Regardless of the venue the law of the Commonwealth of Virginia would be used in deciding any case on its merits. Though I don't think it would ever get that far.No, but if they get a "good" venue, they might be able to get a lot of money on the punitive side of things. And there's a case for the venue to be:If I was a personal injury lawyer, I would not take the case. Most PI lawyers take cases on a contingency and accept a percentage of the recovery as their attorney fee. Attorneys generally evaluate the case based on the amount of damages and liability. I do not see a large amount of damages suffered by the complaints, but then again, I am not privy to all the facts and I am not a personal injury lawyer.Is Ashland "in the middle of nowhere"?Id think not since its so close to Richmond and they were able to get a hotel and catch the Train the next day! Be interesting to see all the facts, my natural skepticism makes me think a lawyer wouldnt take a case over a few hundred dollars unless they thought they could settle the case! Ive known a few power tripping conductors and OBS myself, but doubt if this one will go anywhere, might be worth Amtraks while to just settle this nusciance suit for a thousand bucks or so and have it go away!(maybe one of our attorney members in Florida will have some insight on this matter as pertains to Florida Law versus Federal Law since it happened in Virginia in Interstate Commerce?? :unsure: ) We dont want to encourage Fortune Hunters and Ambulance Chasers to file more suits against Amtrak, there's already enough of those IF this is the case here!! :help:
-Virginia (where the incident happened)
-Florida (presumably their residence)
-DC (Amtrak's HQ)
I could see any of the three prevailing.
Disorderly ? passenger "ejected"
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Thanks for the link. Left me feeling sick after read the passengers report. Hope the conductor gets fired. Some crews are so good, others well they need to meet the unemployment line.
Edit for spelling. Lack of or need for more coffee
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This story is reported in today's (12/19) edition of the Orlando Sentinel print edition on the front page of the business section. The story still refers to the train as a "commuter train." There is a photo of the passengers at the end of the story, on page 4. It is likely that the exact story was picked up from the initial newspaper, which may also be a Tribune newspaper.
VentureForth
Engineer
99% of the time, I'd side with the conductor on this. But if there was a train on which I've been where the conductor has been less than reasonable, less than compassionate, less than cooperative, it would be on the Silver Service. I've been absolutely refused a sleeper upgrade on this train, too, though I can't verify that it was Melissa Rose - though come to think of it, it could have been.
There comes a time, though, that the customer just needs to back off. Recognize you are dealing with someone who is not capable of being dealt with and count your losses.
On thing that really irritates me about Amtrak is the total lack of professionalism during "down time".
When I worked at Disney, we were trained that we were ALWAYS working when we were "on stage," which was any area where guests could see us. If I had a name tag on, and I was anywhere a guest was, my professionalism and courtesy was always expected - whether I was on the clock or not.
This obviously doesn't happen at Amtrak. About the most professional employee I've seen on an Amtrak train is the SCA. I've rarely seen them outside of their car unless they were dining. But conductors, assistant conductors, LSAs, SAs, coach attendants, chefs, cafe car attendants - the lot of them - I've seen taking up guests' spaces and completely ignoring the fact that they are supposed to be professsionals.
Could the detrained and his mother avoided being kicked off the train? Certainly. They could have backed off. Should they have had to? Absolutely not.
Any one out there riding the Silvers soon, willing to get kicked off, that would like to record a dialog with Melissa Rose in an upgrade conversation?
If she is as vindictive with everyone as she was with the victim, there should be some sort of matrix that shows that she upgrades the least number of rooms and has the highest number of service disruptions. Someone in management must know.... Of course the ones who do probably just left in the massive Voluntary Separation Incentive Program.
There comes a time, though, that the customer just needs to back off. Recognize you are dealing with someone who is not capable of being dealt with and count your losses.
On thing that really irritates me about Amtrak is the total lack of professionalism during "down time".
When I worked at Disney, we were trained that we were ALWAYS working when we were "on stage," which was any area where guests could see us. If I had a name tag on, and I was anywhere a guest was, my professionalism and courtesy was always expected - whether I was on the clock or not.
This obviously doesn't happen at Amtrak. About the most professional employee I've seen on an Amtrak train is the SCA. I've rarely seen them outside of their car unless they were dining. But conductors, assistant conductors, LSAs, SAs, coach attendants, chefs, cafe car attendants - the lot of them - I've seen taking up guests' spaces and completely ignoring the fact that they are supposed to be professsionals.
Could the detrained and his mother avoided being kicked off the train? Certainly. They could have backed off. Should they have had to? Absolutely not.
Any one out there riding the Silvers soon, willing to get kicked off, that would like to record a dialog with Melissa Rose in an upgrade conversation?
If she is as vindictive with everyone as she was with the victim, there should be some sort of matrix that shows that she upgrades the least number of rooms and has the highest number of service disruptions. Someone in management must know.... Of course the ones who do probably just left in the massive Voluntary Separation Incentive Program.
Ryan
Court Jester
Just remember that there are two sides to every story, and this one is told in a way to garner sympathy towards one side. There were a few things that struck me as "off" in the narrative, most notably this:
Pretty vague, and what she said could may well be enough to get her put off the train. It's very easy to "turn it off" when the police show up and leave the impression that you've been this calm and collected the whole time.
