Changes to the Cardinal

[Green Maned Lion]

Why not a through coach/sleeper at St. Louis from the Texas Eagle/Sunset

The ideas behind a lot of this stuff is to maximize usage of equipment, an attempt to improve efficiencies without either over-stressing equipment or decreasing spare availability. Amtrak's system is stretched tighter than a violin. Cars for such dreams do not exist.

I know for a solid fact that there are tons of projects Amtrak would like to undertake (mostly involving toying with through cars) if they had the equipment to do them.

 

[leemell]

On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.

The unique thing about the Desert Wind is that it provides connections from LA to Vegas and Salt Lake and points east all the way to Chicago. Yes there are a few private companies looking to run service from SoCal to Vegas, but not nearly to the extent of the Desert Wind.

Assuming Desertxpress does what it says, there will be a train every 30 minutes. I think that might be more that any Desert Wind.

 

[willyvee]

On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.

The unique thing about the Desert Wind is that it provides connections from LA to Vegas and Salt Lake and points east all the way to Chicago. Yes there are a few private companies looking to run service from SoCal to Vegas, but not nearly to the extent of the Desert Wind.

Assuming Desertxpress does what it says, there will be a train every 30 minutes. I think that might be more that any Desert Wind.

Will DesertXpress run all the way to Chicago, or even Salt Lake?

 

[leemell]

On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.

The unique thing about the Desert Wind is that it provides connections from LA to Vegas and Salt Lake and points east all the way to Chicago. Yes there are a few private companies looking to run service from SoCal to Vegas, but not nearly to the extent of the Desert Wind.

Assuming Desertxpress does what it says, there will be a train every 30 minutes. I think that might be more that any Desert Wind.

Will DesertXpress run all the way to Chicago, or even Salt Lake?

By extent I though you meant amount (number of trains) of service from So Cal to Vegas.

 

[greatcats]

It's fun to sit and cook up new routes like this, with some slim chance that they may actually be implemented. Taking a WAS-STL route through WVA makes so much sense, providing a new path through the heart of Ohio Valley while maintaining essential service to the hills and hollers of Appalachia. Losing NYC service is trivial, since there are so many fast ways to get uo there on rails from DC.
My take on this is a little different, since last month I was a first-time passenger on No. 50, back on March 26. It was by far the worst Amtrak trip of my life (though I can claim much less mileage than most of you here). The Cardinal was packed with 80 extra pax from a cancelled Capital Limited. No extra staff or dining facilities were included in this last-minute development, so the train's poor Cafe Car staff, both of them, were overwhelmed from the start. In the first three hours out of Chicago, said the cook/clerk, they sold more food than a normal 24-hour trip. The lounge/dining car truly was a Lining Car, filled with pax lining up for up to an hour for dinner. We had 260 passengers leaving CHI: that meant each of us had a 1-in-15 chance of scoring a diner seat at any time during a meal. For about half the ride, the cafe car was closed down or sold out.

Back in my coach, the passengers in the seat ahead of me stayed up all night, watching laptop videos and carrying on long, loud conversations. Sure, it was the social magic of train travel, an instant overnight community, but it should have happened in the lounge car. But that was locked, of course, after the serving hours. It was a miserable night for me, and a hungover morning.

I'm trying to make a long story shorter here; the longer version will show up soon as a trip report. My point is simply that the Cardinal really needs to get Superliners back, or at least a separate lounge car and full diner. The current version has been pared down and cheapened so much that it's barely worth the misery. Today's Cardinal consist has no real public space for talkative night owls. It lacks sufficient dining space for a family picnic. It's equipped no better than an afternoon scenic excursion ride. It needs help, quick! It ambles through an incredibly scenic route, but I couldn't recommended it to anyone I know. I'd like to ride it again, but just not that train. The best thing I can say about the Cardinal is that it's so bad, any small improvement made would be a big improvement.

Your trip on the Cardinal does indeed sound like a horror show. I think it was irresponsble of Amtrak to overload with so many passengers that the staff could not cope with the situation. as you will see in my Travelogue report ( Flagstaff-Washington, DC 0 i had a pretty good trip on the Cardinal. I knew what to expect in terms of the consist - my sleeper was fine except for a lukeewarm shower and the food was acceptable. Obviously the train needs to be upgraded and run daily, but apparently there is insuffiecient equipment at this time to pull that off, but they are working on new ideas.

