Dreamliner Nightmares

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The Electra was done in by the Jet passenger aircraft that came out about the same time. The Electra was a turboprop. As the Navy P-3 Lockheed built 757, many of them are still in service 50 years later. The DC-10 was built for nearly 20 years Over 440 DC-10/KC-10 were built and considered a very successful aircraft. "The DC-10's lifetime safety record is comparable to similar second-generation passenger jets as of 2008." "Statistical Summary of Commercial Jet Airplane Accidents (1959-2008)." Boeing. This also the year that the last DC-10 flew with major carriers in revenue service.
 
Not again! This is gonna ruin the 787's reputation big time! If they don't iron out the problems, then I won't fly this airline-G4500.
Ethiopian Airlines 787 on fire at LHR this afternoon, looks like the dung will be hitting the fan big time in Seattle......
Yeah, Boeing better develop the 777X or a new 767X soon. Right now they're gonna get all sprayed up with that dung. Teething problems won't explain this one well after the supposed "battery fix."
One thing for sure. It was not the batteries. No batteries in that area. There is a galley right there, and there are heat sources in galleys. Just saying.
Well, they fixed the batteries and another kind of fire pops out. This just means even more problems.

This is Electra and DC-10 all over again. Even though any problems those ships may have had were corrected and perfected the media hype and exposure already killed them off.
Electra was a bust, but the DC-10 sold fine. Right now the 787 orders are double the number of all DC-10s built, so I guess the airlines had more confidence in the 787 before all these issues.
 
This is Electra and DC-10 all over again. Even though any problems those ships may have had were corrected and perfected the media hype and exposure already killed them off.
Electra was a bust, but the DC-10 sold fine. Right now the 787 orders are double the number of all DC-10s built, so I guess the airlines had more confidence in the 787 before all these issues.
Actually DC-10s went on to have a derivative MD-11 which sold many copies and are still flying in commercial service, more often as freighters than passenger carriers.
Unless something much more severe than what has been found so far strikes the 787 it has zero chance of being a failure. Many of you were not around when the 747 went into service. If you think this is problematic you'd have been convinced that the 747 would be discontinued within a year or two while Boeing started working on derivatives of 707s, if they had not already gone bankrupt and had been dissolved as a company.

Airlines still seem to have confidence in 787s since (a) they are still operating them and (b) placing more orders for them.

But of course what will happen in the future is anyone's guess.
 
This is Electra and DC-10 all over again. Even though any problems those ships may have had were corrected and perfected the media hype and exposure already killed them off.
Electra was a bust, but the DC-10 sold fine. Right now the 787 orders are double the number of all DC-10s built, so I guess the airlines had more confidence in the 787 before all these issues.
Actually DC-10s went on to have a derivative MD-11 which sold many copies and are still flying in commercial service, more often as freighters than passenger carriers.
Unless something much more severe than what has been found so far strikes the 787 it has zero chance of being a failure. Many of you were not around when the 747 went into service. If you think this is problematic you'd have been convinced that the 747 would be discontinued within a year or two while Boeing started working on derivatives of 707s, if they had not already gone bankrupt and had been dissolved as a company.

Airlines still seem to have confidence in 787s since (a) they are still operating them and (b) placing more orders for them.

But of course what will happen in the future is anyone's guess.
Arguably though, the MD-11 passenger version was a bust. Now only KLM operates it and they're getting rid of them in favour of more efficient aircraft.

Airlines will continue to buy and operate this efficient plane, but these media report will like undermine ridership, even though most people have no idea what type of plane they are flying on.

I can understand the 747 developmental problems, considering how large the aircraft was compared to anything previously built. I know the 787 is supposed to have revolutionary features, but the 747 only took four years from launch to introduction compared to eight years for the 787.
 
