China Hi-Speed Puts US to Shame

[Green Maned Lion]

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.

 

[AlanB]

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.

While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.

While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.

The more I see how this country is run, the less I like the concept of democracy. Putting the self interests of every man, woman, and child first over the overall benefit of the society is a recipe for disaster.

Show me an efficient government, and I will show you a dictator. The people of China are mobilizing themselves into an industrial powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen. With each year, even the average man in China becomes wealthier and more comfortable than the year before. You must look at the lifestyle of the average Chinese and compare it not to ours, for ours is unrealistic. But to what it was like 20 years ago, or even more point fully, what it was like before Mao took over.

We let people's right to be a whining [female dog] get over the general benefit of society. And I'm bloody sick of it. Its stupid. Personal freedom to the extent we consider ourselves entitled is a luxury we can no longer afford.

 

[PRR 60]

From the New York Times, 2/17/2011:

BEIJING — In his seven years as chief of the Chinese Railways Ministry, Liu Zhijun built a commercial and political colossus that spanned continents and elevated the lowly train to a national symbol of pride and technological prowess. His abrupt sacking by the Communist Party is casting that empire in a decidedly different light, raising doubts not only about Mr. Liu’s stewardship and the corruption that dogs China’s vast public-works projects, but also, perhaps, the safety, financial soundness and long-term viability of a rail system that has captured the world’s attention.

The full story is HERE.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.

While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.

That way of doing things sounds similar to how the interstate highway system was planned and built. And look what happened there... in terms of both the good and bad.

Don't worry, the Chinese will get to that point where they can't get anything done due to red tape.

Also, GML, a dictatorship is no less likely to fall due to selfishness of the ruling party than a total mob rule of democracy.

Selfishness is the key word here. Human nature makes it that one person or group uses his selfishness in a democracy to make themselves more powerful and wealthy, then at a certain point, they become the dictator, still selfish.

The whole "good of the people" is often just to make the people (livestock, sheep, whatever you call it) more productive, and in turn, make the dictator more powerful and wealthy.

 

[guest]

from The New York Times of Saturday, February 13, 2010:

February 13, 2010China Sees Growth Engine in a Web of Fast Trains

By KEITH BRADSHER

WUHAN, China — The world’s largest human migration — the annual crush of Chinese traveling home to celebrate the Lunar New Year, which is this Sunday — is going a little faster this time thanks to a new high-speed rail line.

The Chinese bullet train, which has the world’s fastest average speed, connects Guangzhou, the southern coastal manufacturing center, to Wuhan, deep in the interior. In a little more than three hours, it travels 664 miles, comparable to the distance from Boston to southern Virginia. That is less time than Amtrak’s fastest train, the Acela, takes to go from Boston just to New York.

The full story can be found here.

This seems the same story already posted elsewhere on High Speed Rail discussion??

 

[Shawn Ryu]

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.

While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.

The more I see how this country is run, the less I like the concept of democracy. Putting the self interests of every man, woman, and child first over the overall benefit of the society is a recipe for disaster.

Show me an efficient government, and I will show you a dictator. The people of China are mobilizing themselves into an industrial powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen. With each year, even the average man in China becomes wealthier and more comfortable than the year before. You must look at the lifestyle of the average Chinese and compare it not to ours, for ours is unrealistic. But to what it was like 20 years ago, or even more point fully, what it was like before Mao took over.

We let people's right to be a whining [female dog] get over the general benefit of society. And I'm bloody sick of it. Its stupid. Personal freedom to the extent we consider ourselves entitled is a luxury we can no longer afford.

Democracy creates unnecessary politics. But I'd still rather live in a democratic country,

 

[rrdude]

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.

While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.

The more I see how this country is run, the less I like the concept of democracy. Putting the self interests of every man, woman, and child first over the overall benefit of the society is a recipe for disaster.

Show me an efficient government, and I will show you a dictator. The people of China are mobilizing themselves into an industrial powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen. With each year, even the average man in China becomes wealthier and more comfortable than the year before. You must look at the lifestyle of the average Chinese and compare it not to ours, for ours is unrealistic. But to what it was like 20 years ago, or even more point fully, what it was like before Mao took over.

We let people's right to be a whining [female dog] get over the general benefit of society. And I'm bloody sick of it. Its stupid. Personal freedom to the extent we consider ourselves entitled is a luxury we can no longer afford.

Wow, and I thought I was about as left-leaning as could be, you know, save-the-whale, tree-hugger, radical-commie-pinko-****, vote-for-higher-taxes-and-more-trains, Ann Arborite........... but "......luxury we can no longer afford........"

Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.

Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?

 

[George Harris]

Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.

And are not forced to stay if they do not want to stay. Just note which country has to work to keep their population from leaving and which one does not. And: For those to whom it applies, if you don't like living here, please leave and find someplace that you do.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.

Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?

Good point, I would agree with you.