 

[DAWall]

I think this is a fantastic idea, it makes so much sense that it's almost scary, that Amtrak came up with the idea on there own. But a couple of things have gotten lost, as to why this makes so much sense.

A. If the Cardinal goes daily to Chicago, What happens to the Hoosier State? This is Amtraks primary hospital train between Chi and Beech Grove. While I would love to see another daily train between Chicago and Indianapolis, I can't see Amtrak putting two daily trains over the same route (at least not this one). So now, how do you get the hospital cars to Beech Grove. 1. Special Moves? That's not economical to do. 2. Add the hospital cars to the back of the Cardinal. Then you incur the cost's of switching out the car in Indianapolis, and you still have to pay to get them from Indianapolis Union Station out to Beech Grove.

So what do you do?

B. If you make the Cardinal Daily to St Louis, then the Hoosier State becomes the daily service to Chicago from Indianapolis. Amtrak retains its primary hospital train, from Beech Grove to Chicago and now it operates daily, you have no additional switching costs since the train is made up in Beech Grove, and heads directly to Ind Union Station. The Cardinal to St Louis then gives Midwesterners more direct access to southwest and west coast, and maybe New Orleans (and Florida if the CONO connection actually happens) The tracks from Indianapolis to St Louis are in excellent condition, this is part of the former NYC main from St Louis to Cleveland. Most of it is double tracked, and if Stack trains are already doing 60 MPH, then there is no reason to think the Cardinal wouldn't be allowed to do 70, or maybe 79, but that might entail retiming some grade crossing approach's. A little history, the National Limited (Amtraks) used the Pennsylvania tracks between Indianapolis, and Terre Haute. those tracks were abandoned in the early 80's shortly after the National Limited was canceled, and Conrail then moved all it's traffic over to the near parallel NYC line. The NYC (CSX) line to St Louis is far from being at capacity, I know this from talking with CSX workers that work at Avon Yard just west of Indianapolis. I don't think Amtrak would have any problem getting premission to operate over this section of track.

I hope this is one idea that Amtrak follows through with. It's so simple I don't know why, no one has thought about it sooner. Its a win win. And if they do some minor upgrades to the Hoosier State i.e checked baggage and maybe food service. Us folks midwest folks will have a much more user friendly Amtrak with far more connections, and for the most important part. Not a lot of additional cost.

 

[MrFSS]

I think this is a fantastic idea, it makes so much sense that it's almost scary, that Amtrak came up with the idea on there own. But a couple of things have gotten lost, as to why this makes so much sense.
A. If the Cardinal goes daily to Chicago, What happens to the Hoosier State? This is Amtraks primary hospital train between Chi and Beech Grove. While I would love to see another daily train between Chicago and Indianapolis, I can't see Amtrak putting two daily trains over the same route (at least not this one). So now, how do you get the hospital cars to Beech Grove. 1. Special Moves? That's not economical to do. 2. Add the hospital cars to the back of the Cardinal. Then you incur the cost's of switching out the car in Indianapolis, and you still have to pay to get them from Indianapolis Union Station out to Beech Grove.

So what do you do?

B. If you make the Cardinal Daily to St Louis, then the Hoosier State becomes the daily service to Chicago from Indianapolis. Amtrak retains its primary hospital train, from Beech Grove to Chicago and now it operates daily, you have no additional switching costs since the train is made up in Beech Grove, and heads directly to Ind Union Station. The Cardinal to St Louis then gives Midwesterners more direct access to southwest and west coast, and maybe New Orleans (and Florida if the CONO connection actually happens) The tracks from Indianapolis to St Louis are in excellent condition, this is part of the former NYC main from St Louis to Cleveland. Most of it is double tracked, and if Stack trains are already doing 60 MPH, then there is no reason to think the Cardinal wouldn't be allowed to do 70, or maybe 79, but that might entail retiming some grade crossing approach's. A little history, the National Limited (Amtraks) used the Pennsylvania tracks between Indianapolis, and Terre Haute. those tracks were abandoned in the early 80's shortly after the National Limited was canceled, and Conrail then moved all it's traffic over to the near parallel NYC line. The NYC (CSX) line to St Louis is far from being at capacity, I know this from talking with CSX workers that work at Avon Yard just west of Indianapolis. I don't think Amtrak would have any problem getting premission to operate over this section of track.

