Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Anderson]

It appears that perhaps Boca Raton is doing something. See the attached picture of the Dixie Highway / Spanish River crossing this morning:

IMG_4294.jpg

An actual Police presence.

As to whether a camera at rr crossings would be constitutional or not, I don’t believe that there had been a court determination of that use.

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Legally, I wonder if Brightline (or FECR) could put up a camera and work with a contractor to file trespassing complaints?

(That's actually a point worth pursuing...could the railroad try to have trespassing charges filed for folks ignoring the gates?)

 

[me_little_me]

It appears that perhaps Boca Raton is doing something. See the attached picture of the Dixie Highway / Spanish River crossing this morning:

IMG_4294.jpg

An actual Police presence.

As to whether a camera at rr crossings would be constitutional or not, I don’t believe that there had been a court determination of that use.

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Legally, I wonder if Brightline (or FECR) could put up a camera and work with a contractor to file trespassing complaints?

(That's actually a point worth pursuing...could the railroad try to have trespassing charges filed for folks ignoring the gates?)

That would mean Brightline's representatives (or their contractor's) would have to show up in court to testify to prove the time was correct, the camera correctly recorded the incident, the gates were legitimately down and they correctly identified the right perps. And trying to get back the cost of all that would be a problem. On the other hand, if the municipality does it, the railroad doesn't have to get involved.

 

[JRR]

Just an update to Boca policing. I was advised by others that several other Boca crossings had police “observers” last week.

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[VentureForth]

According to the last couple months, the FHP should be up in the Boynton Beach area monitoring the crossings.

 

[VentureForth]

They're also flagrantly unconstitutional and nothing more than an attempt at profiteering by local governments. I'm all for increased rail safety, but not like that. Two things need to happen for increased rail safety. One, increased enforcement by actual police. Ticket cars and pedestrians alike for violating the crossing. Not to the level of true zero tolerance, but close. Second, go after the people and estates of the people that cause this. This is two-fold. At the scene, release the train as soon as the relief crew is there, no more "investigating." The local Barney Fifes can play Joe Friday all they want once the passengers have disembarked at the terminal and the train is in the yard. Then sue the victim if they live or their family/estate if they don't.

They aren't "flagrantly" unconstitutional because they still exist. It's a form of civil law enforcement. Sure, there are challenges to it, but being in public means you are no longer in private. Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.

 

[willem]

Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.

There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.

There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.

Only if it's concealed rooftop areas of Amtrak stations.....

 

[Anderson]

@me_little_me: Fair point, though I suspect that if the local courts were amenable they could arrange for all of the summonses to land on the same docket (much as most officers will have one day every few weeks that they go in). Having a representative show up one or two days a month (probably only one; I'm not expecting a huge number of cases, especially once some stick is being put about) isn't likely to be insanely expensive. Even if they have the local governments handle it, they would still likely need to either totally outsource the process (e.g. the cameras would basically be a municipal operation) or have a technician send in an affadavit.

Moreover, knowing how *ahem* cooperative one or two counties have been (Martin and Indian River to varying degrees), I wouldn't want to bet on them being particularly aggressive in this sort of enforcement; I'd probably be doing some of this in South Florida as a trial run (no pun intended) for expecting to have to do it further north to work around incalcitrant counties.

To be clear, I'm mainly thinking of license plates (not facial recognition); in those cases, I think you'd be on better ground than a red-light camera would be, especially seeing as the railroad probably predates every crossing...so trespass would seem to be at issue.

 

[VentureForth]

Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.

There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.

It was in response to the comment that cameras are flagrantly unconstitutional. I don't think they are unconstitutional, but I don't think cameras should be used in a facial recognition way (ie: identifying trespassers to go around gates). Cameras identifying vehicles, which are regulated by the State are fair game to capture and identify (by license plate number). Prosecuting the driver will always be extremely difficult because anyone could be driving the car regardless of to whom it is registered. That's a whole 'nother issue.

 

[jis]

Apparently various branches of DHS want to use cameras in a face recognition way in a big way

including for identity verification at immigration checkpoints, instead of or in addition to using things like finger prints as is done at Global Entry kiosks today.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Toll Roads and Casinos depend on the use of Cameras and/or Scanners to ID users.

Facial recognition software,developed for intelligence/military usage, is now standard in Casinos and also some Government buildings.

Technology increasingly takes leaps and bounds, while Laws and Ordinances lag behind in trying to strike a balance in protecting individual rights versus collective security.

I have no problem with cameras in public areas, they've proven to be excellent tools for dealing with crime and terrorism in many places.

