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darien-l

OBS Chief
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
593
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
I've run into this problem for a while now, and I'm getting sick of dealing with it. Basically, the issue is, I travel from Flagstaff, AZ to San Francisco often, but for some strange reason Arrow stopped allowing me to make this booking... not via the SWC-CS route, anyway. Try it on amtrak.com: FLG-SFS yields "no service", and FLG-SFC only yields the convoluted Bakersfield bus + San Joaquin itinerary.

After calling Amtrak and complaining about this problem a couple of times, I finally figured out a workaround: use the "multi-city" option to book FLG-OKJ and the connecting OKJ-SFS bus separately. Needless to say, it is a bit of a pain, but what annoys me most was that I've been trying to tell Amtrak about this problem since about July, and they have done nothing to fix it. Any suggestions?
 
Trogdor said:
I've passed it on. Hopefully it should be fixed next week.
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Even the itin from FLG to SFC via BFD is not right. It uses San Joaquin #715 from BFD to EMY, but then shows the bus connection as #6617. That bus is the connector for #717 and leaves over two hours after #715 arrives EMY. It should show bus #6615, the published connector for #715. Book BFD-SFC or even LAX-SFC via BFD, and the #715 to #6615 bus is shown correctly.

It does not make any difference during the trip. I'm sure you could come off #715 and get on the #6615 bus with the #6617 ticket. However, someone booking the trip using Amtrak.com would assume arrival in San Francisco is at 10:15pm when the actual arrival is 7:45pm
 
When I make the booking for tomorrow, it works fine. Gives me two San Joaquin options and the CS option. Interesting that the transfer is at Oakland Jack London rather than at Emeryville.

OK - so not to try and hijack this thread, but a simple answer should do - why does Amtrak stop at both Emeryville and Jack London Square? Why can't all pick one station or the other. I can't imagine this being any sort of time benefit. One station, one transfer to San Fran, and be done with it...
 
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VentureForth said:
OK - so not to try and hijack this thread, but a simple answer should do - why does Amtrak stop at both Emeryville and Jack London Square? Why can't all pick one station or the other. I can't imagine this being any sort of time benefit. One station, one transfer to San Fran, and be done with it...
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Do you mean completely eliminate either EMY or OKJ as a station for all trains that currently serve those stations? Just trying to get a handle on what you're asking?
 
Yes. Make ONE the stop to transfer to San Francisco and the terminus for the LD trains that serve it. Just five miles apart.
 
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Well, as the CZ cannot originate/terminate at OKJ, that would mean EMY would be the one that stays. (Unless you are open to keeping OKJ and EMY for Capitol Corridor and San Joaquin trains, just eliminating OKJ as a CS and CZ stop.) Not sure how that would go over, no longer stopping in Oakland.

Moreover, how is the current situation a problem, really? Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a solution in search of a problem.
 
There are a lot of little gliches in the Amtrak system. I travel a lot between San Francisco and Santa Barbara- no problem in getting there, but getting back at a reasonable hour is difficult. There is a bus from Santa Barbara to Bakersfield that leaves at 0605 to meet the 1000 northbound San Joaquin, but I couldn't book it on the website and had to run through two agents on the phone before I could book it with a person, and then "the system" would not allow us to book the connector bus from Emeryville to San Francisco. We just got off at Concord and took BART back home and got there by 1700, much earlier than the Amtrak website would allow. And the station agent in Santa Barbara took one look at our e-tickets and printed out a set of the old IBM punchcards for us. I guess there are some teething problems...

To descend into railfan geekiness, I was told the CZ originates at Emeryville because in the mail and express freight days, the train was too darn long and blocked traffic in Oakland.
 
pebbleworm said:
To descend into railfan geekiness, I was told the CZ originates at Emeryville because in the mail and express freight days, the train was too darn long and blocked traffic in Oakland.
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Doesn't sound right.

The Zephyr has terminated in EMY since before the Warrington-era mail & express days. Searching through some old timetables, it looked like the change from Oakland to Emeryville happend around 1994, when the Oakland station was moved (from where, exactly, I don't know).

My understanding is that the Zephyr terminates in EMY to avoid the backup move to/from the Oakland yard that would be required if the train went to OKJ.

In honestly, I don't know how big of a deal such a backup move would really be. There are a number of backup moves throughout the system (both revenue and non-rev), but I guess UP doesn't want to be bothered with tying up the railroad any longer than they have to.
 
Trogdor said:
In honestly, I don't know how big of a deal such a backup move would really be. There are a number of backup moves throughout the system (both revenue and non-rev), but I guess UP doesn't want to be bothered with tying up the railroad any longer than they have to.
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My understanding is that they wanted to stop the backup move because of the busy downtown streets and the fact that the train is running right in the middle of the street. I'm not sure if it was Amtrak or UP, or both for that matter, that felt it was getting too dangerous to make those backup moves.

And seeing as how trains on the Capitol Corridor going forward have had several accidents over the last dozen years or so, it probably was a wise decision.
 
