Changes to the Cardinal

[john charron]

St. Louis is a good termanal these days

and the Cardinal to St. Louis would link it to

a fine intermodal station that conntects bus, train, air and metrolink all together. You don't need a car to get to the basics in

st. Louis Anymore.

cardinals games, hotels business, courts all within walink distance or on the metrolink. People form NYc or Chicago can get around without a car.

the station is modern clean and attractive.

 

[varnish]

Any ideas on what cities between IND and STL would receive a service stop

The last train on the route (the National Limited) stopped in Terra Haute and Effingham. Effingham's still in use, but I have clue what condition the tracks are in. It took about 4 1/2 hours in the 1970s.

If a train could do it in 4 1/2 hrs that sounds like pretty good going. Google maps reckons 4hrs 20 on I-70 without stopping.

Did it stop at the same station in Effingham? It looks like the Amtrak station is on a north-south line but St.Louis to Indy would be on an west-east one

Effingham's station is at the diamond xng CN/CSX....serves both, potentially, as it did '' in the old days'' of PRR/IC

Cheers

 

[Montanan]

The old Terre Haute Amtrak station was at 700 North 7th. Looking at Google Maps, the site now appears to be occupied by a modern apartment building ... presumably geared towards students at Indiana State University. You can see what might be remnants of the old platform along the north side of the tracks there.

 

[alanh]

From looking at an old topo map, the New York Central station appears to have been where the parking lot on the SW corner is -- they may actually be parking on the station foundation.

The Union Station (1893-1960) was on the SW corner of what's now Spruce and 10th St. More info on that station here. Map showing old track routes

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013

Would that mean that Amtrak would be paying the states that the Acela runs through for the Acela's operating profit instead of using the Acela operating profit to help pay for the long distance network?

 

[jis]

so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013

Would that mean that Amtrak would be paying the states that the Acela runs through for the Acela's operating profit instead of using the Acela operating profit to help pay for the long distance network?

The so called mandate does not include the Northeast Corridor.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013, what would this mean for the hoosier state? would indiana have to pay for it regardless of this change? i know that mandate will also affect the empire service.

I think so, unless the Hoosier State is replaced by a specific connecting train to the Cardinal in which case it might be considered a "stub train" and as such part of the national network. It clearly is not a corridor!

 

[bretton88]

so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013, what would this mean for the hoosier state? would indiana have to pay for it regardless of this change? i know that mandate will also affect the empire service.

I think so, unless the Hoosier State is replaced by a specific connecting train to the Cardinal in which case it might be considered a "stub train" and as such part of the national network. It clearly is not a corridor!

And Indiana has shown very little inclination to support it. So if, somehow, the Hoosier state somehow doesn't get "grandfathered" into the national system, it will probably die. Unless a miracle happens in Indianapolis.

 

[jis]

And Indiana has shown very little inclination to support it. So if, somehow, the Hoosier state somehow doesn't get "grandfathered" into the national system, it will probably die. Unless a miracle happens in Indianapolis.

The Hoosier State will survive using whatever sweet interpretation of mandates is necessary. It is the hospital train for moving equipment from Chicago to Beech Grove and back.

 

[Rafi]

And Indiana has shown very little inclination to support it. So if, somehow, the Hoosier state somehow doesn't get "grandfathered" into the national system, it will probably die. Unless a miracle happens in Indianapolis.

The Hoosier State will survive using whatever sweet interpretation of mandates is necessary. It is the hospital train for moving equipment from Chicago to Beech Grove and back.

Agreed. All of the proposed changes I've heard about include retaining the Hoosier State in some way.

Rafi

 

[PaulM]

... river cites trains on to centralia like they did for some time and then down to carbondale or just terminating at centralia they would give much of the midwest a direct route to memphis, and new orleans without have to travel a days time out of the way.

Ah, the River Cities. My all time favorite train ride and by far the oddest consist - a heritage sleeper and dome coach. I was the only passenger on the St. Louis - Centralia segment.

I suspect it was one of the few trains whose discontinuance was due primarily to a lack of customers. Actually, I believe it was planned only to run during the year of the NO world's fair, but lasted two years.

 

[shadrach]

!hi! New member and first post!

The talk of the Cardinal terminating in St. Louis has me all a flutter. I live in St. Louis and Love Amtrak.(this got me to register.)

I've always wanted the National Limited to return but this is just as good!

Any updates? What's the reality of this happening? Any one know? Thanks for your reply.

cheers!

 

[Guest]

!hi! New member and first post!
The talk of the Cardinal terminating in St. Louis has me all a flutter. I live in St. Louis and Love Amtrak.(this got me to register.)

I've always wanted the National Limited to return but this is just as good!

Any updates? What's the reality of this happening? Any one know? Thanks for your reply.

cheers!

This is just a talking point @ this time, more likely it will go back to Superliners when Beech grove finishes the wreck rehabs, then run WAS-CHI!

Perhaps they could run a stub train from Indianapolis to STL with single level equipment IF Ind and Missouri were willing to pay the freight, Amtrak is not going to pay fopr any more state trains!

 

[kentuckian1977]

!hi! New member and first post!
The talk of the Cardinal terminating in St. Louis has me all a flutter. I live in St. Louis and Love Amtrak.(this got me to register.)

