Class 1 Passenger Service

[Swadian Hardcore]

Swadian, I have been interested mainly in the western trains, particularly the Eagle and the Sunset. I will work up figures for the Lake Shore if you can give me some stats. How many cars and what type are on the train when it leaves Chicago? How many of those and what type go to Boston? I assumed the Boston section has one sleeper and two coaches plus the lounge with the rest going to NY. Are there coaches that only travel between Albany and Boston? How many? How many OBS staff are on each train. I assume one per sleeper, four in the diner, one in the lounge and one for every two coaches. Is that even close? The T&E crews I assume are four per train. What are the switching charges related to each section? Station costs I just estimate. There are just five manned stations that are not shared with eastern corridor trains and three of those are shared with the Capitol. Buffalo to NY are all shared with corridor trains. I still got around 50mil for basic operating costs. Greyhound coach fare Chi-NY is from $78 to 129 in Nov. Amtrak shows $97. Chi-BOS Greyhound shows $109-164. Amtrak is $101. I used a base coach fare of $150. Roomette charge of $330 and bedroom charge of $800. Overall the train misses covering it's operating costs by $4-5 million. Amtrak says it's costs for 2011 were $71mil and the train lost around $39mil with fully allocated costs. I am still working on it, but that is where I am right now.

I managed to find out that Amtrak locmotives use 120-170 gallons of diesel every hour in regular service, if that helps.

I also have found that, for the LSL to turn a profit, coach fares for NYP-CHI must be set at $120 one-way or higher. Since Amtrak only charges $97, it is doubtless that they will lose money. Sleeper fares should be at least $240 per person for a roomette (double occupancy) and $480 for a bedroom (double occcupancy) or roomette (single occupancy). That is without meals included. I took care to account for how many people would be in each room, as Amtrak charges sleeper supplements by the room.

For BOS prices should be around 5%-10% higher than NYP. Thus about $130, $270, and $520 respectively in the order listed above.

Please note that I have NOT accounted for overhead costs because I was not able to find out what cost they were and how much.

edit: just rewording

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

OK, I just did the fuel cost calculation again, because I originally did this a long time ago. It looks like Amtrak would dump $16,644,000 a year in fuel alone for the LSL.

Cost per gallon: $4

Gallons per hour per locomotive: 150 average

Hours per run: 19

Locomotives per run: 2

Runs a day: 2 (one in each direction)

Days a year: 365

Multiplying all these numbers results in $16,644,000.

 

[Ryan]

That's assuming that you fire up the engines the moment you leave the station and shut them down as soon as you arrive at the destination.

I guess you can account for the other time that those locomotives are running (idling, switching, etc) under those 'bloated overhead" costs.

 

[Ispolkom]

I didn't mean short lines, I live next to one and I hope no Class 1 looks at it for an idea. I was just saying like The Alaska Railroad and other large non-Class 1.

I would not be surprised if BNSF and UP look at even the largest regional railroads as pretty indistinguishable from any short line.

 

[henryj]

OK, I just did the fuel cost calculation again, because I originally did this a long time ago. It looks like Amtrak would dump $16,644,000 a year in fuel alone for the LSL.

Cost per gallon: $4

Gallons per hour per locomotive: 150 average

Hours per run: 19

Locomotives per run: 2

Runs a day: 2 (one in each direction)

Days a year: 365

Multiplying all these numbers results in $16,644,000.

I get more like $12.4 mil. I just used 2gal to the mile per engine with two engines going to NY and one engine between Albany and Boston. The Boston section basically gets a free ride to Albany. The other significant costs, track rental $4.2mil, maintenance $11.5mil, OBS labor $8.8, T&E labor $8.4. Total op costs $49.7. Total revenue $43.3 using a base coach fare of $130 to NY and $150 to Bos. Roomettes at $330 and bedrooms at $800. 75% occupancy rate. Train has an operating loss of $6.4mil. Amtrak lists revenue at only $33mil. Then you still have all that 'bloated' overhead. lol.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

OK, I just did the fuel cost calculation again, because I originally did this a long time ago. It looks like Amtrak would dump $16,644,000 a year in fuel alone for the LSL.

Cost per gallon: $4

Gallons per hour per locomotive: 150 average

Hours per run: 19

Locomotives per run: 2

Runs a day: 2 (one in each direction)

Days a year: 365

Multiplying all these numbers results in $16,644,000.

I get more like $12.4 mil. I just used 2gal to the mile per engine with two engines going to NY and one engine between Albany and Boston. The Boston section basically gets a free ride to Albany. The other significant costs.....