I hope this is one idea that Amtrak follows through with. It's so simple I don't know why, no one has thought about it sooner. Its a win win. And if they do some minor upgrades to the Hoosier State i.e checked baggage and maybe food service. Us folks midwest folks will have a much more user friendly Amtrak with far more connections, and for the most important part. Not a lot of additional cost.

Amtrak uses The Cardinal to move cars to/from Beech Grove - not a problem.

 

[DaveKCMO]

23 hours to DC though amazing scenery sounds great! i would probably use this often to get to indy and cincy, too. would this make a connection with CONO possible? if so, i would also use this for a trip to memphis and NOLA.

 

[Lake Country]

I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.
Okay, looking at schedules, I can answer my own question: Because then you'd need to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati, and you'd probably need another trainset to do that. (But, looking at the schedule again, maybe not. How long does it take to turn [clean, service, etc.] a train? And maybe it would only require servicing once a day.)

For one, you'd gain no connections by doing so.

The tracks from Indy to St. Louis are in good condition, on a busy CSX mainline, with freight trains running at 60 mph. Passenger trains could probably do 70.

All the MWHSR plans have a Chicago to Cincy route planned that may run as many as 6 trains per day, even now the Hoosier would be well served to extend beyond Indy and become a Chi-Cincy city pair with Indy and Lafayette station stops. By routing the Cardinal from Cincy-L'vile-E'ville-St. L you would connect some regional cities that are not served at all. And still be able to connect with the CONO in Centralia.

 

[Larry H.]

I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.
Okay, looking at schedules, I can answer my own question: Because then you'd need to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati, and you'd probably need another trainset to do that. (But, looking at the schedule again, maybe not. How long does it take to turn [clean, service, etc.] a train? And maybe it would only require servicing once a day.)

For one, you'd gain no connections by doing so.

The tracks from Indy to St. Louis are in good condition, on a busy CSX mainline, with freight trains running at 60 mph. Passenger trains could probably do 70.

All the MWHSR plans have a Chicago to Cincy route planned that may run as many as 6 trains per day, even now the Hoosier would be well served to extend beyond Indy and become a Chi-Cincy city pair with Indy and Lafayette station stops. By routing the Cardinal from Cincy-L'vile-E'ville-St. L you would connect some regional cities that are not served at all. And still be able to connect with the CONO in Centralia.

The connection to the City is at Effingham, a stop farther north from Centralia. That station is on a wedge sort of setting and serves both tracks when they were in passenger use. I wish it did go though Centralia and to St. Louis as it would give me direct service east and west, something that would be nice. Actually the town I live in Odin, is on the City route and also has a cross over for the CSX, going east and west, not sure where it ends up on the eastern end?

Either way we could get one of the three daily trains north to catch the Cardinal if it stops in Effingham, that would be such a blessing over having to go to Chicago every time you want to go east. I only hope they treat the new train better than they did the National Limited which ran with a very poor selection of cars in comparison to wonderful left over heritage cars that were gracing the trains out of chicago at the time. I still contend that people appreciate and vote with their patronage a nicer train than a very basic and skimpy version. I know I do.

 

[kentuckian1977]

Has anyone heard anything regarding a possible time line on when this might happen? When might enough Superliners be available? I'm hoping they put the Superliners back on and make the Cardinal a daily ASAP, even if they do it before the St. Louis reroute (which I agree is a great idea) is possible.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Has anyone heard anything regarding a possible time line on when this might happen? When might enough Superliners be available? I'm hoping they put the Superliners back on and make the Cardinal a daily ASAP, even if they do it before the St. Louis reroute (which I agree is a great idea) is possible.

Right now it seems to be in the "thinking" stage which could last, O I don't know, a decade or so! LOL. Seriously, I wouldn't try to buy a ticket yet. Look at the Texas Eagle/Sunset changes. That's been talked about for a year or so, or maybe more, and there's not an official start date for that yet. Anything involving railroad changes moves at a snail's pace.

