Disorderly ? passenger "ejected"

[Just-Thinking-51]

As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.

I agree that something needs to be done with the on-board upgrades, but the Cafe car is a different issue. Union works rules, pay, benefits, tips, and now were give them 1% of the gross (or some number) too?

 

[Anderson]

As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.

I agree that something needs to be done with the on-board upgrades, but the Cafe car is a different issue. Union works rules, pay, benefits, tips, and now were give them 1% of the gross (or some number) too?

For upgrades, I might agree, but conductors on segments that are regularly sold out would probably (rightfully, IMHO) raise hell. There are routes where there's regularly going to be spare capacity in the sleepers, and then you get those routes/segments where there will be no such capacity to speak of. To offer an example, the Zephyr east of Denver is far more crowded than west of Denver (since CHI-DEN is basically an overnight run), so conductors further west would have rooms to sell while those in the east wouldn't.

I disagree with this on the cafe car. However, I very strongly support doing this for the diner, since I've been on a few trains where the announcement for dinner reservations more or less didn't carry into all of the coaches and the LSA didn't hit all of them when taking reservations. If anything, there should be a firm incentive to fill every table possible, to keep all of the tables available for passenger use that can be, etc.

 

[Big Iron]

I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.

I know during arguments I've actually trained myself to try and refrain from any sort of name calling or use of profanity, thereby making me at least look like the better person. lol

But I also agree the policy needs to be changed about on-board upgrades. I'm partial to the "black/white" way. Either every conductor has to do an on-board upgrade if asked, or no conductor has to. Easier to figure out then who's at fault for not doing their job.

I'd be willing to take a "mixed" policy of some kind (i.e. "Upgrades must be offered and requests honored under the following conditions but not under these other conditions", for example requiring them to be granted in the event of a major delay), but it definitely needs to be more definitive. I even recall hearing a call to the effect of "Anybody who wants to upgrade for the night, see the conductor" on (I believe) the Zephyr. IIRC, this may have been in a delay-heavy winter (I'm thinking Winter, 2008), and an ambitious conductor got it in their mind to fill a bunch of unexpectedly emptied sleeping accommodations east of Denver.

When I ran into another forum member last winter, he said he'd been able to frequently get upgrades on the western trains, and the only time I asked for an upgrade was on the SWC when it was far behind schedule. So I'm going to take a wild stab and say that I think the Western conductors are more open to this than the Eastern conductors are...but I think that may be due to the large number of long delays those trains have seen over the years resulting in no-shows (people "walking away" from a train that is twelve hours late), misconnects, people getting put on a night leg unexpectedly (i.e. my SWC story), and so forth.

I can't say for sure if it is an East Coast bias against selling upgrades enroute. A thought in this case is that the Southbound Silvers typically have heavy boardings in DC and then a short distance before the stop in ALX. Also, there is a new operating crew that comes on in DC so upon departure all passenger tickets need to be checked making the Conductor very, very busy. To approach a conductor shortly upon departure from DC would not be the best time to ask. The appropriate response would have been for the conductor to say see me in the lounge 5 minutes past Fredericksburg and I will check for you then. That gives the passenger a concrete time to address the issue and some sort of consensus on next steps.

 

[jdcnosse]

I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.

I know during arguments I've actually trained myself to try and refrain from any sort of name calling or use of profanity, thereby making me at least look like the better person. lol

But I also agree the policy needs to be changed about on-board upgrades. I'm partial to the "black/white" way. Either every conductor has to do an on-board upgrade if asked, or no conductor has to. Easier to figure out then who's at fault for not doing their job.

I'd be willing to take a "mixed" policy of some kind (i.e. "Upgrades must be offered and requests honored under the following conditions but not under these other conditions", for example requiring them to be granted in the event of a major delay), but it definitely needs to be more definitive. I even recall hearing a call to the effect of "Anybody who wants to upgrade for the night, see the conductor" on (I believe) the Zephyr. IIRC, this may have been in a delay-heavy winter (I'm thinking Winter, 2008), and an ambitious conductor got it in their mind to fill a bunch of unexpectedly emptied sleeping accommodations east of Denver.

That could work too. But either way it would still be a you have to/don't offer at all type of scenario, where it isn't exactly up to the conductor to decide.

 

[tp49]

Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.

As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.

That could be a very thorny issue though because it could be considered a gift of public funds.

 

[jis]

Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.

As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.

That could be a very thorny issue though because it could be considered a gift of public funds.

Why is it a gift. It is payment for a service provided, no? Or must all pay be completely disconnected from any quality of service or quantity of service provided issues?