Actually, another forum member was kind enough to supply me with ioformation from the P42DC operating manual. I would not doubt the information from that manual. If I take your numbers, Amtrak would still lose an erxtra $4,000,000 on top of your numbers because the fuel costs are slightly higher. The BOS section requires a separate locomotive, so the real coast are probably $17,000,000-$18,000,000 for fuel. The NYP section still needs two locomitves, while the BOS section is running at the same time to meet at ALB.

edit: error

 

[Trogdor]

I get more like $12.4 mil. I just used 2gal to the mile per engine with two engines going to NY and one engine between Albany and Boston. The Boston section basically gets a free ride to Albany. The other significant costs, track rental $4.2mil, maintenance $11.5mil, OBS labor $8.8, T&E labor $8.4. Total op costs $49.7. Total revenue $43.3 using a base coach fare of $130 to NY and $150 to Bos. Roomettes at $330 and bedrooms at $800. 75% occupancy rate. Train has an operating loss of $6.4mil. Amtrak lists revenue at only $33mil. Then you still have all that 'bloated' overhead. lol.

So you're assuming every single passenger pays the same fare, and you're assuming an occupancy rate pulled out of thin air, yet you question Amtrak's numbers (even though they have exact ticket revenue data, down to the last dollar).

You also assume that two engines pulling 13 cars burns the same fuel as two engines pulling five cars.

Yet you are still convinced that your data are more accurate than Amtrak's.

I believe the term is "delusional."

 

[Trogdor]

The NYP section still needs two locomitves, while the BOs section is running at the same time to meet at ALB.

The Boston section typically runs with two locomotives.

The New York section runs with a single P32ACDM.

 

[henryj]

I get more like $12.4 mil. I just used 2gal to the mile per engine with two engines going to NY and one engine between Albany and Boston. The Boston section basically gets a free ride to Albany. The other significant costs, track rental $4.2mil, maintenance $11.5mil, OBS labor $8.8, T&E labor $8.4. Total op costs $49.7. Total revenue $43.3 using a base coach fare of $130 to NY and $150 to Bos. Roomettes at $330 and bedrooms at $800. 75% occupancy rate. Train has an operating loss of $6.4mil. Amtrak lists revenue at only $33mil. Then you still have all that 'bloated' overhead. lol.

So you're assuming every single passenger pays the same fare, and you're assuming an occupancy rate pulled out of thin air, yet you question Amtrak's numbers (even though they have exact ticket revenue data, down to the last dollar).

You also assume that two engines pulling 13 cars burns the same fuel as two engines pulling five cars.

Yet you are still convinced that your data are more accurate than Amtrak's.

I believe the term is "delusional."

You can believe whatever you want, but unless you can produce some actual numbers from Amtrak's accounting system mine are as good as any. You have no idea what we are doing here, you don't understand 'average' nor 'ball park' nor apparently anything else. You people like to jump all over any ideas that conflict with 'yours' yet you have nothing to offer. It's a well known fact that Amtrak's accounting is suspect and their reports of late even reflect that. And, I don't believe that I have ever offered that my numbers are 'more accurate' than Amtrak's nor anyone elses. I merely stated that I don't believe Amtrak's loss numbers for their 15 LD trains. If anyone is 'delusional' here it is the foamers that live in their little fantasy world of 'Amtrak is always right'.

 

[Ryan]

It's a well known fact that Amtrak's accounting is suspect and their reports of late even reflect that.

Really? Where is this "fact" documented?

And, I don't believe that I have ever offered that my numbers are 'more accurate' than Amtrak's nor anyone else's.

When you state:

I don't believe Amtrak's loss numbers for their 15 LD trains.

And then provide a different set of numbers, it certainly sounds like you're claiming that your numbers are more accurate.

The only "idea" I have to offer is that Amtrak's numbers sound perfectly fine for me, unless someone can document otherwise. A bunch of wild ballpark guesses pulled from assumptions by someone that can't even tell you what the consist of the train they're "analyzing" is does not count as that documentation.

 

[henryj]

someone that can't even tell you what the consist of the train they're "analyzing" is does not count as that documentation.

