Changes to the Cardinal

[jis]

Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....

Why stop there? Continue on to Denver, Salt Lake City and up to Seattle

Why stop at St. Louis? Because we do not have enough cars on hand to deploy the number of consists that will be needed to go any further than STL.

 

[Larry H.]

With the current state of things, wouldn't it still be faster to get from WAS to STL via the Capitol connecting in CHI, then extending the Cardinal to St. Louis?

Depends on which train you take, but the layover in chicago is from where I live usually lengthly at best plus there is the extra fare charge just to get to chicago from St. Louis or other points south where a direct route would most likely be more timely as well as perhaps some cheaper. One of the factors that play in our decisions to take a trip anymore is the boring 5 hour ride to chicago only to spend up to 7 hours or more in chicago killing time waiting for a train to board. Not exactly user friendly.

 

[Chris J.]

Again this is all talk, but according to others, Amtrak is seriously considering this move.

Another advantage, not yet mentioned: it reduces the load on Chicago by a bit. And given how full the Chicago platforms are, how full the Chicago waiting rooms are, how busy the maintenance crews and station agent are ... that's going to make life for everyone in Chicago (especially passengers) a little nicer.

I doubt Chicago would get much quieter. I think the Lake Shore and Capitol seem to sell out a lot so I suspect you'd just replace a bunch of passengers making Eagle to NEC connections with different bunch of passengers who currently aren't there at all because the trains east of Chicago are full.

How does subtracting a train from Chicago not make Chicago quieter? The Capitol and the Lake Shore are full now, and will continue to be full; they're not adding passengers because of this. And the track platform issues, and the maintenance workload, are absolutely going to be both lighter and more regular (same long-distance turning and maintenance every day rather than having this extra train to deal with on certain days and not others).

I think Chicago would still have the same number of trains, just it would see a daily Hoosier State instead of a Cardinal on some days. That would I think take less time to turn around than the Cardinal. How the ridership might look I'm not sure - passengers on the Cardinal route east of Indy have a change to get to Chicago (unless they do some switching in Indy) but they can now get there daily; changes generally cause a decrease in riders, daily service an increase. Daily might also spread the load over the week a bit better.

I was mainly thinking of a passenger from the Eagle who were going to DC. Currently they are a passenger in Chicago, and take a seat (or bed) on the Capitol to go east. If the Cardinal gets re-routed so they can take that from St. Louis instead that's one less person in Chicago, and one less seat used on the Capitol, but I think that just means "one more space for someone else". That said, I don't know how many passengers could avoid Chicago on a new Cardinal routing.

 

[Chris J.]

Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....

Why stop there? Continue on to Denver, Salt Lake City and up to Seattle

Why stop at St. Louis? Because we do not have enough cars on hand to deploy the number of consists that will be needed to go any further than STL.

Yes; I was taking guest's point and running with it .. to the end of the line :lol:

 

[Larry H.]

Basically to me anytime you can open a new destination with a direct service that gives many more possibilities for building ridership is a good one. The biggest flaw in the system is that there is very little system currently. Granted we need new cars to do it but if we had them I have no doubt that if even the basic 1970"s system were returned in the most part, passenger loads would be off the charts. Anyone should realize that having lines that only go a few places and often with extensive inconvenience to do so is by no means an idea situation. It kind of like saying St. Louis shouldn't have any planes going anywhere, nor should most other mid sized cities in the country, that the only way would be to go to Chicago or New York, or a few other major hubs if you wanted to fly anywhere. That is a no brainer from the start, but its how we have been told to accept rail service. If this administration is serious about using rail to encourage people out of their cars, more lines to more places instead of increasing the speed a few miles an hour on the same lines would benefit by far more passengers in a positive way.

 

[jis]

I was mainly thinking of a passenger from the Eagle who were going to DC. Currently they are a passenger in Chicago, and take a seat (or bed) on the Capitol to go east. If the Cardinal gets re-routed so they can take that from St. Louis instead that's one less person in Chicago, and one less seat used on the Capitol, but I think that just means "one more space for someone else". That said, I don't know how many passengers could avoid Chicago on a new Cardinal routing.

Same holds true for CONO passengers who can transfer at Effingham instead of schlepping over to Chicago. I am sure a few more seats and berths will open up both on the Cap and the LSL.

 

[Steve4031]

This was not even mentioned at the town hall meeting at the beginning of March in Chicago. The general attitude then was that there would be no new service or routes. How did this come to be in the last few weeks. I sure hope it happens, but this to me is completely from left based on what I heard at the meeting. Where would this equipment come from?

This is one of the expansion possibilities mentioned in the current issue of the NARP newsletter ... along with the restoration of the Desert Wind!

