creddick
Service Attendant
Is there any possibility there may be a Chicago-Florida train again? Are there any plans at all for one?
And that will probably take longer than the current Capital Limited switch to Silver Service option in Washington scenario.One of the proposals to restore the SL-East is to extend the CONO from CHI-NOL-Florida. But as of now, that is only a proposed proposal that they are looking at.
Hey don't forget about Greyhound! :lol:Frankly, a CHI-FL train via Atlanta makes loads of sense. I can pretty well guarantee you that the train would gets lots of GA-FL traffic off of I-75 especially an overnight train. People could get off work, catch the train and be in Florida the next morning. CHI-FL has got to be a big market with only airline service currently available!
Yes 35 hours and 2 transfers later :blink:Hey don't forget about Greyhound! :lol:
Interesting points.As a Midwesterner myself, I would also like to have a direct CUS - FL train, but it is just not in the works, unless one has the money to upgrade the tracks in several locations. Several other segments of track that were used in days gone by no longer exist, or are now owned by shortlines, and not maintained to passenger RR standards.
We have also address this topic on numerous occasions in the past. Some members of the Forum here, who are civil engineers, can weigh in on the various routings and itineraries, as well as the engineering challenges to going across the grain of the Appalachians, as suggested by one of the pervious posters.
There is the issue that the CHI & Upper Midwest market is just not the same size as the NYC - FLA market. Also, those of us who live in the Upper Midwest have been inclined to go to Southern TX, or Southern AZ, or Mexico, even in historic times. There just isn't the predisposition to go to FLA to the same degree as Northeasterners. To quote Craig Sanders, on Page 90 of Amtrak In The Heartland,: "The Floridian often had good loads during the winter, and the Midwest - Florida market is vast. Amtrak's New York - Florida route is popular, so why couldn't a Chicago - Florida route have similar success? The answer lies in the differences between the markets. Railroads offering New York - Florida service in the 1960s made money and offered high-quality service. Railroads in the Midwest - Florida market saw it as futile and eliminated or downgraded their trains. Chicago - Miami is 80 miles longer than New York - Miami, but because of route configurations, the best time Amtrak might muster is 7 hours longer than the New York route. Amtrak's 1990 report observed that states along the Chicago - Florida route generate 60 percent of the travel volume of the Northeast - Florida market. Yet with a population 45 percent of New York, Chicago generated 30 percent as many airline trips to Florida. 'This seems to suggest that there may be less of a Midwestern affinity, as compared to New York, to travel to Florida by common carrier,' the report concluded."
An additional issue one has to contend with is drive time. Many Midwesterners can drive straight through from Southern WI to Florida in about 24 hours, give or take. The fastest of the historic CHI - FL trains covered the distance in about 36 hours. There would also have to be considerable track upgrades in KY, TN, GA, and possibly AL in order to increase maximum permissible and (more importantly) average overall speeds. What are the advantages to riding the train for possibly a longer time, arriving in one's destination, only to have to rent a car anyways ? For a route like this to work, you have to offer reliable service, time competitive with auto travel, in order to get Midwesterners out of their cars.
One resource I found is a website that lists the historic schedules for trains. We can compare the schedules for NYC - FL and CHI - FL trains. Streamliner Schedules.
Thanks George for the info. If it had to go to a 36 hour schedule then the former Southern route over the rathole would compare. How are the possibilities on that line?This topic has been discussed multiple times on this site.
When looking favorable at the "Dixieland's" route, it should be remembered that this was the first of the "fast three" to die.
To summarize previous discussion:
The fastest and most popular, the City of Miami through Jackson TN, Birmingham, and Columbus GA is no longer possible. Critical segments of the route have eitehr been abandoned or become slow speed short lines.
The South Wind route, which became the Amtrak Floridian's route would need major work between Chicago and Indianapolis and between Montgomery and Waycross GA to have a decently fast schedule.
The Dixieland route, while all in place and all with CTC signalling and higging the most centers of population, although missing such places as Indianapolis and Louisville in favor of Evansville IN, is very congested with freight, very curvey across northern Georgia and with reductions in Superelevation on many curves could not support the speeds of the past, nor given the current realitiies where the train could not be "given the road" there is no way the former schedule could even be approached.