Actually, what is the consist?. I had to assume something. But based on the consists listed on here and on Youtube videos of the train consist I assumed Chi to Bos sleeper, 2 coaches, lounge and baggage. Chi to NY, 2 sleepers, 4 coaches, diner and baggage. Two engines Chi to NY and one Albany to Bos. I imagine it varies from time to time but I just wanted an average. I am thinking the OBS staff takes up several roomettes on both sections. Do you know how many? Is it 8 as on the Crescent? On the Boston section I would assume it is far less. I have it showing an operating loss of $7.7mil, but then I used a higher coach fare. Still my operating expense recovery is around 84% while Amtrak states it currently is around 75%. If I drop the occupancy percent and base coach fare I would be around the same as Amtrak.

 

[Donctor]

I get more like $12.4 mil. I just used 2gal to the mile per engine with two engines going to NY and one engine between Albany and Boston. The Boston section basically gets a free ride to Albany. The other significant costs, track rental $4.2mil, maintenance $11.5mil, OBS labor $8.8, T&E labor $8.4. Total op costs $49.7. Total revenue $43.3 using a base coach fare of $130 to NY and $150 to Bos. Roomettes at $330 and bedrooms at $800. 75% occupancy rate. Train has an operating loss of $6.4mil. Amtrak lists revenue at only $33mil. Then you still have all that 'bloated' overhead. lol.

So you're assuming every single passenger pays the same fare, and you're assuming an occupancy rate pulled out of thin air, yet you question Amtrak's numbers (even though they have exact ticket revenue data, down to the last dollar).

You also assume that two engines pulling 13 cars burns the same fuel as two engines pulling five cars.

Yet you are still convinced that your data are more accurate than Amtrak's.

I believe the term is "delusional."

You can believe whatever you want, but unless you can produce some actual numbers from Amtrak's accounting system mine are as good as any. You have no idea what we are doing here, you don't understand 'average' nor 'ball park' nor apparently anything else. You people like to jump all over any ideas that conflict with 'yours' yet you have nothing to offer. It's a well known fact that Amtrak's accounting is suspect and their reports of late even reflect that. And, I don't believe that I have ever offered that my numbers are 'more accurate' than Amtrak's nor anyone elses. I merely stated that I don't believe Amtrak's loss numbers for their 15 LD trains. If anyone is 'delusional' here it is the foamers that live in their little fantasy world of 'Amtrak is always right'.

I think Trogdor has been known not to understand numbers.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

someone that can't even tell you what the consist of the train they're "analyzing" is does not count as that documentation.

I would be around the same as Amtrak.

then why so critical of their accounting?

 

[Donctor]

someone that can't even tell you what the consist of the train they're "analyzing" is does not count as that documentation.

Actually, what is the consist?. I had to assume something. But based on the consists listed on here and on Youtube videos of the train consist I assumed Chi to Bos sleeper, 2 coaches, lounge and baggage. Chi to NY, 2 sleepers, 4 coaches, diner and baggage. Two engines Chi to NY and one Albany to Bos. I imagine it varies from time to time but I just wanted an average. I am thinking the OBS staff takes up several roomettes on both sections. Do you know how many? Is it 8 as on the Crescent? On the Boston section I would assume it is far less. I have it showing an operating loss of $7.7mil, but then I used a higher coach fare. Still my operating expense recovery is around 84% while Amtrak states it currently is around 75%. If I drop the occupancy percent and base coach fare I would be around the same as Amtrak.

There is a thread that will provide you with the consist.

 

[AlanB]

Two engines Chi to NY and one Albany to Bos.

As noted earlier by Trogdor, it's always two engines all the way from Boston to Chicago and back. In Albany, a third engine is pulled out of the yard to move the NY section to NY. That engine returns the next day.

But there is always two engines between Albany and Boston. Mainly because that it where the LSL sees the most mountainous terrain during the entire run. But also because it just reduces switching in Albany.

On rare occasions where an engine just came out of the shop you might find an extra engine above and beyond the numbers above.

 

[RampWidget]

Where I live on the CSX Mainline, the speeds are 59 Freight/70 Autotrain/79 Passenger

There are sections of CSX and NS (and I'm sure others) that allow higher speeds for freight trains that only contain intermodal flats & autoracks.

There are several locations on CSX's A-Line, for example, where 70 MPH for solid intermodal or solid autorack trains is authorized.

 

[henryj]

Two engines Chi to NY and one Albany to Bos.

As noted earlier by Trogdor, it's always two engines all the way from Boston to Chicago and back. In Albany, a third engine is pulled out of the yard to move the NY section to NY. That engine returns the next day.

But there is always two engines between Albany and Boston. Mainly because that it where the LSL sees the most mountainous terrain during the entire run. But also because it just reduces switching in Albany.