Morons that shouldn't be driving is another topic that has been covered here many times, but the use of Cameras @ grade crossings should be a No brainer!

 

[me_little_me]

Many of the red light camera issues have to do with the fact that some communities have reduced yellow time where there is a camera, issues of outsourcing that task to private companies the right to bill/collect money, and the fact that in least some communities, an officer has to review and decide whether the camera was triggered even when someone made a full stop then legally proceeded to turn right on red. There have been cases where the officer got it wrong but the person charged is no longer in the community and can't argue their case or even "prove" it without a local lawyer.

These should not be permitted to be the case for RR crossing violations. As few trains as there are (compared to number of times a traffic light turns red) should allow video triggered by the gate lights (i.e. video on all the time but deleted automatically unless crossing warning activated if something is detected in the death zone) in which case prior 30 seconds or so saved. Video more accurate than single photo. Far less data involved. Third party outsourcing of data gathering, decision making and any billing , IMHO, should ALWAYS be prohibited. Either the RR does it and files civil/criminal trespassing suit or municipality does it.

 

[JRR]

More effective solution than posting police cars at each crossing.

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[willem]

Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.

There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.

It was in response to the comment that cameras are flagrantly unconstitutional. I don't think they are unconstitutional, but I don't think cameras should be used in a facial recognition way (ie: identifying trespassers to go around gates). Cameras identifying vehicles, which are regulated by the State are fair game to capture and identify (by license plate number). Prosecuting the driver will always be extremely difficult because anyone could be driving the car regardless of to whom it is registered. That's a whole 'nother issue.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[cirdan]

In theory, isn't a railroad crossing actually railroad property, over which road traffic (including pedestrians) merely have a right of way.

The railroad should therefore be within its rights to deploy cameras on its own property.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Back to riding on Brightline--I have two questions for anyone who has taken it:

Is there a luggage area, or is it specifically for business/leisure travel? (In other words, if I went down there on vacation and had my suitcase, would I be able to carry it on and have a place to put it without getting dirty looks?)

Also, have they started the free snacks/beverages yet? Just curious as to how they are going to serve everyone on such a short trip!

 

[chrsjrcj]

They offer checked luggage and you can carry on. I think they have the size limit for the carry on. Despite the short trip, I have seen people bring luggage on board.

There are complimentary snacks and beverages in select and in the select lounge. Theyre pretty good getting everyone even when Select is close to full. Snacks and beverages are purchased in Smart, so less time is spent actually serving people. Only during opening weekend when Smart was packed and everything was complimentary did I see them struggle to serve everyone.

 

[cirdan]

If they offer checked luggage, does this imply there is a luggage compartment in one of the cars?

maybe I didn't look closely enough, but on the pictures and movies I've seen of the trains so far I never noticed such a thing.

 

[chrsjrcj]

In the last coach there is a section at the end accessible only to crew. This is where the luggage carts (what Brightline places checked luggage) should go.

 

[jis]

Yup last coach at the end where the locomotive is attached. It is afterall a permanently coupled train set with unique cars in their unique positions in the consist.

 

[GBNorman]

At about 12:30 within the link is a focus on the Delray Beach Atlantic Avenue X-ing at which I am fearful "something bad" is going to happen:

https://youtu.be/PhaOVwG9eTM

This X-ing I think represents a far greater hazard than do either illustrated in Ft. Lauderdale. Broward Blvd is immediately South of the station, so any BL train has stopped, and when the Miami service begins (I still hold such will be closer to Xmas than Easter), the NB trains, Freight and Passenger, will be approaching the station at a Restricted speed. While nothing beyond their self-centered idiocy, can explain those "not exactly homeless or on welfare" folk from climbing over the freight train at 1st St SE, any train is moving over that X-ing at Restricted speed.

Despite my absolute astonishment that I have held throughout these pages, AAF is moving forward. Actually serving Miami, as well as inevitably charging "market" fares (my guess for Miami-WP will be $45 Coach, $65 Business each way), the hemorrhage the operation has to be experiencing will be stemmed to some degree.