 

[Rafi]

I've kept quiet on this thread so far, mainly because the information about the possible change has been fairly accurate. But let's not jump ahead here and assume this is a done deal. Amtrak is in the middle of preparing ridership and revenue projections for a NUMBER of Cardinal adjustments (not all of which take the train to St. Louis). Once those are compiled, a recommendation will be made from the Product Development group, and the it gets run up the flagpole. As a matter of perspective, there are plenty of other cases where plans that made a ton of sense to many never got actually implemented for a variety of reasons, the most obvious being the Crescent Star, of course.

So let's calm down until we see something official. Folks on this board know that I've been championing at St. Louis routing of the Cardinal for YEARS now, so I can't even begin to express my hopes for this change, but frankly, it's a long shot. Not impossible, but let's just say that there's a lot of skepticism until those numbers come in. There are those that believe that Chicago is the ONLY hub, the center of the universe, and that a daily Cardinal to Chicago would have better ridership than a daily Cardinal to St. Louis. Of course, splitting the consist in Indy addresses that (turn half of the train into the Hoosier State without requiring a cross platform transfer), but that's not really the point. To make a change this big at Amtrak often takes a ton of meetings and years of planning (witness how long the Texas Eagle/Sunset plan has taken). To top it off, there's no real TEMPO equivalent (with big-time power players) jockeying for this move, and Indiana is a notoriously difficult Government Affairs partner with whom to work. So if this goes through, it will be a badge of achievement on Amtrak's lapel, because frankly, these sorts of changes usually happen with state or local community leaders leading the charge with checkbooks in hand. In this case, we have some very vocal Cardinal groups doing their best to bend ears, but nothing (as far as I know) has been taken to Indiana or Missouri to investigate partnering possibilities yet.

Bottom line: it's very, very, very early.

Rafi

 

[Larry H.]

And at least 35 years too late!

 

[DaveKCMO]

so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013, what would this mean for the hoosier state? would indiana have to pay for it regardless of this change? i know that mandate will also affect the empire service.

 

[afigg]

So let's calm down until we see something official. Folks on this board know that I've been championing at St. Louis routing of the Cardinal for YEARS now, so I can't even begin to express my hopes for this change, but frankly, it's a long shot. Not impossible, but let's just say that there's a lot of skepticism until those numbers come in. There are those that believe that Chicago is the ONLY hub, the center of the universe, and that a daily Cardinal to Chicago would have better ridership than a daily Cardinal to St. Louis. Of course, splitting the consist in Indy addresses that (turn half of the train into the Hoosier State without requiring a cross platform transfer), but that's not really the point. To make a change this big at Amtrak often takes a ton of meetings and years of planning (witness how long the Texas Eagle/Sunset plan has taken). To top it off, there's no real TEMPO equivalent (with big-time power players) jockeying for this move, and Indiana is a notoriously difficult Government Affairs partner with whom to work. So if this goes through, it will be a badge of achievement on Amtrak's lapel, because frankly, these sorts of changes usually happen with state or local community leaders leading the charge with checkbooks in hand. In this case, we have some very vocal Cardinal groups doing their best to bend ears, but nothing (as far as I know) has been taken to Indiana or Missouri to investigate partnering possibilities yet.

It appears to be safe to say that any shift of the Cardinal to St. Louis is some ways off, if it does happen. For one thing, is there a old station in Terre Haute that could be refurbished? Or would Amtrak have to start from scratch there? Which could take years after Amtrak decides that changing the destination to St. Louis is a good idea by the time they get through the local political process, do the studies and design to build a station, then actually get the funding, put out for bids, award the contracts and then finally build a station. Would Amtrak switch the service to St. Louis without having a station ready at Terre Haute? Is the station at Effingham ready to support operations on the CSX line? Or would a new platform and other work be needed? If there is one thing I get from reading these rail forms, is that Amtrak does not move quickly - for a whole bunch of reasons.