Airlines will continue to buy and operate this efficient plane, but these media report will like undermine ridership, even though most people have no idea what type of plane they are flying on.
Do you have $10 to spare? Lets put in a bet- passengers or the industry at large is not going to see any "undermined ridership" due to these issues. Do a quick survey- ask ten people around you how many of them decide their tickets based on plane type, or even know what route is flown by a 787. If the airline offers a flight at a fare that the passenger wants, they will continue buying the tickets, doesn't matter if its a 787 or DC-10 for all you care. When I ask my friends if they know what plane they were on, their answer is invariably "just a normal one", or at best "big one" or "small one".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Arguably though, the MD-11 passenger version was a bust. Now only KLM operates it and they're getting rid of them in favour of more efficient aircraft.
The key word in that is "arguably" and it all depends on ones definition of bust. It did not sell a large number of copies, but the reason for that is that the time for tri-jets was already waning by the time the MD-11 came out, and the reason for tr-jets was pretty much going away. So I am not sure the issue was technical or passenger impression or anything like that, which was alleged for the "failure" of the DC-10. MD-11 was actually more of a creature of Mac-Dac's inability at that point to invest in a true next gen jumbo than anything else. It was sot of Mac-Dac's version of what Airbus originally tried to do in the way of the 350, before they redid the project after getting a swift kick or two from some of their larger customers.
Airlines will continue to buy and operate this efficient plane, but these media report will like undermine ridership, even though most people have no idea what type of plane they are flying on.
My bet is unless one crashes and burns there will be zero effect on anything from media reports. Afterall it is not only the experts who laugh at some of the silly things that appear in the media these days. And non-experts do not bother to read anything that takes more than three cells of the brain to comprehend. :) So no. There will be zero effect.
I can understand the 747 developmental problems, considering how large the aircraft was compared to anything previously built. I know the 787 is supposed to have revolutionary features, but the 747 only took four years from launch to introduction compared to eight years for the 787.
In some sense the 787s development problems had three components
(a) Technical: Using complete fuselage barrels that are fabricated as a single unit. This is a first for such a large fuselage, and the technology for it had to be developed. In addition designing a totally "electric" plane with no use of bleed air for pressurization etc. The roots of the battery problems lie in this latter technical innovation.

(b) Organization: Extensive outsourcing and management of supply chains that come with it.

© Managerial: Chaos in Boeing executive suite specially in the early phases.

All three conspired to create quite a mess for a while and hence the extraordinary amount of time that it took to get things to settle down.

My idle hypothesis also is that Boeing was struggling for its existence when it was developing the 747, having way overcommitted themselves based on a promise of orders from Juan Tripp. So they were much more focused on building the thing, and were not involved in interesting latter day organizational experiments. Which made the progress of that particular project the centerpiece of their existence.

In contrast, the 787 was yet another project, albeit large. They felt comfortable enough to experiment with revolutionary logistical changes some of which worked and some did not. And at no time were they under any threat of going bankrupt. This caused them to be less focused and all over the place. The results are self-evident.
 
Currently the center of attention of the investigation is reportedly the ELT (Emergency Location Transmitter) battery, which Lithium-Magnesium. The ELT is manufactured by Honywell and is used in many other aircrafts also.
 
Airlines will continue to buy and operate this efficient plane, but these media report will like undermine ridership, even though most people have no idea what type of plane they are flying on.
Do you have $10 to spare? Lets put in a bet- passengers or the industry at large is not going to see any "undermined ridership" due to these issues. Do a quick survey- ask ten people around you how many of them decide their tickets based on plane type, or even know what route is flown by a 787. If the airline offers a flight at a fare that the passenger wants, they will continue buying the tickets, doesn't matter if its a 787 or DC-10 for all you care. When I ask my friends if they know what plane they were on, their answer is invariably "just a normal one", or at best "big one" or "small one".
But I did say that most people have no idea what type of plane they are flying on. So of course most people don't know any sliver of difference between a 787 and a DC-10, or heck, they don't even know what a 747 is!