 

[jis]

Here is an interesting proposal for extension to Tampa that I am sure AAF planners will take as input when they start designing the Orlando - Tampa project:




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[Brian_tampa]

Here is an interesting proposal for extension to Tampa that I am sure AAF planners will take as input when they start designing the Orlando - Tampa project:

This proposal goes against alot of what AAF has said that they require in order to be successful. First this proposal loops off into Disney World adding time and additional construction costs. Second it detours into Lakeland using the existing CSX A Line route through downtown. Finally, it uses Tampa Union station. All of these require new environmental reviews and new routes to be built along private property.
First with the proposed Disney world route. My own personal belief is that AAF will follow the old FLHSR route from the airport to Disney via SR528 Beachline to I-4. The next phase of I4-Ultimate by 2025 will clear the I4 median from SR528 to US27 for AAF. Currently there are many bridge structures in the I4 median as it traverses Disney world that are in the way of constructing a rail corridor at grade level there. Alternatively, AAF could choose the Central Florida Greenway SR517 (owned by CFX) to get to I4. The CFX authority has big plans to expand this road west of the airport. I doubt AAF could build in the median from what I have read. Perhaps adjacent to the SR417 but that would involve aquiring land in order to run at fast speeds by reducing the curvature. SR417 is curvy along this section.

The lakeland detour sounds good on paper. Yet it also involves alot of slow speed running to get to downtown lakeland. And a very unwilling partner in CSX. It is not about to let go of the lakeland Auburndale route - it's backbone of Central Florida. I could see a lakeland stop being built by AAF but in North Lakeland along I4.

The proposed route in Tampa to the old Union Station (TUS) defies FECI/AAF desire for transit oriented development. This site is not ideal for new development integrated with the station. There are potential sites west and north of TUS but nothing like AAF has built in S Florida so far. Also, using TUS involves more slow speed trackage and costly viaducts. A potential station on the site of the FL HSR project site near I275 has alot of available government owned land south of I275 and near the station site. Also, the HART bus transit center is very close.

The fastest and least expensive route is to use SR528 to I4 and then west to Tampa using the median of I4 until downtown Tampa. If they use the median of I4 they can run from tampa to the orlando airport in under an hour at 125 mph with one stop. This would allow for less than 4 hours travel time from Tampa to Miami, downtown to downtown. 3 hours to WPB from Tampa. That would be competitive with driving and should be very popular as driving to downtown Miami from Tampa via I75 is not pleasant at all! As the 2006 FL Rail Plan showed, Tampa Bay to Central FL and Tampa Bay to S Florida are 2 of the 3 most heavily traveled city pairs within Florida. Central FL to S Florida is #2. TPA to CFL is #1. TPA to SFL is #3.

 

[chrsjrcj]

It looks like Brightline will go the route of named trains, but don't expect a return of the Champion and Havana Special.

https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-selling-naming-rights-stations-trains/

Brightline stations may soon be renamed by a corporate sponsor.

Patrick Goddard, president and COO of the company, told the Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce that negotiations were in progress to sell station and train naming rights, according to Miami Today.

Other details revealed:

• Tickets to and from Miami will start at the same promotional prices ($10 for Smart, $15 for Select), but only for the first month. Prices will rise from there, although discounted passes and packs will be sold
• The number of daily round trips, currently 10 or 11, will rise to 16
• Work on the Orlando segment will start in the coming months
• Bicycle, taxi and other services will be integrated into the stations
• Delay of the start of service to Miami is being caused by construction issues

 

[jis]

The fastest and least expensive route is to use SR528 to I4 and then west to Tampa using the median of I4 until downtown Tampa. If they use the median of I4 they can run from tampa to the orlando airport in under an hour at 125 mph with one stop. This would allow for less than 4 hours travel time from Tampa to Miami, downtown to downtown. 3 hours to WPB from Tampa. That would be competitive with driving and should be very popular as driving to downtown Miami from Tampa via I75 is not pleasant at all! As the 2006 FL Rail Plan showed, Tampa Bay to Central FL and Tampa Bay to S Florida are 2 of the 3 most heavily traveled city pairs within Florida. Central FL to S Florida is #2. TPA to CFL is #1. TPA to SFL is #3.

Talking very informally I get the impression that AAF would like to exit the Airport to the South, not the North. They apparently wish to use the SR417 alignment to get to I-4. This is a shorter route, with run through at the airport station rather than requiring a reversal.

Beyond that the impression I get is that they want to follow I-4. They don't care much about stopping at Lakeland. So that eliminates all the jiggery pokery with CSX that is discussed by the proposer of the scheme above. Additionally their inclination would be to place their station in the vicinity of Tampa Airport rather than at TUS. The TUS bit is a Railfan's dream that is unlikely to materialize, for the reasons you state.

AAF's style is to minimize risk for maximum transport advantage, and that would cause them to avoid downtown Lakeland and TUS. But of course, we will see. If they had owned a huge parcel of land in the downtown Lakeland, that would have changed the equation I suppose.