Not saying that the conductor is right, but I'm certainly not leaping to any judgements after reading this account either.
Unfortunately, the passenger's account rings true to my experiences with Amtrak emplyees. I've learned to work around it by planning carefully. Because many conductors resist on board upgrades, I don't do them. I also am aware of pitfalls involving sca's and lsa's I and work around them too. Then I can enjoy my trip. Really, I shouldn't have to put this much energy to appease ignorant, lazy, nasty employees. But I do because I love riding trains.
While I may not have as many miles under my belt as a lot you do, I look at it this way...
The conductor is the captain of the train.
I would no more argue with a conductor or any attendant on the train anymore than I would with the captain or flight attendant on a plane - see how far that gets you.
The plane is getting turned around at that point and the passenger is going to be removed and/or arrested.
We've only heard one side of the story here so I'll have to withhold judgement on Melissa Rose's conduct but, based on what I've read, they questioned her authority and were out of line.
I'm willing to bet that the passenger's *outburst* that they attributed to their *anxiety disorder* led her to believe they were drunk and disruptive - she was in charge and certainly allowed to make that judgement call.
All I can say is that I've spent my life dealing with the public and it's not a bed of roses.
There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.
The conductor is the captain of the train.
I would no more argue with a conductor or any attendant on the train anymore than I would with the captain or flight attendant on a plane - see how far that gets you.
The plane is getting turned around at that point and the passenger is going to be removed and/or arrested.
We've only heard one side of the story here so I'll have to withhold judgement on Melissa Rose's conduct but, based on what I've read, they questioned her authority and were out of line.
I'm willing to bet that the passenger's *outburst* that they attributed to their *anxiety disorder* led her to believe they were drunk and disruptive - she was in charge and certainly allowed to make that judgement call.
All I can say is that I've spent my life dealing with the public and it's not a bed of roses.
There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.
haolerider
Conductor
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The shame is that you need to "work-around" the employees. Having worked for Amtrak and having ridden almost every Long Distance and Regional trains, I have to admit that the quality of the employees is not the best; however as with most customer service driven companies, the negative employees get the most attention and the high quality employees receive very little recognition, in fact in some cases they are seen as irritants to those employees who don't want to give quality service. Conductors, by the nature of their job are often times focused on the operational aspects of running the trains and have little customer service training or appreciation for the fact that the passengers are paying their salaries. In the case being discussed on this thread, I would tend to side with the passengers, since I have seen Conductors tell passengers that there are no sleepers available, when I knew there were several open. The fact that they need to call and get a price and then go through paper work seems to be a burden some of them don't want to handle, even though it means more money for the company and a satisfied customer.
What is the solution? I know additional Customer Service training is needed - for all crafts - and I have seen efforts to make this happen, but it always seems to fall short. I am an advocate of Management riding trains on a constant basis,or the development of a program that would put non-union Chiefs back on the trains; however the union has shown a strong unwillingness to allow that to happen.
Ispolkom
Engineer
One aspect I don't see addressed: were they able to upgrade on the next night's train?
henryj
Conductor
Fortunately in my travels I have not come across a 'Melissa Rose' but I know they are out there. There are also unruly and obnoxious passengers. Hopefully Amtrak will give Rose what she deserves.
rrdude
Engineer
You know what really sucked when I was an OBS, and after reading the passengers report, still appears to be a problem from time-to-time, is that certain conductors can go on "power trips" and be just as nasty to the OBS crew, as they are to the paying passengers.
Each line or route probably has their story to tell, but I used to avoid the Wolverine, and Saint Clair in Michigan like the plague, due to a completely off-his-rocker conductor is just seemed to hate ever employee and passenger. It didn't matter WHAT you did, this guy would yell at you for something. I think I had more passengers complain to me, a lowly LSA, about him, than on all other routes I ever worked, combined.
Each line or route probably has their story to tell, but I used to avoid the Wolverine, and Saint Clair in Michigan like the plague, due to a completely off-his-rocker conductor is just seemed to hate ever employee and passenger. It didn't matter WHAT you did, this guy would yell at you for something. I think I had more passengers complain to me, a lowly LSA, about him, than on all other routes I ever worked, combined.
Devil's Advocate
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In one sense you're right, in that arguing with a conductor is likely to be a pointless and fruitless endeavor with someone who has no specific expectation to treat you a certain way and has the option to put you off wherever they please if you show them anything but subservience. On the other hand, it's not quite apples to apples. For instance, there is virtually no time during a flight that you'll be able to discuss anything with the captain on a plane unless they are relieved from the flight deck by another crew member. Nor is there any process or method for upgrading while aboard which the captain of an aircraft could intentionally interfere with. In other words, while I have rather specific opinions of several Amtrak conductors (both good and bad) I have virtually no opinion of most aircraft captains because I've never had an opportunity (or reason) to interact with them.
True, but deciding to kick someone out of your store or restaurant is a relatively minor event compared to dropping them off in the middle of nowhere, potentially with no obvious means of getting home.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
If the police report states they found the ejected passengers to be sober and cooperative, this will indeed get very interesting.