Arguably though, the MD-11 passenger version was a bust. Now only KLM operates it and they're getting rid of them in favour of more efficient aircraft.
The key word in that is "arguably" and it all depends on ones definition of bust. It did not sell a large number of copies, but the reason for that is that the time for tri-jets was already waning by the time the MD-11 came out, and the reason for tr-jets was pretty much going away. So I am not sure the issue was technical or passenger impression or anything like that, which was alleged for the "failure" of the DC-10. MD-11 was actually more of a creature of Mac-Dac's inability at that point to invest in a true next gen jumbo than anything else. It was sot of Mac-Dac's version of what Airbus originally tried to do in the way of the 350, before they redid the project after getting a swift kick or two from some of their larger customers.
Airlines will continue to buy and operate this efficient plane, but these media report will like undermine ridership, even though most people have no idea what type of plane they are flying on.
My bet is unless one crashes and burns there will be zero effect on anything from media reports. Afterall it is not only the experts who laugh at some of the silly things that appear in the media these days. And non-experts do not bother to read anything that takes more than three cells of the brain to comprehend. :) So no. There will be zero effect.
I can understand the 747 developmental problems, considering how large the aircraft was compared to anything previously built. I know the 787 is supposed to have revolutionary features, but the 747 only took four years from launch to introduction compared to eight years for the 787.
In some sense the 787s development problems had three components
(a) Technical: Using complete fuselage barrels that are fabricated as a single unit. This is a first for such a large fuselage, and the technology for it had to be developed. In addition designing a totally "electric" plane with no use of bleed air for pressurization etc. The roots of the battery problems lie in this latter technical innovation.

(b) Organization: Extensive outsourcing and management of supply chains that come with it.

© Managerial: Chaos in Boeing executive suite specially in the early phases.

All three conspired to create quite a mess for a while and hence the extraordinary amount of time that it took to get things to settle down.

My idle hypothesis also is that Boeing was struggling for its existence when it was developing the 747, having way overcommitted themselves based on a promise of orders from Juan Tripp. So they were much more focused on building the thing, and were not involved in interesting latter day organizational experiments. Which made the progress of that particular project the centerpiece of their existence.

In contrast, the 787 was yet another project, albeit large. They felt comfortable enough to experiment with revolutionary logistical changes some of which worked and some did not. And at no time were they under any threat of going bankrupt. This caused them to be less focused and all over the place. The results are self-evident.
Thanks for your time. This does make sense, but I don't understand what caused the managerial chaos. Those technical problems remind me of Greyhound ordering the G4500, they used too much new technology, materials, and construction techniques. This resulted in the biggest fleet failure in Greyhound history.

Currently the center of attention of the investigation is reportedly the ELT (Emergency Location Transmitter) battery, which Lithium-Magnesium. The ELT is manufactured by Honywell and is used in many other aircrafts also.
So, it's another battery problem. Not the same battery I assume, but Boeing's gonna have to churn out some good answers for this. Boeing is at risk of losing their position as the dominant worldwide widebody manufacturer. Now I'll be waiting to see how the A350 fares.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The ELT battery is a sealed battery that comes with the ELT, (which is located in the vicinity of where the charring was found) and is not ever charged from the aircraft. It is a long life battery that is independent of any aircraft system. It is used only after the aircraft crashes to power the Location Transmitter for an extended period of time, so that it can continue transmitting the radio signal until the wreckage is found hopefully.

If this turns out to be the case (and still a big if on that one) then this one is not going to be Boeing's problem alone per se. If this proves to be the cause there could potentially be lot of ADs against many aircraft models, both Boeing and Airbus that use the same or similar ELT from Honeywell, depending on whether it was a problem with a single batch or was more pervasive. This would be similar to the issue with Thales Pitot Tubes on AF447, which caused a blanket replacement requirement for all such Pitot Tubes on all makes of aircraft that used them. But we are getting ahead of ourselves here. Let us wait for there to be some conclusive results.

BTW, the chaos in the Boeing executive suite was because of serious governance problems (plus a philandering CEO) that caused Lew Platt to take over as Chairman and then to kick the CEO out the door, among other things. There was some serious executive house cleaning and shuffling at Boeing back then, which inevitably affects management of large projects.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The ELT battery is a sealed battery that comes with the ELT, (which is located in the vicinity of where the charring was found) and is not ever charged from the aircraft. It is a long life battery that is independent of any aircraft system. It is used only after the aircraft crashes to power the Location Transmitter for an extended period of time, so that it can continue transmitting the radio signal until the wreckage is found hopefully.
If this turns out to be the case (and still a big if on that one) then this one is not going to be Boeing's problem alone per se. If this proves to be the cause there could potentially be lot of ADs against many aircraft models, both Boeing and Airbus that use the same or similar ELT from Honeywell, depending on whether it was a problem with a single batch or was more pervasive. This would be similar to the issue with Thales Pitot Tubes on AF447, which caused a blanket replacement requirement for all such Pitot Tubes on all makes of aircraft that used them. But we are getting ahead of ourselves here. Let us wait for there to be some conclusive results.

