estate that Amerail occupied once upon a time, and also had acquired certain associated warranty service responsibilities. This happened as a result of Alstom acquiring certain properties when Amerail went out of business.
Alstom is a French company formed out of the merger of Alsace and Thomson, and is a well known manufacturer of rail equipment.
As an aside, previously it formed part of Alcatel-Alstom and then was also into doing telecom equipment and other stuff. Since then Alcatel and Alstom were split apart and as some of us know Alcatel bought Lucent Technologies to become Alcatel-Lucent, and currently owns what remains of Bell Labs. Strange are the ways of M&A.
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MikeM
OBS Chief
I was always of the impression that the Superliner II's were pretty successful in launch - there were changes made to trucks, toilets, layout of the cafe area of the observation car, and different color schemes, but overall I don't recall there being major teething issues when those cars were launched. My inclination is that either Allstom or Bombardier would be qualified to build new cars. Am I mistaken about the SII's?
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
The rollout of the Superliner IIs was somewhat more successful than the rollout of the Superliner Is, which were built by a Pullman-Standard in its death throes. Fortunately, the Superliner I and II cars are both generally well built and will probably comfortably last 50 years of over the road service. However, in the dawn of their lives, the Superliner Is were cantankerous, ornery things with teething issues aplenty. Their suspension, in particular, were an issue.
Fortunately, unlike the Viewliners, the shell was promising and Amtrak ended up with excellent cars. The Amerail Viewliners are more deeply flawed, down in the very composition of the metal with which they were formed, and outward from there.
You might put lipstick on an Amerail Viewliner, but at the end of the day it will still be a pig.
Fortunately, unlike the Viewliners, the shell was promising and Amtrak ended up with excellent cars. The Amerail Viewliners are more deeply flawed, down in the very composition of the metal with which they were formed, and outward from there.
You might put lipstick on an Amerail Viewliner, but at the end of the day it will still be a pig.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
amerail is now Alstom/Morrison-Knudsen.
Really? I thought (just from reading this forum) that Morrison-Knudsen went out of business, transformed into Amerail to finish the Viewliners, then died. If Amerail was MK, and Amerail was only a front for Amtrak picking up the remnants of MK, how is MK still alive?
Where am I getting confused?
jis
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Actually Amerail was a temporary holding company created by a completion insurance bonding co. to complete Morrison-Knudsen Passenger Rail products during bankruptcy. This took place in 1995 during MK's Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings from which MK emerged as a company that was minus the railcar business which caused its bankruptcy. Since then it has been acquired by Washington Construction Group, which then changed its name to Morrison Knudsen Company! Finally in 1999 MK acquired a part of Westinghouse Electric Company (the government services group), and then promptly entered bankruptcy in 2001 immediately after acquiring Raytheon Engineers & Constructors, but emerged from it later. Finally what used to be Washington Group aka Morrison-Knudsen was acquired by URS in 2007 and became the Washington Division of URS, operating out of Boise ID.
As for the left-overs from the MK Railcar Division, Amerail completed (well sort of.... and sloppily at that) the existing contracts and then went out of existence (well I think a shell company may still exist on paper). In addition to the VLs, the Calif. Car sets and Chicago rapid transit cars were also in this situation. Alstom did take over the warranty program on the VLs. And of course one of Alstom's factories occupies the same real estate at Hornell. Upon completion of the passenger rail product contracts the bonding company disposed off all the properties that were temporarily held by Amerail and at that point Alstom acquired a very large proportion of the same.
There is no entity AFAIK that carries the name Alstom/Morrison-Knudsen. As mentioned above there is indeed no entity called Morrison-Kudsen anymore AFAIK. In EPA documents the owner of the Hornell plant is listed as "Alstom Transportation Co." through an outfit called "Alstom Rolling Stock USA".
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
There is a book called the Talmud and in it are many things, most of which for various reasons I disagree with. But among them is passage that says, "First learn, then form opinions", roughly. It is a useful phrase to keep in mind.
Amerail, as Jishnu said, was an off shoot designed to satisfy legal obligations of M-K. It wasn't intended. Amerail's shops in Hornell, I'm pretty sure, used to be the Erie Railroad shops.
As is often the case, that's not what you said.
Does the Talmud say something about completely forming thoughts before engaging the keyboard?
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
No, I have a problem common to people with my level of intelligence, which is constantly making an erroneous assumption people know what I'm talking about.
battalion51
Engineer
Well you know what happens when you assume...(although it's probably minus me in this case)
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