Yes, it is a logical fallacy to believe that you want to live in some place just because you think it's better at doing something.

We didn't have to become a fascist dictatorship to build the interstate highway system even though our inspiration for that (the Autobahn) was built by **** Germany.

I don't like the political process today, but without democracy and "stubborn minorities", we wouldn't have mass transit, Amtrak, and most American cities would be gutted by freeways and brutalist architecture.

I actually think the Americanism at play here is that "we should emulate other countries' way of doing things, because it's best way of doing things, and we Americans are the best!", especially if we perceive them to be superior to us.

This forms a lot of the rhetoric from supporters of HSR and infrastructure development. You know, "We're falling behind Europe and Asia!".

But that argument doesn't always work, because not everyone wants to "dress up in other countries' clothes".

"No, just because America is classified as a developed country doesn't mean we need to be a conformist and adopt a universal health care system like other countries have."

And I feel like telling that to some of the liberals who support HSR. Because if I hear one go "Every developed country has a functional rail system/HSR except the US! We need to show how developed we are!", it actually causes a reaction in the opposition that just makes HSR into more of a Left-Right issue.

Note: I know universal health care and public infrastructure aren't the same thing, but our political process is stupid and loves lumping everything together.

 

[MrFSS]

HERE is a short (6 min) video about China's HSR. Some nice shots in and out of the trainset.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

HERE is a short (6 min) video about China's HSR. Some nice shots in and out of the trainset.

Great video! Interesting to see how the Chinese system is very much incomplete at this time. And the first line was opened on August 1st, 2008? Wow.

 

[John Bredin]

I actually think the Americanism at play here is that "we should emulate other countries' way of doing things, because it's best way of doing things, and we Americans are the best!", especially if we perceive them to be superior to us. This forms a lot of the rhetoric from supporters of HSR and infrastructure development. You know, "We're falling behind Europe and Asia!". But that argument doesn't always work, because not everyone wants to "dress up in other countries' clothes". "No, just because America is classified as a developed country doesn't mean we need to be a conformist and adopt a universal health care system like other countries have."
And I feel like telling that to some of the liberals who support HSR. Because if I hear one go "Every developed country has a functional rail system/HSR except the US! We need to show how developed we are!", it actually causes a reaction in the opposition that just makes HSR into more of a Left-Right issue.

Note: I know universal health care and public infrastructure aren't the same thing, but our political process is stupid and loves lumping everything together.

But pointing out the fact that all the other industrialized nations are doing HSR (and universal health care) isn't a matter of self-consciously and self-deprecatingly copying our "betters" or insecurely trying to be classed as a civilized or developed nation, as you portray it.

You are apparently aware of globalization, as you refer to it in your "handle". Well, if all our serious competitors in the global marketplace are doing something and we're not, we shouldn't blindly follow but we should at least ask why they are doing it instead of defensively falling back on American exceptionalism ("America, f*ck yeah!"). A company that refuses to do what all its competitors are doing is either crazy like a fox or just plain crazy, and a potential investor would try to make damned sure which one before putting a penny into that company.

If oil prices go up, so the prices of fuels and plastics derived from oil also go up, and we are significantly more susceptible to those price increases because we have few transport alternatives to the car and the truck, then our economy will suffer worse than the competitor nations that have built real alternatives.

Similarly, if a car manufacturer in Japan or the U.K. doesn't have to worry about the health insurance costs of its employees and retirees, but an American company does (cough! General Motors cough!), then the American company is at a measurable competitive disadvantage.

This is about the economy and keeping America competitive in the marketplace, not mere feelings or waving the flag (either way: "America's so unique we follow our own path come what may" or "America must prove it's an advanced nation by doing what other advanced nations do.")

 

[George Harris]

You couldn't tell someone before the last 10 years that China is going to build the fastest train network in the world. They'd laugh at you. They'd see China as a 3rd world country with a 3rd world rail system.What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

The answer to that one is relatively easy. The Chinese have been expanding their regular railroad network like mad for about the last 30 years. In many ways, building a railroad is building a railroad. Yes, there are significant constraints on the alignment geometry. Yes, the tolerances of the track have to be very tight. Yes, the equipment has to be able to run the required speed without suspension, motor, and aerodynamic issues.

However, the differences, at least macro, are not near as large as they may appear. There was not a lot of ramping up of construction ability necessary nor a lot of transition of basic techniques necessary. In fact, the rails used on the Chinese high speed lines are exactly the same shape and weight as those used on their main lines elsewhere. The straightness and other rolling tolerances are probably significantly tighter, but the section itself is unchanged. Look at the pictures of their track. Below the rail, the track design is essentially German and has been used in Germany for quite a few years, and the major element of the track system, concrete, has been produced and placed in great quantities in China for quite a few years.