 

[NAVYBLUE]

I am in the process of typing my Trip Report(NOVELETTE) for my 12/11 LAX-CHI-BAL on the SWC/CARDINAL but wanted to chime in on upgrades. I hit the POWERBALL of Conductors or was lucky, don't know which. At home I made a 4"/4" card for

each of my (4) segments (LAX-CHI, CHI-BAL, BAL-CHI and CHI_LAX) with my name, cell #, sleeper number and roomette number. Tracked BR rates up till night of departure. Boarded SWC, told SCA I was interested in upgrade to BR, called

Reservations immediately after being seated and got a list of empty bedrooms by room #/car. Put that info on my segment card. Unbeknown to me SCA told conductor about my desires. When he approached my roomette, I had tickets ready for him,

he punched them and said he understood I desired to upgrade to BR.

Here is the numbers for the SWC segment:

$354 Rail charge (LAX-CHI-BAL)

$313 roomette charge (LAX-CHI)

$613 bedroom (LAX-CHI)

Told Steve I would meet him somewhere in the middle and to proceed at "his convenience"

Fifteen minutes later he came back and asked me if $50 was fair from LAX-CHI. I almost wet my pants. Gave him my credit card and again told him to proceed at "his convenience". He came back in 10 minutes and told me to move to bedroom C in

the same car and "HE" would notify SCA about room move. I said to myself this is going too smoothly. He said something about booking it out of Fullerton, CA. I can only "assume" it may having something to do with Fullerton being the last checked

baggage station until we got to Flagstaff, AZ. And the $50, I can only "assume" the cost of my ticket $354 + $313 = $667 exceeded the cost ($613) of a BR and I got it for the $50 minimum. As I am new (last trip 1993) to AMTRAK LD, I am only guessing

how it works.

NAVYBLUE

 

[Big Iron]

Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.

As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.

That could be a very thorny issue though because it could be considered a gift of public funds.

Why is it a gift. It is payment for a service provided, no? Or must all pay be completely disconnected from any quality of service or quantity of service provided issues?

Regarding extra income for conductors selling upgrades, one method that would create an incentive to sell upgrades is a revenue model salespeople work under. In my world we are expected to generate a certain amount of revenue for the company, for that we get a paycheck and keep our job. Once we exceed that level then a portion of the extra revenue is given back to sales rep. Perhaps conductors could be given a revenue figure for generating upgrade revenues and then be incentivized above that. To create consistent behavior work contracts would need to be changed (how likley is that?) so that all conductors must generate X amount of revenue to keep thier jobs and enjoy x percentage of the extra revenue as commission. The same model could work for cafe/lounge attendants and the LSA in the diners. This is just a grand theory for Amtrak but it does create consistent behaviors in my world (sell or die).

 

[Monon81]

All I can say is that I've spent my life dealing with the public and it's not a bed of roses.

There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.

The discussion on on-board upgrades is fascinating. Evidently there are some knowledgeable travelers in this forum who know how to game the system. Nothing wrong with that. But I suspect that such gamesmanship combined with a sense of entitlement or, dare I say, arrogance can lead to some trouble.

Some close reading and comparison between the getpayback.com posting and the Sun Sentinel got my BS detectors activated. Both the story and the posting were written a month after the incident. The newspaper story was published in a Florida paper, not in Virginia, where the incident happened. The newspaper writer is a "Consumer columnist," as opposed to a reporter. The unusual term "cabin," which I associate with ships rather than trains, was used in both.

I would guess that the aggrieved passenger stewed about the incident for a week or so, contacted an attorney of the ambulance-chaser type, and, at his direction (this specialty of law is soaked with testosterone), started a publicity campaign. She wrote her lengthy story for getpayback.com and contacted the columnist from her local fish wrapper. Columnist takes down her story, makes a couple of quick phone calls to Amtrak Media Relations and Ashland Police Media Relations and gets some perfunctory responses from both. Its way too long ago to find any other witnesses, so he writes his story.

Other BS detector activators:

Newspaper story mentions her son traveling with her. In the posting, it's her mother.
Her "brief summery" [sic] was 2480 words long! That's four pages of spiteful writing, boldfacing
the conductor's full name
at every opportunity.
The aggrieved passenger admits that she suffers from anxiety disorder, and her writing bears that out. Police officers are pretty well trained to calm down agitated people; its a skill beyond what's expected of ordinary customer-service people. She compliments the officers; my guess is that they were able to talk her down after she was kicked off the train.