On rare occasions where an engine just came out of the shop you might find an extra engine above and beyond the numbers above.

Thanks Alan. That part I did not know. And thanks to Donctor for the link. That is the consist I used. It's interesing that even when the NYC ran the 'New England States' between Albany and Boston it still took almost 5 hours to cover that 200 miles.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The old B&A route from Albany to Boston is very curvey through the Berkshires. It would be impossible to speed it to up without engineering a whole new railway.

 

[Trogdor]

You can believe whatever you want, but unless you can produce some actual numbers from Amtrak's accounting system mine are as good as any.

No they are not. You made your numbers up. They are invented. Fabricated. Imagined.

You have no idea what we are doing here, you don't understand 'average' nor 'ball park' nor apparently anything else.

With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what I understand. What you don't understand is that I, and most other folks on here, are more likely to believe numbers from a company that has access to the data necessary to report those numbers than from someone who is, as I said, making things up.

Your averages mean nothing because your numbers are made up. I can average a bunch of made up numbers, too. Doesn't make the average meaningful in any way.

I don't care about your ballpark numbers because you're in the wrong ballpark.

You people like to jump all over any ideas that conflict with 'yours' yet you have nothing to offer.

I don't need to offer anything. The numbers Amtrak has reported, based on Amtrak having access to all amounts of information that you haven't even begun to consider, are good enough for me.

For example, how much does it cost to operate a crew base? Do you have any idea? Do you know how many road foremen/trainmasters are assigned to a given long-distance train? Do you know how many OBS supervisors there are on the system? What about total crew members? How many extra board personnel are there at each crew base? How much does crew held-away pay cost, plus hotel costs at away-bases? How much does it cost to operate crew vans to dogcatch conductors and engineers that die on HOS?

What about the cost of passenger misconnects and other passenger inconvenience/service recovery?

Or does all of that just get charged to "overhead" which you say is bloated?

 

[oldtimer]

You can believe whatever you want, but unless you can produce some actual numbers from Amtrak's accounting system mine are as good as any.

No they are not. You made your numbers up. They are invented. Fabricated. Imagined.

You have no idea what we are doing here, you don't understand 'average' nor 'ball park' nor apparently anything else.

With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what I understand. What you don't understand is that I, and most other folks on here, are more likely to believe numbers from a company that has access to the data necessary to report those numbers than from someone who is, as I said, making things up.

Your averages mean nothing because your numbers are made up. I can average a bunch of made up numbers, too. Doesn't make the average meaningful in any way.

I don't care about your ballpark numbers because you're in the wrong ballpark.

You people like to jump all over any ideas that conflict with 'yours' yet you have nothing to offer.

I don't need to offer anything. The numbers Amtrak has reported, based on Amtrak having access to all amounts of information that you haven't even begun to consider, are good enough for me.

For example, how much does it cost to operate a crew base? Do you have any idea? Do you know how many road foremen/trainmasters are assigned to a given long-distance train? Do you know how many OBS supervisors there are on the system? What about total crew members? How many extra board personnel are there at each crew base? How much does crew held-away pay cost, plus hotel costs at away-bases? How much does it cost to operate crew vans to dogcatch conductors and engineers that die on HOS?

What about the cost of passenger misconnects and other passenger inconvenience/service recovery?

Or does all of that just get charged to "overhead" which you say is bloated?

Trogdor,

You just hit it out of the ballpark.

Other things in that "bloated overhead" include the cost of maintenance base operations, mechanical supervisors, storeroom facilities, inventory, accounting for the payroll, human resources et al.

 

[henryj]

Or does all of that just get charged to "overhead" which you say is bloated?

ooooooooooh. Somebody is pissed. lol. I think it's your mind that is 'bloated'. Have a 'nice day'. lol I am having fun and learning something at the same time.

 

[Gratt]

This thread is becoming childish.

 

[PRR 60]

This thread is becoming childish.

I agree.

Let’s not turn this into an urination contest between members. State your case, ask for supporting info if you doubt someone else's data, but at some point simply accept that you disagree and move on. It is not necessarily the case that the person that says the same thing most often wins, or that the last insult wins. Name-calling does not help anyone’s cause.

 

[zephyr17]

I think it's your mind that is 'bloated'. Have a 'nice day'.

When someone resorts to ad hominem attacks, that usually indicates they have lost the debate, as "neener, neener" tends to be unconvincing.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

This discussion is turning boring. I'm not going to keep argueing. I have done my calculations and stated my numbers. They may not be very accurate but that's all I can do.