I think the upgrade process is the problem. Passengers in the know try to beat the system. Conductors tired of the process resist. IMHO Amtrak could set up a process for coach passengers to upgrade at low bucket on day of a departure. This is a win win.
Disorderly ? passenger "ejected"
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Having experienced a few Amtrak employees with less than stellar people skills, I can see how this episode escalated into a confrontation. It sounds like this particular conductor needs to have some retraining in her job. Or if she is really unhappy, perhaps pursue something that is less customer oriented 
But it does seem like the passengers should look into getting a sleeper from NYP or WAS on their return trips to Florida. This certainly would have lessened the opportunity for this conductor to play havoc with their trip. I can't believe they saved that much money by upgrading onboard and they sure would have avoided the "ulcers"/
I would agree with the earlier post that it is unfortunate that conductors are burdened with these onboard upgrade responsibilities and that this could be made the responsibility of the car attendants, LSAs, etc. Most conductors see their positions as one of trainmen and not of the onboard staff. Since their tenure on the train is limited to the mileage between their crew change points, they probably have less interest in the needs of the long distance passengers in sleepers. :mellow:
The worst part of this whole incident is that it becomes another black eye for Amtrak in the press, giving those who want Amtrak to fail more ammunition.
Nonetheless; we will be on the Meteor next month and hope we don't see Ms Rose on our trip :help:
But it does seem like the passengers should look into getting a sleeper from NYP or WAS on their return trips to Florida. This certainly would have lessened the opportunity for this conductor to play havoc with their trip.
I can't believe they saved that much money by upgrading onboard and they sure would have avoided the "ulcers"/I would agree with the earlier post that it is unfortunate that conductors are burdened with these onboard upgrade responsibilities and that this could be made the responsibility of the car attendants, LSAs, etc. Most conductors see their positions as one of trainmen and not of the onboard staff. Since their tenure on the train is limited to the mileage between their crew change points, they probably have less interest in the needs of the long distance passengers in sleepers. :mellow:
The worst part of this whole incident is that it becomes another black eye for Amtrak in the press, giving those who want Amtrak to fail more ammunition.
Nonetheless; we will be on the Meteor next month and hope we don't see Ms Rose on our trip :help:
Devil's Advocate
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The idea that passengers are "trying to beat the system" by following it to the letter doesn't make any sense to me. If the conductors are secretly upset at selling a room for too low of a price (a claim which is common but has yet to be substantiated in any way whatsoever) then isn't it their responsibility to take it up with management instead of blaming the passenger?
Conductors are union, so why can't there union step up, and get this policy changed?
This event would of been a non-starter if the Conductor did her job in a timely manner, in which she get pays to do.
So yes this is a experence traveler, but most of us on this web site are too. Does this mean we can not ask for a room by its number, or get a Red Cap to board early so we can get a seat on a certain side of a train.
I agree that this a loop hole that should be change by Amtrak, but the conductor does not have the option of selling a berth to someone. It's there job.
Last question: So if the adult son was cause all the problems why was the mother kick off the train too?
I know stop thinking, but it's what I do.
This event would of been a non-starter if the Conductor did her job in a timely manner, in which she get pays to do.
So yes this is a experence traveler, but most of us on this web site are too. Does this mean we can not ask for a room by its number, or get a Red Cap to board early so we can get a seat on a certain side of a train.
I agree that this a loop hole that should be change by Amtrak, but the conductor does not have the option of selling a berth to someone. It's there job.
Last question: So if the adult son was cause all the problems why was the mother kick off the train too?
I know stop thinking, but it's what I do.
IMHO the conductor is upset by the extra paper work. I did this twice years ago and it appeared to be a laborious process. I appreciated the efforts of both conductors. Neither was happy about the work, but they did it.