I hope she gets the help she needs, and from someone other than a lawyer.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Regarding extra income for conductors selling upgrades, one method that would create an incentive to sell upgrades is a revenue model salespeople work under. In my world we are expected to generate a certain amount of revenue for the company, for that we get a paycheck and keep our job. Once we exceed that level then a portion of the extra revenue is given back to sales rep. Perhaps conductors could be given a revenue figure for generating upgrade revenues and then be incentivized above that. To create consistent behavior work contracts would need to be changed (how likley is that?) so that all conductors must generate X amount of revenue to keep thier jobs and enjoy x percentage of the extra revenue as commission. The same model could work for cafe/lounge attendants and the LSA in the diners. This is just a grand theory for Amtrak but it does create consistent behaviors in my world (sell or die).

This would be a great model except the amount of available inventory can vary and is often never known until the train is underway; so setting quotas would be difficult, especially on routes that are usually sold out.

 

[MiRider]

Wow... after reading the *report* on getpayback.com and taking the points that Monon81 brings up into consideration, I've come to the conclusion that this story is just that... a story.

A story told by someone with a bigger problem than an *anxiety disorder*.

I love this part: We found the Ashland police to be among the best we have encountered I don't know about you but...I'm happy to say that I haven't encountered enough police officers in my lifetime to make comparisons.

 

[amamba]

My thought regarding the discrepancy between the newspaper and the website first hand account is that it is the same two people traveling but from two different perspectives. The main character in the newspaper story is a woman traveling with her grown son. It was the grown son who then posted on the website and said he was traveling with his mother.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[MiRider]

I don't see that at all but what I do see is two creepy sounding weirdos that, if they were anything like they sound in their *account*, deserved to be removed from the train.

Tell me, exactly, how you or anyone else is going to force any conductor to upgrade you to a room?

If you ask and aren't taken care of, take the hint.

You have your seat, go sit in it or pay for a room when you make your reservation.

I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.

Also, if it was the *son* posting on getpayback.com then why is the byline on that report 'Josephine Savir'?

My thought regarding the discrepancy between the newspaper and the website first hand account is that it is the same two people traveling but from two different perspectives. The main character in the newspaper story is a woman traveling with her grown son. It was the grown son who then posted on the website and said he was traveling with his mother.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[TVRM610]

If you ask and aren't taken care of, take the hint.

I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.

I've been called an "Amtrak Apologetic" before but c'mon. This is not "playing the system." And let me tell you, anyone experienced with Amtrak knows that Conductors like this exist.

I mean if it was me, i would have just waited for the next crew change, but it's clear that other OBS was happy to be friendly to them.

 

[MiRider]

I'm not making excuses for Amtrak or the conductor - we still only know the story as told by the melodramatic passenger.

My experiences with conductors have been limited to having my ticket lifted and listening to their announcements.

Some of them seemed unfriendly but it never affected my experience because I've never felt the need to argue with any of them.

If I were to ask for a service and be told no, that would be the end of it on the train - there would be no argument.

Any problems I would have would be addressed with customer service and a post on Amtrak's Facebook page.

No matter how nasty a conductor is, I still think that you would have to be pretty damn out of control to be thrown off of a train.

1324616534[/url]' post='336301']

1324610809[/url]' post='336280']If you ask and aren't taken care of, take the hint.

I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.

I've been called an "Amtrak Apologetic" before but c'mon. This is not "playing the system." And let me tell you, anyone experienced with Amtrak knows that Conductors like this exist.

I mean if it was me, i would have just waited for the next crew change, but it's clear that other OBS was happy to be friendly to them.

 

[Big Iron]

Regarding extra income for conductors selling upgrades, one method that would create an incentive to sell upgrades is a revenue model salespeople work under. In my world we are expected to generate a certain amount of revenue for the company, for that we get a paycheck and keep our job. Once we exceed that level then a portion of the extra revenue is given back to sales rep. Perhaps conductors could be given a revenue figure for generating upgrade revenues and then be incentivized above that. To create consistent behavior work contracts would need to be changed (how likley is that?) so that all conductors must generate X amount of revenue to keep thier jobs and enjoy x percentage of the extra revenue as commission. The same model could work for cafe/lounge attendants and the LSA in the diners. This is just a grand theory for Amtrak but it does create consistent behaviors in my world (sell or die).

This would be a great model except the amount of available inventory can vary and is often never known until the train is underway; so setting quotas would be difficult, especially on routes that are usually sold out.

If a change is desired it has to start somewhere. My sales territory is smaller and has lower per capita income that other regions yet I'm expected to produce like my peers. Lots of reasons can be stated as to why one can't reach a goal but if properly motivated to meet it wonders in revenue production can happed. It takes good leadership and hands on management but it can be done.

 

[PaulM]

There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.