Wonder how much the recent HSR stimulus grant of $1.1 billion to the Chicago-St. Louis corridor and $31 million to Missouri for the St. Louis-Kansas City route is a factor in Amtrak now considering this shift? Ridership was up 11.6% on the Lincoln service and 15.8% on the River Runner service for the first 6 months of FY10 with even bigger increases in March 2010 compared to March 2009. As the run times improve on the Chicago-St. Louis corridor and then 2 additional daily trains are added, passenger traffic to and from St. Louis will significantly increase. That will make St. Louis a more viable stop for the Cardinal with all the additional advantages of the connections across the mid-West that have been discussed here. If there is funding awarded to the Chicago-Indianapolis corridor in the next go-around from the HSR FY10 $2.5 billion funding, that would expand the Hoosier state service possibly with increased daily frequency which might tilt the decision to switch the Cardinal to St. Louis.

 

[Larry H.]

I don't see much reason to think they worry about the condition of the stations. Have you ever seen the Mattoon station? Talk about a disgrace both from the train point of view as well as street level? Effingham appears to have a rather stable station that most likely could almost immediately start being used. And really why would it matter at all, Centralia torn down their station and the train just stopped at the road crossing without and ticket agent or station for years till the city of Centralia at least built a tiny replacement for the old one which they foolishly tore down. Not sure about Terre Haute, I get that way now and then but haven't really looked at the station there. But from the experience with Centralia I don't see why they would have to have a working station at all since they didn't have one here.

 

[MattW]

I'm not an expert so take this for what it is, but I did some Google-Mapping of Terre Haute, and it looks like the rail line goes right along the northern border of the University there. I didn't find an obvious station, but if one were to placed near the University, you'd probably get A LOT of college kids using the train to Indianapolis or Chicago.

 

[JayPea]

I don't see much reason to think they worry about the condition of the stations. Have you ever seen the Mattoon station? Talk about a disgrace both from the train point of view as well as street level?

Larry, I've seen the Mattoon station and it is exactly that, a disgrace. Heck, if I lived near there I'd at least volunteer my time to at least make it look presentable. It might take awhile, but...............

 

[Larry H.]

I don't see much reason to think they worry about the condition of the stations. Have you ever seen the Mattoon station? Talk about a disgrace both from the train point of view as well as street level?

Larry, I've seen the Mattoon station and it is exactly that, a disgrace. Heck, if I lived near there I'd at least volunteer my time to at least make it look presentable. It might take awhile, but...............

A couple years ago by now I wrote a letter to the Editor about the view from amtrak of their city. They agreed that the thing was a mess but claimed some kind of commission was looking into it, but from what I have seen other trips nothing much has been done, however I haven't been up there the past year I think.

 

[Larry H.]

I'm not an expert so take this for what it is, but I did some Google-Mapping of Terre Haute, and it looks like the rail line goes right along the northern border of the University there. I didn't find an obvious station, but if one were to placed near the University, you'd probably get A LOT of college kids using the train to Indianapolis or Chicago.

Yes there is a large private college right two blocks from the main down town area and it helps to keep the old part of the city a bit more active than some. I am not sure either as to where the east/west tracks go though town but I have a feeling its close to that downtown location. Your right should be a good student option for transportation as is the illinois local trains.

 

[Rafi]

Re: Terre Haute, everything I'm hearing is that a new platform/station structure would need to be created. But, in my opinion, that the station would be a hit with college kids is an understatement. As far as Effingham goes, some platform reconditioning is in order, but for the most part, Effingham is ready to roll and the Cardinal would connect quite conveniently with the CoNOL based on the concept schedules.

Rafi

 

[Larry H.]

Re: Terre Haute, everything I'm hearing is that a new platform/station structure would need to be created. But, in my opinion, that the station would be a hit with college kids is an understatement. As far as Effingham goes, some platform reconditioning is in order, but for the most part, Effingham is ready to roll and the Cardinal would connect quite conveniently with the CoNOL based on the concept schedules.
Rafi

That would be a joy to those of us tired of 30 years of sitting in chicago to go east, its one of the big turn offs of the trip. If they were really forward thinking that idea of a though car to connect with the Southwest Chief or Texas Eagle would be a terrific idea I would think. But the train really needs to be a forward looking consist or its just another limited ridership string of cars to me.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The big hurdle to this isn't stations or cars, I don't think. Its politics.

 

[Larry H.]

As usual..