Thanks. This is exciting. I hope it works out.

 

[saxman]

Also heard a baggage car would come back as well. Based on past timetables I have, checked baggage was available at Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Huntington, Charleston, Prince, Charlottesville, and Alexandria. This was the 2002 TT which was not long before the train went to single level cars.

Amazing how one little tweak in the routing can gain so many connections. And it's probably not going to cost hardly anything to do so. Yay for more revenue!

 

[jis]

Amazing how one little tweak in the routing can gain so many connections. And it's probably not going to cost hardly anything to do so. Yay for more revenue!

One of the cost elements that is not fully determined yet is what CSX is going to charge for track usage between Indy and STL. There will be some additional cost too to set up STL to do end point servicing of an LD consist. Crew cost will be a wash compared to going to Chicago, except that it will be 7 days a week instead of 3, but presumably there will be considerable added revenue from those extra runs too. I don;t know how the incremental costs and revenues balance out.

 

[RRrich]

Since coming to Amtrak a few years ago I have been bothered by two things.

Firstly, most every train trip starts with going to CHI - I know that years ago CHI beat out STL as the USA's Midwest hub, but gee although the pizza is outstanding that is just not enough reason to keep going to CHI

Secondly, in STL the word CARDINAL is closely linked to STL but the Amtrak Cardinal doesn't come here. Whats up with that?

I have been reading this thread with lots of hope

 

[Rob_C]

Wow! To think the Cardinal might actually become an important link in the national system rather than just a slower train between destinations already served! LA to DC more direct via the Cardinal. Can't wait!

Rob

 

[Larry H.]

Wow! To think the Cardinal might actually become an important link in the national system rather than just a slower train between destinations already served! LA to DC more direct via the Cardinal. Can't wait!
Rob

Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. I scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[wayman]

Secondly, in STL the word CARDINAL is closely linked to STL but the Amtrak Cardinal doesn't come here. Whats up with that?

The Cardinal's name will well-serve it as the train to St Louis, but it's also a great name for the current route. The cardinal is the state bird of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Virginia.

 

[cpamtfan]

Secondly, in STL the word CARDINAL is closely linked to STL but the Amtrak Cardinal doesn't come here. Whats up with that?

The Cardinal's name will well-serve it as the train to St Louis, but it's also a great name for the current route. The cardinal is the state bird of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Virginia.

Copy cats...

 

[jis]

Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. It scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.

The plan was presented by Amtrak Product Development Chief Brian Rosenwald. He discussed this as part of a general discussion of potential improvements under consideration for the company’s overnight trains, at a Mar. 20 NARP membership meeting at Washington Union Station. So it is not like NARP dreamed it up. It came from Amtrak. Other items presented by him in the same session were:

• Daily Sunset/Eagle Service Los Angeles - San Antonio - Chicago with connecting train San Antonio - New Orleans
  
• Performance improvement plans for five LD trains viz California Zephyr, Capitol Ltd., Cardinal, Sunset Ltd. and Texas Eagle
  
• Restoration of the Desert Wind
  
• Returning the Sunset Limited to Phoenix in collaboration with the State of Arizona
  
• Earlier departure of the Capitol Limited out of Chicago
  

 

[bretton88]

I'm happy about this. This is forward thinking by Amtrak. They are taking what they have and improving it within their limited means finally. These are creative ideas that can only improve the final product (especially if they can get the SL into Phoenix). The only bummer for me, is that I was looking forward to taking the Cardinal sometime, but having it go from St Louis makes it difficult. Oh well, one small sacrifice for the better cause. On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.

 

[leemell]

Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. It scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.

The plan was presented by Amtrak Product Development Chief Brian Rosenwald. He discussed this as part of a general discussion of potential improvements under consideration for the company’s overnight trains, at a Mar. 20 NARP membership meeting at Washington Union Station. So it is not like NARP dreamed it up. It came from Amtrak. Other items presented by him in the same session were:

• Daily Sunset/Eagle Service Los Angeles - San Antonio - Chicago with connecting train San Antonio - New Orleans
  
• Performance improvement plans for five LD trains viz California Zephyr, Capitol Ltd., Cardinal, Sunset Ltd. and Texas Eagle
  
• Restoration of the Desert Wind
  
• Returning the Sunset Limited to Phoenix in collaboration with the State of Arizona
  
• Earlier departure of the Capitol Limited out of Chicago
  

Was there any time frame discussed for these changes? Especially the Cardinal as I am scheduled to take it late in the year.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. It scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.