The system sets up an adversarial relationship between the conductor and passenger. If the passenger checks sleeper rooms on day of departure and sees a high price, the passenger knows to wait and get the low bucket fare on the train. I don't think the conductors care about the price of the room. They just don't want the extra work. So they resist. If the conductor legitimately has to deal with train orders, meets with freights, collecting tickets, etc the passenger might not understand. Then that is unpleasant too. It's a no win situation for the conductor.
This does not excuse the nastiness of the conductor in thus case.
I think the technology already exists to sell sleepers at low bucket prices on day of departure. This might allow coach seats to open up on a sold out train. This would not create that much work for ticket agents. It would then take the conductors out of picture. I think the current system is a part of the old way of doing things before computers.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
maybe amtrak should install security cameras on the trains so we can really see who is at fault.
PaulM
Engineer
Count me as one of them. If there is a room available, and I have the money to pay for it, and I'm first in line, then I'm entitled to it, at least until Amtrak changes their policy.
The problem with having fares "dive" on the day of a trip is three-fold:
1) Unlike airlines, the Auto Train notwithstanding, none of Amtrak's trains are nonstop. So you've got a variable number of rooms available...to take the Meteor, you might have 4 rooms to RVR, 2 from RVR-CHS, 3 from CHS-JAX, 4 JAX-ORL, and 12 ORL-MIA. What do you "down-price"?
2) Amtrak allows re-booking if room prices fall. Wouldn't a last-minute cut in fares risk a lot of money "walking out the door" with canny re-booking? With a train of canny passengers, it would seem that there's the risk of a couple of thousand dollars walking out the door that way.
3) Amtrak would probably end up encouraging last-minute gambling with this...the bucket system is Byzantine enough as it is, but I don't like there being an incentive to gamble with bookings in the off-season.
The biggest problem I see with the on-board upgrade isn't the work for the conductor (which will likely get streamlined in the next few years as e-tickets go into the mix), but rather the risk of one of the super-LD trains getting oversold in the sleepers if someone upgrades and then someone else buys the room at the last minute. Now, I'll agree that Amtrak should cut the workload on the conductors as much as possible, but this is one of those cases where things do seem to work moderately well.
A thought came to mind: Does anybody know what would likely have happened if the passengers in this story had simply called customer service? I say this knowing all too well how bad reception is between WAS and RVR, but it does come to mind as an option in a situation like this.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
Well put.
Is selling an upgrade on-board, the only task that requires the conductor to collect money? And if so, is the conductor now personally responsible for that money? Maybe the process needs to be changed such that the LSA, who is already responsible for collecting money, "sells" the upgrade?
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
One reason to wait until onboard 'The Silvers' to get a room at low bucket is that rooms on The Silvers are not cheap. That said, if you don't book a room, there is always the possibility you'll spend the trip in coach. That is a fact. The reason might be that all rooms have been sold. Or it could be because the conductor won't/can't deal with selling the upgrade. But that is the risk one takes.
Who is right and who is wrong? My experiences tell me that both are probably both, but as I was not there, how the heck should I know? :wacko:
Who is right and who is wrong? My experiences tell me that both are probably both, but as I was not there, how the heck should I know? :wacko:
These our good points. One work around is if a passenger cancels for any reason within 24 hours, there is some sort of penalty that makes it financially unattractive to cancel and rebook at a lower rate. Or maybe, just drop the fares a few hours before departure from the endpoint city.
Calling customer service from the train is useless. All that accomplishes is somebody taking the complaint and promising to get back to you. I had some serious complaints regarding an experience on the Texas Eagle. I called customer service after the trip. And nothing has happened.
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VentureForth
Engineer
I don't think there is a fare dive on the date of travel. For instance, if there is a room available from WAS to MIA and I board at NYP, calling Amtrak would result in probably the highest bucket available. It is a matter of policy that makes the room on board at the lowest bucket. That being said, I don't quite know if the room is sold at the lowest bucket and then lowered even further to account for perhaps a higher bucket on the rail fare portion.