BTW, the chaos in the Boeing executive suite was because of serious governance problems (plus a philandering CEO) that caused Lew Platt to take over as Chairman and then to kick the CEO out the door, among other things. There was some serious executive house cleaning and shuffling at Boeing back then, which inevitably affects management of large projects.
I'll just be patient for the answers. Boeing really got mssed up with all that CEO madness and other messing around. I hope they get sorted out soon.

Thanks, Jishnu.
 
Ah, it was just an indicator. As the article states, no real emergency. But I know that small problems which aren't fixed correctly could cause a major accident.
 
Guess what... planes across the world return back to airports when some minor abnormality is spotted, just because it is a 787 so makes it to news. Same day, same airport, today itself IcelandAir 757 also returned back to Boston due to a minor warning, did it make it to the news?
The 757 has a much longer track record to help put new concerns into proper perspective. The 777 crash landing at SFO was a fatal event and yet I'm far less concerned about it because the 777 has already proven itself to be safe and reliable over millions of miles of uneventful flying. The 747 has had some of the worst accidents in aviation history, but even those terrible events are balanced out by decades of continuous service for legions of airlines all over the world. Unlike the 747, 757, or 777 the 787 hasn't proven itself as of yet. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. From what I've read one thing that has changed since Boeing's previous designs is a move by cash starved regulators toward more self-certification of safety regulations. In the IT world it is generally understood that even the best designer is unlikely to be an effective tester and reviewer of their own work. You need someone who can review the work objectively and who doesn't feel pressure to ignore or look past potential mistakes. Prior to the 787 this was an acknowledged phenomenon in commercial aviation as well, but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore. There will always be those who claim that any bad press is just the media's fascination with sensationalism, but as the list of incidents grows it gets harder and harder to ignore.
 
Agree with DA....unfortunately for Boeing, the 787 is under intense scrutiny right now, and the press seems to love "piling-on"........
 
Preliminary reports from the Brits investigative agency has centered the fire on the ELT. They don't know if the ELT started it or a very nearby short yet.
 
Guess what... planes across the world return back to airports when some minor abnormality is spotted, just because it is a 787 so makes it to news. Same day, same airport, today itself IcelandAir 757 also returned back to Boston due to a minor warning, did it make it to the news?
The 757 has a much longer track record to help put new concerns into proper perspective. The 777 crash landing at SFO was a fatal event and yet I'm far less concerned about it because the 777 has already proven itself to be safe and reliable over millions of miles of uneventful flying. The 747 has had some of the worst accidents in aviation history, but even those terrible events are balanced out by decades of continuous service for legions of airlines all over the world. Unlike the 747, 757, or 777 the 787 hasn't proven itself as of yet. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. From what I've read one thing that has changed since Boeing's previous designs is a move by cash starved regulators toward more self-certification of safety regulations. In the IT world it is generally understood that even the best designer is unlikely to be an effective tester and reviewer of their own work. You need someone who can review the work objectively and who doesn't feel pressure to ignore or look past potential mistakes. Prior to the 787 this was an acknowledged phenomenon in commercial aviation as well, but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore. There will always be those who claim that any bad press is just the media's fascination with sensationalism, but as the list of incidents grows it gets harder and harder to ignore.
Even though the 747 has had very bad accidents, most were not caused by the plane malfunctioning. The Terenife accident was pilot error, JAL 123 was pilot error combined with faulty maintainence, SA 163 was more pilot error, and a bunch of mid-air explosions were caused by terrorism.

TWA 800 was apparently caused by electrical problems, though no one is sure exaclty what caused the explosion.

Just some info.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Even though the 747 has had very bad accidents, most were not caused by the plane malfunctioning. The Terenife accident was pilot error, JAL 123 was pilot error combined with faulty maintainence, SA 163 was more pilot error, and a bunch of mid-air explosions were caused by terrorism.
747s also had some really close calls. The most (in)famous one was when a Pan Am 747 took off with half the approach lights gantries of SFO inserted into its belly due to a mistaken runway length assumption. It managed to come back and make a landing with everyone intact. The plane not so much.