Bill, great history of the Chicago-Florida service. One thing that is important is the timing. All three of these trains made the Chi-JAX leg in around 24 hours. Southbound leaving Chi in the morning with a next morning arrival in JAX. Northbound leaving JAX in the evening with a next evening arrival in Chi, thus a one night trip. The Southern's trains took something like 30+ hours and two nights. Amtrak's Floridian in the timetable I could find was on a 29 1/2 hour schedule. A morning departure from Chi and a next afternoon arrival in Jax. Northbound it was an afternoon departure from Jax and a next morning arrival in Chi. All these trains of course continued on to St Petersburg and Miami. If a revived 'Dixieland' could at least maintain this schedule it would still be a viable train with a faster schedule than using the CL or the CONO as both these routes require a two night out schedule. The route through Nashville, Chattanooga and Atlanta would seem to be the best as neither Nashville or Chattanooga have passenger service at the moment and Atlanta needs the Chi and Florida connection. To run a service like this all the way to Miami would require four sets of equipment. Not likely any time soon unfortunately.The history of CHI to FLA service is very rich and quite complicated.
The pivitol moment was in 1940 when three new lightweight steamliners were put in service.
These were the Dixie Flagler via Evansville,Nashville,Chattanooga,Atlanta,Jax. The South Wind via Indy, Louisville,Nashville,Birmingham, Montgomery,JK: the City of Miami via Carbondale,Fulton,Birmingham,Columbus,Albany,Jax..
These trains each operated every third day. They ran in rotation with each other, thus one train a day but on three different routes. Between CHI and JAX the only stops they had in common was that the Flagler and the South Wind both stopped in Nashville. The South WInd and the City both stopped in Birmingham.
For many years, the times in and out of Chicago and every station between JAX and Miami were identical. Just to make up a time, say each left CHI at 9 a.m and each arrived in MIA the next afternoon at 5.25. This lasted for years but it eventually became too much trouble to keep up. Since the SW route was longest that meant it had the fastest mph. Since the Flagler's route was shortest it had the slowest mph since for many years the end point times were the same.
Amtrak's Floridian made several flip-flops in schedule over its tortured life.
On Amtrak day 1, it was given what had been essentially the South Wind's schedule. However, the slide of Pen Central's track into slow, rough, and unreliable made this untenable. At the same time the L&N was becoming infested with slow orders and unreliablilty. The SAL south of Montgomery was not much better. As a result, the schedule was lengthened. it was then flipped a couple of times between night-day night- and then day-night-day with a really late night arrival in Miami. I do not remeber in what order or how many times this occurred. The route north of Louisville had a couple variations, and for a while it even ran chicago to Nashville via Evansville, but very slowly as the speed limit by that time was 50 mph.
Reasonable? If we are maintaining one frequency a day on the LD trains, its insane.Another reasonable requirement is that all major cities be served at hours between 6 am and midnight.
I probably would have chosen a different word, like perhaps "impossible", but otherwise I do agree with GML it is simply not possible to do all that you suggest delvyrails with only one run per day in each direction.Reasonable? If we are maintaining one frequency a day on the LD trains, its insane.Another reasonable requirement is that all major cities be served at hours between 6 am and midnight.
George, I think two things may have contributed to "my train', the Dixie Flagler/Dixieland falling first.This topic has been discussed multiple times on this site.
When looking favorable at the "Dixieland's" route, it should be remembered that this was the first of the "fast three" to die.
To summarize previous discussion:
The fastest and most popular, the City of Miami through Jackson TN, Birmingham, and Columbus GA is no longer possible. Critical segments of the route have eitehr been abandoned or become slow speed short lines.
The South Wind route, which became the Amtrak Floridian's route would need major work between Chicago and Indianapolis and between Montgomery and Waycross GA to have a decently fast schedule.
The Dixieland route, while all in place and all with CTC signalling and higging the most centers of population, although missing such places as Indianapolis and Louisville in favor of Evansville IN, is very congested with freight, very curvey across northern Georgia and with reductions in Superelevation on many curves could not support the speeds of the past, nor given the current realitiies where the train could not be "given the road" there is no way the former schedule could even be approached.
I agree about two nights. It certainly stopped me from taking the train when I found that out. We would have gotten a sleeper too but, not at those prices. One night, most likely.Getting the impression many think there is not a major market for a midwest to Florida train, am I right? I think a CHI-FL train through Indy or CIN through LOU, or NASH to Chattanooga and through the ATL would be wildly successful. There may not be the same amount of snowbirds as in the NEC but there is enough from the midwest. And trying to extrapolate numbers from how many that connect in DC to the Silver trains from the Cap Ltd is not a true gauge. No one is going to spend two nights on a train just to go from CHI to FL.
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