All that being said, the policy is fine. The purpose is to increase revenue where up until the moment the train left its origin, there wasn't. The risk to the consumer is no room. The benefit is the lowest rate. The snag is a nasty conductor who doesn't want to do his/her job.
No, the conductor must also collect money/take a credit card from someone who books at the last minute and boards from an unstaffed station where there is no way to obtain a ticket.
As for having the LSA do it, that would be an option if Amtrak changed the rules. But currently it is the conductor's responsibility to handle all revenue matters regarding passage on the train. Can this rule be changed? Sure! The question is does Amtrak want to change it and does it make sense for Amtrak to change it?
And in partial response to Texas Sunset, having the SCA do it is not an option, since they are not revenue agents for Amtrak. It would require additional training and several rules changes for that to happen. And frankly it simply doesn't make sense either. Why train all the SCA's to do something that an LSA already knows how to do?
If we assume that the passenger is correctly relaying that bit of info, and I've no reason to doubt them, then yes! It is quite clear that Ms. Rose was intent on dumping the passenger's request onto the next set of conductors so that she didn't have to do the work her job requires her to do.
Devil's Advocate
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Just for the record I'm fine with anything that gets empty rooms sold in a quick and friendly manner. ^_^
Right now that does not appear to be the case on the trains I ride the most. -_-
We regularly hear that Amtrak operates at a deficit but you would think that they would make every effort to sell every open sleeper on every train to increase revenue. Right now its left to the descretion of the conductor and in some cases lazy people in those positions do not wish to do or refuse to do the paperwork. Amtrak needs a new rule that says the train conductor must announce to all coach passengers that any available sleepers are being offered to those wishing to purchase them on a first come first serve basis. I can only guess how much revenue Amtrak loses because of incompetant staff.
The lazy conductors will simply not do it. They will find any number if ways to explain why it wasn't done.
Now if they have portable credit card/ ticketing machines that can print the ticke and take credit card payment, maybe that will work. But these machines have to also interface instantly with the reservation database. What happens when the wifi on the train fails, or there is no cell reception? We are back to square one with excuses for lazy conductors.
I'm not saying all conductors are lazy. Many will probably do their job. I'm just stating that technology won't magically solve all of the problems.
Now if they have portable credit card/ ticketing machines that can print the ticke and take credit card payment, maybe that will work. But these machines have to also interface instantly with the reservation database. What happens when the wifi on the train fails, or there is no cell reception? We are back to square one with excuses for lazy conductors.
I'm not saying all conductors are lazy. Many will probably do their job. I'm just stating that technology won't magically solve all of the problems.
With e-Ticketing being rolled out over the next year, as well as those portable ticket lifters/Point Of Sale machines being distributed (the Amtrak California trains have been beta testing the machines for the past year, so there is a test-bed already in place for Amtrak to study implementation system-wide) there is real chance that this will be possible in the very near future. No, there are no guarantees that problems will not occur where the old system of paperwork would need to be substituted, but if the company can work it so that 80 to 90 percent of the business from POS transactions are processed immediately and the rest are processed automatically when system connectivity is re-established then we are on the road to resolving this issue.
There is also plenty of merit in allowing the LSA to process the transaction for on-board upgrades. But for the time being, IMHO, I think the best plan is to reserve early, use aids such as AmSnag, and grab your accommodations before getting on-board to avoid the gamble all together!
PaulM
Engineer
What's high maintenance about trying to purchase a product that is for sale?
I don't think you can be kicked out for being high maintenance. I got asked to stay out of a restaurant for acting an idiot and cursing somebody out. And I probably should have been kicked out. There are other establishments that are not customer service oriented. If the employees are consistently snappy, and have a take or leave it attitude, then more customers would snap back, and some curse, and then be asked to leave. In my case it would have been better to stop going, and find a better restaurant. You cant change ignorance.
I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.