The plan was presented by Amtrak Product Development Chief Brian Rosenwald. He discussed this as part of a general discussion of potential improvements under consideration for the company’s overnight trains, at a Mar. 20 NARP membership meeting at Washington Union Station. So it is not like NARP dreamed it up. It came from Amtrak. Other items presented by him in the same session were:

• Daily Sunset/Eagle Service Los Angeles - San Antonio - Chicago with connecting train San Antonio - New Orleans
  
• Performance improvement plans for five LD trains viz California Zephyr, Capitol Ltd., Cardinal, Sunset Ltd. and Texas Eagle
  
• Restoration of the Desert Wind
  
• Returning the Sunset Limited to Phoenix in collaboration with the State of Arizona
  
• Earlier departure of the Capitol Limited out of Chicago
  

OK, I was wondering where all this talk was coming from. If Amtrak is seriously "thinking outside the box" on these issues, then let's hope they go for it. If they get Arizona to pay for reopening the line west from Phoenix, I would consider that a minor miracle.

 

[nferr]

This is one of Amtrak's better ideas that I've heard lately. Makes a lot of sense. Hopefully they can get it done.

 

[willyvee]

On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.

The unique thing about the Desert Wind is that it provides connections from LA to Vegas and Salt Lake and points east all the way to Chicago. Yes there are a few private companies looking to run service from SoCal to Vegas, but not nearly to the extent of the Desert Wind.

 

[Rob_C]

If it terminates in St. Louis, then I would hope there would be a connecting MORR service to Kansas City making a connection with the SWC possible. Otherwise some of the important connectivity would be lost. Of course it also depends what's going on with the HF if it goes all the way to KCY or terminates somewhere earlier say Newton. Is the HF extension just a non-starter at this point or is it factoring somewhere in the mix?

 

[Larry H.]

Little off the topic but just running the river cites trains on to centralia like they did for some time and then down to carbondale or just terminating at centralia they would give much of the midwest a direct route to memphis, and new orleans without have to travel a days time out of the way. The connection is only about 70 miles, the detour to make the same trip is probably over 700 miles. Now that would be forward thinking. They did it for a while and then dropped it but I think the time is ripe to encourage passengers once again.

Another factor here is the rail fares to chicago are in the 70.00 range many days where as the trip from st. louis to centralia was more like 20.00 or so if I am guessing right. A big savings in time an money.

 

[jis]

If it terminates in St. Louis, then I would hope there would be a connecting MORR service to Kansas City making a connection with the SWC possible.

If one assumes that the Card continues to run in the current slot between WAS and Indy then yes, one will be able to connect from it to the SWC using a MORR and from SWC to it using an MORR.

 

[Michael061282]

Why not a through coach/sleeper at St. Louis from the Texas Eagle/Sunset

 

[domefoamer]

It's fun to sit and cook up new routes like this, with some slim chance that they may actually be implemented. Taking a WAS-STL route through WVA makes so much sense, providing a new path through the heart of Ohio Valley while maintaining essential service to the hills and hollers of Appalachia. Losing NYC service is trivial, since there are so many fast ways to get uo there on rails from DC.

My take on this is a little different, since last month I was a first-time passenger on No. 50, back on March 26. It was by far the worst Amtrak trip of my life (though I can claim much less mileage than most of you here). The Cardinal was packed with 80 extra pax from a cancelled Capital Limited. No extra staff or dining facilities were included in this last-minute development, so the train's poor Cafe Car staff, both of them, were overwhelmed from the start. In the first three hours out of Chicago, said the cook/clerk, they sold more food than a normal 24-hour trip. The lounge/dining car truly was a Lining Car, filled with pax lining up for up to an hour for dinner. We had 260 passengers leaving CHI: that meant each of us had a 1-in-15 chance of scoring a diner seat at any time during a meal. For about half the ride, the cafe car was closed down or sold out.

Back in my coach, the passengers in the seat ahead of me stayed up all night, watching laptop videos and carrying on long, loud conversations. Sure, it was the social magic of train travel, an instant overnight community, but it should have happened in the lounge car. But that was locked, of course, after the serving hours. It was a miserable night for me, and a hungover morning.

I'm trying to make a long story shorter here; the longer version will show up soon as a trip report. My point is simply that the Cardinal really needs to get Superliners back, or at least a separate lounge car and full diner. The current version has been pared down and cheapened so much that it's barely worth the misery. Today's Cardinal consist has no real public space for talkative night owls. It lacks sufficient dining space for a family picnic. It's equipped no better than an afternoon scenic excursion ride. It needs help, quick! It ambles through an incredibly scenic route, but I couldn't recommended it to anyone I know. I'd like to ride it again, but just not that train. The best thing I can say about the Cardinal is that it's so bad, any small improvement made would be a big improvement.