Though this has to remind of me of our other thread, discussing how does one force/make the conductor follow the manual. Getting ejected from the train, even if you were in the "right", isn't really the best course of action.
It would be nice if all passengers who claim bad treatment by the crew would carry a small camcorder with them to record the incident. This way we can get the bad seeds removed from the system. This Melissa Rose character is obviously a very bitter and crass human being. Amtrak would serve themselves well to rid themselves of people who would stoop so low as to eject a sick and elderly woman from the train. Amtrak also needs to change the system concerning onboard upgrades. It cannot be left to the discretion of the conductor whether they feel like doing the paperwork or not. You should be able to call in and purchase the upgrade while en route.
EB_OBS
Conductor
That's not a bad idea. What Amtrak really needs to do is stop selling onboard upgrades at the lowest bucket. There's no reason for it anymore. If onboard upgrades were the same price as at the ticket window, people would stop waiting 'til they are on the train to get a sleeper. Station agents and ticket agents are there to sell tickets. It's 90% of what they do.
With consistent record ridership and full trains year round it's unnecessary to sell rooms at the lowest price by default.
I tend to agree. My inclination would have been to turn my camera's video/audio option on, hand it to a friend, and then have the discussion. If things went poorly, an email to management with a link to a non-public YouTube video would have been in the offering...and of course, that's if I didn't try to chat up the next conductor and work on them (bad hours of the night notwithstanding).
It seems clear to me that there were at least two outbursts on that trip, and that would have probably "done it" for the conductor. My best guess still stands on what happened...though I'm also left wondering: If a conductor tries to call the police for a non-drunk and disorderly passenger (basically, a thin-skinned conductor on a power trip), could the police simply say "We will not remove that passenger" if no clear cause (such as D&D) is given?
Devil's Advocate
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I think they already have. <_<
But then maybe I've been reading different articles and riding different trains than you have.
hboy:haolerider
Conductor
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Actually there are restrictions regarding filming or taking pictures of crew members, plus what would you do if someone came to your workplace with a complaint and began filming your response? Not a good idea!
henryj
Conductor
More of what I am reading in this confrontation is that these two people knew each other from other trips. Apparently this women had done this on board upgrade many times before always hoping to get the low bucket price. Otherwise she would have just reserved the room before boarding or when she bought the ticket. So what I get out of it is that the Conductor Rose had just had enough of this and refused to sell her a room causing the subsequent blow up. What Rose did wrong is taking it upon herself to do this. Remember in the retail busines the customer is always right and if Amtrak allows on board upgrades then you have to do it whether or not you like it or the customer. Of course if this women had been a reader on here she would have known to just get on line and make a reservation from the next stop and picked up her new ticket then the conductor would have no choice but to let her into her room. From what I read today on Bruce Richardson's blog, Amtrak is disintegrating anyway so you may see more of this behavior.
Could it be the Conductor did not want to do the upgrade until Richmond due to the possiblity that it was her crew change point and it would be the next Conductor's item to deal with? I know Regional crews change in RVR but don't know about LD crews.
It seems to me that the function of accommocation upgrades should be with the SCA/LSA. While they certainly contribute to the safe operation of the train it is not their primary task and could deal with it better than the Conductor.
It seems to me that the function of accommocation upgrades should be with the SCA/LSA. While they certainly contribute to the safe operation of the train it is not their primary task and could deal with it better than the Conductor.
MattW
Conductor
Actually, as far as I know, the only restrictions posted by Amtrak publicly are that on-board photography/videography must comply with crew member instructions. The only place you [should] run into trouble is if the state you're in is a two-party consent state (Illinois or Massachusetts are the two main ones) although recent court rulings may be to our favor in that regard.
(bolding mine) That's the same argument police officers have used many times to justify their illegal orders for people to shut their cameras down and delete the images or footage. Public servants in public spaces should not be in that position if they have a problem being filmed.
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Devil's Advocate
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That sounds pretty logical to me. But I'm sure we're just a few posts away from hearing how it would be impossible for Amtrak to improve efficiency and delegate tasks because of some obscure rule based on an ancient tradition that has nothing to do with anything going on in the world today. -_-
Try telling that to Shirley Sherrod.
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Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
Do the Amtrak "rules" require the conductor to sell an on-board upgrade? Or is it at the discretion of the conductor?
Seems the power-play between the passenger and this one conductor has been building for a while, across many train runs.
While the "customer is always right", there are certainly many businesses that ban certain people from their stores, simply because they are high-maintenance.
Ryan
Court Jester
The service standards manual says (page 8-99):
It isn't clear if the "must" refers to the fact that the conductor must process the upgrade if available, or that IF they do process the upgrade, these are the steps that they "must" take.
gdj
Train Attendant
Aside from customer service considerations, if this thing winds up down at the courthouse in VA, I've wondered what impact will the fact that in VA conductors are conservators of the peace with arrest authority? The court could very well treat the conductor's testimony as that of a law enforcement officer in any he said she said situation.
Gary
Gary
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