I know during arguments I've actually trained myself to try and refrain from any sort of name calling or use of profanity, thereby making me at least look like the better person. lol
But I also agree the policy needs to be changed about on-board upgrades. I'm partial to the "black/white" way. Either every conductor has to do an on-board upgrade if asked, or no conductor has to. Easier to figure out then who's at fault for not doing their job.
I know during arguments I've actually trained myself to try and refrain from any sort of name calling or use of profanity, thereby making me at least look like the better person. lol
But I also agree the policy needs to be changed about on-board upgrades. I'm partial to the "black/white" way. Either every conductor has to do an on-board upgrade if asked, or no conductor has to. Easier to figure out then who's at fault for not doing their job.
I'd be willing to take a "mixed" policy of some kind (i.e. "Upgrades must be offered and requests honored under the following conditions but not under these other conditions", for example requiring them to be granted in the event of a major delay), but it definitely needs to be more definitive. I even recall hearing a call to the effect of "Anybody who wants to upgrade for the night, see the conductor" on (I believe) the Zephyr. IIRC, this may have been in a delay-heavy winter (I'm thinking Winter, 2008), and an ambitious conductor got it in their mind to fill a bunch of unexpectedly emptied sleeping accommodations east of Denver.
When I ran into another forum member last winter, he said he'd been able to frequently get upgrades on the western trains, and the only time I asked for an upgrade was on the SWC when it was far behind schedule. So I'm going to take a wild stab and say that I think the Western conductors are more open to this than the Eastern conductors are...but I think that may be due to the large number of long delays those trains have seen over the years resulting in no-shows (people "walking away" from a train that is twelve hours late), misconnects, people getting put on a night leg unexpectedly (i.e. my SWC story), and so forth.
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G
Guest
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The passenger's side of the story is so plausible that I can easily believe it. I have personally experienced a lot of rude Amtrak employees and by now just expect at least one rude employee working on the train. I always hope for it to be the snack car attendant since they have the least effect on my trip. It is sad that I have to think that way. I kind of have the feeling that a lot of it is reverse racism for me at least, but who knows.
The bad thing is these are probably the kind of passengers that Amtrak could do well from an image point of view. They don't sound like train nuts, or scared to fly or any other group that has no other choice. These people deliberately made an informed choice and got screwed from it. Amtrak needs more non-niche passengers like this to strengthen their legitimacy, but that will never happen with rude employees. Now these people are going to swing to the other side and support killing it.
The bad thing is these are probably the kind of passengers that Amtrak could do well from an image point of view. They don't sound like train nuts, or scared to fly or any other group that has no other choice. These people deliberately made an informed choice and got screwed from it. Amtrak needs more non-niche passengers like this to strengthen their legitimacy, but that will never happen with rude employees. Now these people are going to swing to the other side and support killing it.
VentureForth
Engineer
Remember that conductors generally work very roughly 8 hour shifts - or perhaps more accurately, between city pairs roughly 8 hours apart.
The point is, of you don't like the conductor, and you are traveling far enough to justify it, just wait until the next conductor if you are denied.
And Texas Sunset, I know you can't seem to catch a break on your routes. It's hard. I took Amtrak from Dallas to Savannah last Summer on a rewards trip and the only leg I couldn't get sleeper on was the Texas Eagle. What can I say? The Texas trains are way popular. Though I will say the best on board upgrade I ever had was from St Louis to Mineola. $36.
That was, however, back in 2000...
The point is, of you don't like the conductor, and you are traveling far enough to justify it, just wait until the next conductor if you are denied.
And Texas Sunset, I know you can't seem to catch a break on your routes. It's hard. I took Amtrak from Dallas to Savannah last Summer on a rewards trip and the only leg I couldn't get sleeper on was the Texas Eagle. What can I say? The Texas trains are way popular. Though I will say the best on board upgrade I ever had was from St Louis to Mineola. $36.
That was, however, back in 2000...
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jis
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Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.
As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.
As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.
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