Evidently there are some knowledgeable travelers in this forum who know how to game the system. Nothing wrong with that. But I suspect that such gamesmanship combined with a sense of entitlement or, dare I say, arrogance can lead to some trouble.

I'll repeat my earlier statement that the the "E" word is not applicable here. I'll add that this isn't gamesmanship, other than that there is a risk that all rooms will be sold. It's a long standing way Amtrak, and pre-Amtrak RR's for than matter, obtains more revenue. Also, not everyone learns about it from this forum. I observed my father doing it over 50 years ago. Finally, the arrogant ones are those who don't follow company rules.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Evidently there are some knowledgeable travelers in this forum who know how to game the system. I suspect that such gamesmanship combined with a sense of entitlement or, dare I say, arrogance can lead to some trouble.

I don't think "game the system" means what you apparently think it means.

&I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.

Can you please explain how following the rules to the letter is "playing the system?"

 

[VentureForth]

Actually, I believe that gaming the system means one takes any available loophole, without breaking any rules. It can appear be breaking rules because most casual observers are simply not aware of the rules.

Do I want to tell everyone I'm sitting by that I want an upgrade and how I'm going to get it? Not on the chance they thing it's a great idea and they beat me to it.

In this case, though, we're not talking loopholes, or the failure of the rules to address a particular scenario. We are discussing the enforcement of a clearly defined operating rule and the [apparent] lack of desire for an employee to follow it.

The nice thing about a law suit is that perhaps they can show that there were, indeed, rooms available. Then the conductor will have to explain she didn't follow policy to the point of irritating a customer and pushing them to a point of cause for removal.

Or, there were really no rooms until Richmond and the passengers were unreasonable.

 

[Big Iron]

I don't see how onboard upgrades are gaming the system. I, as have other posters here, have heard announcements from onboard crew that upgrades were available and to see the conductor for details. My recollection was this was more common when there was the Chief of onboard services, or whatever that postion was called that has since been eliminated.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In this case, though, we're not talking loopholes, or the failure of the rules to address a particular scenario. We are discussing the enforcement of a clearly defined operating rule and the [apparent] lack of desire for an employee to follow it.

Exactly. If you believe that a by-the-book on board upgrade is "gaming" the system then I suppose the whole Amtrak Guest Rewards program could be considered one big financial scam. Apparently some folks can't separate their suspicions of and disdain toward a single unique incident from the program itself as a whole.

 

[Anderson]

In this case, though, we're not talking loopholes, or the failure of the rules to address a particular scenario. We are discussing the enforcement of a clearly defined operating rule and the [apparent] lack of desire for an employee to follow it.

Exactly. If you believe that a by-the-book on board upgrade is "gaming" the system then I suppose the whole Amtrak Guest Rewards program could be considered one big financial scam. Apparently some folks can't separate their suspicions of and disdain toward a single unique incident from the program itself as a whole.

I suppose I'll pull out one of my grandfather's favorite sayings: First you find out how the system works, then you find out how to work the system. On-board upgrades are nothing more and nothing less than this...and I've never seen any fault in "working the system" insofar as using the rules, as set out, to one's maximum advantage.

There's a difference between that, abusing the system as set up (as I believe that some of the more egregious "loophole" trips could have been considered, though I consider those to be a product of clumsy scheduling rules and so forth...basically, getting some combination of loopholes to combine in a way that just gets truly insane), and outright cheating. The first is perfectly acceptable, the second is a morally arguable gray area, and the third is obviously a problem.

 

[chandj]

Attempting to upgrade to a sleeper on board is not gaming or loop holing or any other such nonsense. It is just riskier than just buying what you really want when you book. Also, just because someone with a bad experience (and I DO consider getting put off the train involuntarily a bad experience). complains doesn't make that person mentally ill. I love traveling Amtrak, but I have had my share of crappy service. I just find it is safer to shut my pie hole and wait until I can contact customer service.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I believe that some of the more egregious "loophole" trips could have been considered [abusing the system]...

Yeah, loophole trips were exactly what they sounded like; obvious attempts to game the system into providing unintended results. No shock that they were eventually removed over time. On board sleeper upgrades come with clear rules and a reasonable risk/reward ratio. Those who are inclined to disagree with the terms are still free to avoid participating.

Attempting to upgrade to a sleeper on board is not gaming or loop holing or any other such nonsense. It is just riskier than just buying what you really want when you book. Also, just because someone with a bad experience (and I DO consider getting put off the train involuntarily a bad experience). complains doesn't make that person mentally ill. I love traveling Amtrak, but I have had my share of crappy service. I just find it is safer to shut my pie hole and wait until I can contact customer service.

Quoted for truth. ^_^