Someone on airliners.net pointed out that now that there are over 50 787s flying, by this stage the first A320 hull loss and fatality had already taken place. But as usual, that is neither here nor there, as one of my previous bosses used to say.

What is curious is that dispatch reliability is all over the place depending on airline. Notwithstanding all of the bellyaching in the press, ANA and JAL have excellent dispatch reliability whereas United has been relatively unimpressive, though of late improving considerably.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lithium batteries: ‘It’s more than a 787 issue’
WASHINGTON -- If the lithium battery-fed fire that scorched a parked and empty Boeing Dreamliner jet in London had occurred over the ocean, hours from an airport, the result could have been catastrophic.

The July 12 blaze on the Ethiopian Airlines 787 was in a difficult-to-reach space and couldn't be put out by the plane's fire extinguishers,according to British regulators. Only one-third of airliners with such hidden fires can be expected to land safely, an earlier British study concluded.

Lithium cells are lighter, more powerful and longer-lived than other batteries. They power devices from the iPhone to the Boeing 787 and some of its components, including the Honeywell International emergency locator transmitter linked to the London fire.

They can in rare instances overheat in uncontrollable chemical reactions, creating the risk of disastrous fires, as their use proliferates in passengers' personal electronics and aircraft systems, said John Cox, a Washington-based aviation safety consultant who co-wrote a 2013 British Royal Aeronautical Society report on aircraft fires.
 
Even though the 747 has had very bad accidents, most were not caused by the plane malfunctioning. The Terenife accident was pilot error, JAL 123 was pilot error combined with faulty maintainence, SA 163 was more pilot error, and a bunch of mid-air explosions were caused by terrorism.
747s also had some really close calls. The most (in)famous one was when a Pan Am 747 took off with half the approach lights gantries of SFO inserted into its belly due to a mistaken runway length assumption. It managed to come back and make a landing with everyone intact. The plane not so much.

Someone on airliners.net pointed out that now that there are over 50 787s flying, by this stage the first A320 hull loss and fatality had already taken place. But as usual, that is neither here nor there, as one of my previous bosses used to say.

What is curious is that dispatch reliability is all over the place depending on airline. Notwithstanding all of the bellyaching in the press, ANA and JAL have excellent dispatch reliability whereas United has been relatively unimpressive, though of late improving considerably.
You are on a.net? What's your username, haven't seen a Jis or Jishnu while lurking on their forums. I'm not on a.net because I don't want to pay their membership fee.

United reliability seems OK on international flights, the 747s flying out of SFO seem to have good OTP or at least make up delays in flight. Maybe domectic is the problems?
 
You are on a.net? What's your username, haven't seen a Jis or Jishnu while lurking on their forums. I'm not on a.net because I don't want to pay their membership fee.
COEWR787

They would not let me use a three character handle. :)

United reliability seems OK on international flights, the 747s flying out of SFO seem to have good OTP or at least make up delays in flight. Maybe domectic is the problems?
I was talking of their 787 dispatch reliability. 747 dispatch reliability was getting so bad BTW that they basically shut down all 747 service and moved them over to 777s, except from home base SFO, and that fixed the problem for now. But the 747s are going to stick around only until the Airbus 350-1000s and 787-10s start appearing, which gives them still a few more years.
 
You are on a.net? What's your username, haven't seen a Jis or Jishnu while lurking on their forums. I'm not on a.net because I don't want to pay their membership fee.
COEWR787

They would not let me use a three character handle. :)

United reliability seems OK on international flights, the 747s flying out of SFO seem to have good OTP or at least make up delays in flight. Maybe domestic is the problems?
I was talking of their 787 dispatch reliability. 747 dispatch reliability was getting so bad BTW that they basically shut down all 747 service and moved them over to 777s, except from home base SFO, and that fixed the problem for now. But the 747s are going to stick around only until the Airbus 350-1000s and 787-10s start appearing, which gives them still a few more years.
Hey, I'll see if I can find you on some a.net posts! But I won't be paying that membership fee just to chat about some planes. It's only $25 one-time for a regular membership but I still don't like to waste money, reflected in me trying to find cheap Greyhound fares. :)
 
Back
Top