The downside to making the reverse move with the CZ is that you've only got the backup hose back there, no headlights, no real airhorn. Whereas the Capitol Corridor sets have a cab on both ends making it such that the Engineer can be in complete control of the train with the advantage of headlights and an airhorn. Seems small, but it makes a big difference in terms of safety for the crew and the public.
 
battalion51 said:
The downside to making the reverse move with the CZ is that you've only got the backup hose back there, no headlights, no real airhorn. Whereas the Capitol Corridor sets have a cab on both ends making it such that the Engineer can be in complete control of the train with the advantage of headlights and an airhorn. Seems small, but it makes a big difference in terms of safety for the crew and the public.
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It seems to me that the solution to a backup move, if one were to somehow be wanted on a regular basis, is to just dispatch one of several yard locomotives that are always at Oakland Yard light down to OKJ and pick up the rear of the train. This is done on a semi-frequent basis for PV moves as trains like the Coast Starlight head south toward LA. But the efficency of this kind of action is left to question. The current system ain't broke... Why 'fix' it?
 
Why inconvenience one for the sake of the other? Both stations serve good purposes, and a lot of passengers to boot. Things work fine the way they are now from a train perspective.

Is it possible for Amtrak to update Arrow in some way that would make all of the connections work properly? That would seem like the better solution than killing off a station that is earning them money and passengers.
 
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Amtrak Cajun said:
Why inconvenience one for the sake of the other? Both stations serve good purposes, and a lot of passengers to boot. Things work fine the way they are now from a train perspective.

Is it possible for Amtrak to update Arrow in some way that would make all of the connections work properly? That would seem like the better solution than killing off a station that is earning them money and passengers.
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The issue at the start of the thread had nothing to do with OKJ vs. EMY.

Emeryville is used as the SF bus connection point for those traveling north/east by train. OKJ is only used as a Starlight connection point. Not sure what "issue" anyone is trying to solve here.

The fact that certain connections don't always show up has nothing to do with Oakland vs. Emeryville.
 
Trogdor said:
Amtrak Cajun said:
Why inconvenience one for the sake of the other? Both stations serve good purposes, and a lot of passengers to boot. Things work fine the way they are now from a train perspective.

Is it possible for Amtrak to update Arrow in some way that would make all of the connections work properly? That would seem like the better solution than killing off a station that is earning them money and passengers.
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The issue at the start of the thread had nothing to do with OKJ vs. EMY.

Emeryville is used as the SF bus connection point for those traveling north/east by train. OKJ is only used as a Starlight connection point. Not sure what "issue" anyone is trying to solve here.

The fact that certain connections don't always show up has nothing to do with Oakland vs. Emeryville.
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That's why I brought up the OKJ vs EMY to begin with. There seems to be a lot of confusion - lots of alternatives for transport across the bay. My question was to determine why there was a need to have two stations 5 miles apart when almost everything could be consolidated in one station with regular bus service connections available to all passengers on all trains without there being an issue of having to match up your connection in LAX with a bus to SFA.
 
VentureForth said:
That's why I brought up the OKJ vs EMY to begin with. There seems to be a lot of confusion - lots of alternatives for transport across the bay. My question was to determine why there was a need to have two stations 5 miles apart when almost everything could be consolidated in one station with regular bus service connections available to all passengers on all trains without there being an issue of having to match up your connection in LAX with a bus to SFA.
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Oakland had 379,851 passengers in 2011; Emeryville saw 583,865 last year.

That's why they don't consolidate.
 
AlanB said:
VentureForth said:
That's why I brought up the OKJ vs EMY to begin with. There seems to be a lot of confusion - lots of alternatives for transport across the bay. My question was to determine why there was a need to have two stations 5 miles apart when almost everything could be consolidated in one station with regular bus service connections available to all passengers on all trains without there being an issue of having to match up your connection in LAX with a bus to SFA.
Click to expand...
Oakland had 379,851 passengers in 2011; Emeryville saw 583,865 last year.

That's why they don't consolidate.
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Is it possible, though, to consolidate them somewhat or make one a bit larger, without losing more ridership than they'd gain from easier connections? Roughly one million people per year could be served easily by one large station (NY Penn has 9 times as many use their station.)
 
IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE BROKE TO BE IMPROVED.

But you see, Amtrak is BROKE. and BROKEN. In SO many different ways.

Sure, they can maintain the duplicity of services and run twice as many busses.

Sure you can have the same poor service.

Sure 963,716 passengers can enjoy two stations. How about 1,200,000 enjoying one station?

Really - the answer regarding UP and back up moves is WAY more plausible than counts and "If it ain't broke".
 
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They're not running twice as many buses. They'd still have to run the same number of buses. But this separation makes it easier as they don't need as big of a bus bay at each station if they were to combine things.

And customers are better served by this, since those coming northbound are on a bus on their way into San Fran, even as the is busy moving to Emeryville. The same is true for the reverse, passengers for example from the CS are already on the bridge by the time the train gets to Oakland.
 

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