I've always wanted the National Limited to return but this is just as good!

Any updates? What's the reality of this happening? Any one know? Thanks for your reply.

cheers!

This is just a talking point @ this time, more likely it will go back to Superliners when Beech grove finishes the wreck rehabs, then run WAS-CHI!

Perhaps they could run a stub train from Indianapolis to STL with single level equipment IF Ind and Missouri were willing to pay the freight, Amtrak is not going to pay fopr any more state trains!

I hope they make it daily and with Superliners again.

 

[Larry H.]

!hi! New member and first post!
The talk of the Cardinal terminating in St. Louis has me all a flutter. I live in St. Louis and Love Amtrak.(this got me to register.)

I've always wanted the National Limited to return but this is just as good!

Any updates? What's the reality of this happening? Any one know? Thanks for your reply.

cheers!

This is just a talking point @ this time, more likely it will go back to Superliners when Beech grove finishes the wreck rehabs, then run WAS-CHI!

Perhaps they could run a stub train from Indianapolis to STL with single level equipment IF Ind and Missouri were willing to pay the freight, Amtrak is not going to pay fopr any more state trains!

I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.

 

[Eric S]

I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.

I think Guest meant that an IND-STL train, not a WAS-STL Cardinal, would be considered a "state train" unless I misunderstood. However, I agree that the distinction between national and "state" or "regional" trains can be difficult to make at times and tends to be detrimental to the development of new (or restored) trains.

 

[Larry H.]

I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.

I think Guest meant that an IND-STL train, not a WAS-STL Cardinal, would be considered a "state train" unless I misunderstood. However, I agree that the distinction between national and "state" or "regional" trains can be difficult to make at times and tends to be detrimental to the development of new (or restored) trains.

Just curious, is the Boston leg of the Lake Shore a "state train"? What ever happened to trains that branched out to serve several similar end points but were of the same train.. Hardly state trains in my humble opinion, but then as I said the whole concept has be bastardized by the powers that be to the point that a national rail service is almost a joke..

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

If the Cardinal goes Superliner, doesn't that mean they'll be taking the sets from the Cap?

 

[jis]

If the Cardinal goes Superliner, doesn't that mean they'll be taking the sets from the Cap?

Well, there are a few parts to the story.

Part 1 is same day turn for Cap consist in Washington DC, thus releasing one Cap consist, which effectively can be split up to form 2 Card consists. That would be sufficient to convert the Card on its thrice weekly (actually even 4 times a week) schedule to Supers serving WAS - CHI, or even WAS - STL.

Part 1a. If two additional coaches and sleepers can be found then there could be 4 times a week service CHI-WAS as well as CHI - STL by transferring 1 coach and 1 sleeper to a IND - CHI train (851/852?) at IND from a WAS - STL train (51/52?).

Part 2 Find another consist from Beech Grove and elsewhere to fill in the remaining 3 days left unserved by Part 1 to make it a daily through service either to CHI or STL, but not both.

Part 2a Find 3 more sleepers and 3 more Coaches and a coach and a sleeper could then be transferred from 51/52 to 851/852 at IND to provide daily through CHI - WAS service too.

Since 851/852 have to act as a hospital train anyway, it would make sense to keep them as is as a IND - CHI train connecting to 51/52 CHI - STL train. should 51/52 become a WAS - STL train that is.

It all depends on how much equipment can be scoured up

This is my understanding from a quick back of the envelope scribbling, and of course I could have missed something, which I am sure some astute observer on this board will correct.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

So then you keep the Cap super liner but then you only have two sets, that's stretching it pretty thin, even for Amtrak...

 

[jis]

So then you keep the Cap super liner but then you only have two sets, that's stretching it pretty thin, even for Amtrak...

That may very well be why this won't happen. But that would also prove that Amtrak is unable to do what railways elsewhere in the world routinely do for a train with a running time of 16 to 18 hours.

Naturally there would have to be some spares available to substitute for an occasional bad ordered car. But that you have to have anyway.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

This sounds like it will end with a canceled train becoming commonplace, if one of these are hopelessly delayed...

 

[jis]

This sounds like it will end with a canceled train becoming commonplace, if one of these are hopelessly delayed...

Schedule reliability or lack thereof is indeed a serious issue and could very well be the reason that this will not happen.

 

[Eric S]

I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.

I think Guest meant that an IND-STL train, not a WAS-STL Cardinal, would be considered a "state train" unless I misunderstood. However, I agree that the distinction between national and "state" or "regional" trains can be difficult to make at times and tends to be detrimental to the development of new (or restored) trains.

Just curious, is the Boston leg of the Lake Shore a "state train"? What ever happened to trains that branched out to serve several similar end points but were of the same train.. Hardly state trains in my humble opinion, but then as I said the whole concept has be bastardized by the powers that be to the point that a national rail service is almost a joke..

To the best of my knowledge, the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited is not a "state train" (almost positive it is not subsidized by Massachuetts), just part of the Lake Shore Limited, a train which is part of the national system. I suppose if the Cardinal operated with a Chicago section (WAS-CHI) and a St. Louis section (WAS-STL), with the train splitting/joining in IND, then neither section would be a "state train" requiring state/regional funding.

 

[John]

I see the Cardinal added Check baggage again.