(The rail section is very close to, and an improvement of the UIC 60 - now called EN 60E1 in shape, or for those familiar with it, very close to Chessie System's 122 CB, now no longer produced as it was not up to the job, which itself appears to have been based on the UIC 60, reshaped to provide better internal stress distribution. Their spring clip appears to be based on, if not an exact knock-off of, the German Vossloh clip.)

The real surprise is that they decided to do it. That they could do it large scale should have been no surprise at all.

 

[tp49]

Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.

Heh, wrong website. China Airlines is Taiwanese which they still don't like in these here parts (I say that typing this from my office in Shanghai).

The proper airlines are Air China or China Eastern

Yes, when it comes to public works projects things do get done much faster here because eminent domain involves the government saying we want it, here's some money, now leave.

Though, there are people who have protested. This is why the maglev runs only from Pudong Airport to the terminus at Longyang Road and not to People's Square where it was supposed to terminate. This is because there were protests about the extention to People's Square and that the neighborhoods they were going to run it through were filled with rich and the politically connected so it does happen.

I'm going to try to ride the high speed rail either this weekend or next weekend depending on the workload. When I do I will post pictures for sure.

 

[George Harris]

Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.

Heh, wrong website. China Airlines is Taiwanese which they still don't like in these here parts (I say that typing this from my office in Shanghai).

The proper airlines are Air China or China Eastern

I spent quite a few years on the other side of the strait, and understand - to a point - the mindsets of the opposite sides of the strait, but could in no way explain it.

Figure this one out: The Mainland government has basically told the government in Taiwan that they would attack them if Taiwan were to "Declare Independence", which would consist of renouncing their claim to be the legitimate government of all of China.

Don't remember the exact words on them, but when you arrive in Shanghai on an international flight you see signs defining three classifications: Chinese Citizens, Foreigners, and Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan Compatriots.

 

[tp49]

Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.

Heh, wrong website. China Airlines is Taiwanese which they still don't like in these here parts (I say that typing this from my office in Shanghai).

The proper airlines are Air China or China Eastern

I spent quite a few years on the other side of the strait, and understand - to a point - the mindsets of the opposite sides of the strait, but could in no way explain it.

Figure this one out: The Mainland government has basically told the government in Taiwan that they would attack them if Taiwan were to "Declare Independence", which would consist of renouncing their claim to be the legitimate government of all of China.

Don't remember the exact words on them, but when you arrive in Shanghai on an international flight you see signs defining three classifications: Chinese Citizens, Foreigners, and Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan Compatriots.

George, as we have discussed in the past I have also spent time on the other side of the strait, though not as much as you did. With the Ma regime in Taiwan, relations with China have improved greatly to the point where China Airlines and Eva Airlines and their Chinese counterparts actually are allowed to fly between Taiwan and China. Next month I'm visiting friends in Taipei flying from Hongquiao airport here to Shongshan in Taipei. I too understand the mindsets on both sides of the strait but am at a loss for how to explain it as well.

Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.

 

[George Harris]

With the Ma regime in Taiwan, relations with China have improved greatly to the point where China Airlines and Eva Airlines and their Chinese counterparts actually are allowed to fly between Taiwan and China. Next month I'm visiting friends in Taipei flying from Hongquiao airport here to Shongshan in Taipei. I too understand the mindsets on both sides of the strait but am at a loss for how to explain it as well.

Interesting. It is also interesting that the flights are going into Sungshan Airport at Taipei, as that is the domestic airport. International flights go to international airport out near Taoyuan.

Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.

One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.

 

[Phil]

UPDATE 4-At least 32 die in east China high-speed train crash

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/china-train-idUSL3E7IN08J20110723

This train is really made in china

 

[rrdude]

STILL puts the US HSR effort to shame, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

 

[Gratt]

STILL puts the US HSR effort to shame, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

I think I would rather take a train in eastern Africa than a HSR line in China, the only nation with a worse safety record is India

What makes China so scary is its signaling system is fundamentally flawed. This is what happens when you put a quick build with unskilled labor over safety.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/07/27/general-as-china-train-crash_8588212.html

When two DC metro trains hit each other people had kittens, I doubt it would have made the news in China with their sensors. The only reason why this was made so public is because it was their brand new line, with high end customers.

So yeah, I will take Amtrak safety and speed over China any day.

 

[jis]

So yeah, I will take Amtrak safety and speed over China any day.

Right! And we of course don't have any design flaws by design (in spite of the seeming geniuses who build our systems), like two adjacent track segments having two signal systems that display the same aspect to mean two completely different and contrary things, that led to that P42 mounting a TOFC's rear end just outside of Chicago.

Of course at the end of the day, anything that runs at zero speed is the safest of 'em all too

 

[George Harris]

Of course at the end of the day, anything that runs at zero speed is the safest of 'em all too

Which exactly describes the problem rail versus air in this country. The FAA is required to regulate and promote air services. The FRA has authority to regulate, but no requirement to promote.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.

Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?

Chinese government isnt efficient, its corrupt.