Empire Builder in need of spare equipment!

[anir dendroica]

The past two weeks of delays, and possibly a much longer stretch of deferred maintenance, have really taken a toll on the Empire Builder. I rode it from St. Paul to Portland, arriving 7:40 late yesterday. Our delays were 75% Amtrak equipment failure, 25% BNSF stuck red signals and frozen switches. Kudos to the BNSF dispatchers, as we never waited more than five minutes for a freight, despite heavy freight traffic between Marias Pass and Portland. I'm afraid I can't say the same for Amtrak, since our delays forced BNSF to delay their hotshot trains behind us. With winter weather difficulties, I would expect most trains to incur 2-3 hours of delay over the route, but the EB has been reliably 5-10 hours late on the days that it actually manages to run.

About that equipment failure...

We lost 45 minutes in Minot with a failed headlight. Descending Marias Pass, we had dynamic brake problems, forcing the engineer to use the air brakes exclusively and to stop the train briefly in order to recharge the brakes. That was an easy fix (MU cable). In Spokane, two of our engines failed (air compressor on one and a more serious issue with the other). They decided to use a freight unit on the Seattle train and to send the one remaining good unit with the Portland section. The two dead engines wouldn't move or release the air, so they had to do all the switching with #29. The whole operation, as heard on the scanner, seemed poorly organized, and it didn't need to take 2 1/2 hours. Coming out of Spokane, the horn on #29 froze, forcing us to slow to 20 mph for every road crossing. Nothing hurts a train fan's ego more than watching his train slow down for cars :-(. We arranged for BNSF mechanical to work on the horn at Pasco, but they decided to just give us a Dash-9 instead. Just outside of Spokane, someone left the water running on the top level of the lounge car, causing it to rain downstairs and blowing the electrical circuitry, so from that point on the lounge had no ventilation, heat, or working toilets.

Failure of an engine on a route, as happened on my previous trip, seems normal. Failure of ALL THREE engines, when those engines are less than 15 years old, is unacceptable and has to point to inadequate maintenance. It looks like yesterday's 8/28 and possibly today's are canceled (service disruption at least), likely because Amtrak is now short two engines (assuming the horn fix was easy enough) and a lounge car.

So...

1) Why so much trouble with trains 7/8 and not with the rest of the system? Are P42s somehow not designed for cold weather?

2) How will this situation improve? Does Amtrak have enough spare P42s/Superliners to put together one or two consists so that the existing ones can be overhauled, or might it be better to cancel service for a week in order to perform deferred maintenance?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The only Superliner problem I think I see mentioned there is the water running in the lounge car. That doesn't sound to me like it reflects work that needs to be done on every lounge car used on the Empire Builder.

Regarding the locomotives, Amtrak has an almost unlimited supply of mothballed P42 and P40 locomotives relative to their current needs.

 

[anir dendroica]

The only Superliner problem I think I see mentioned there is the water running in the lounge car. That doesn't sound to me like it reflects work that needs to be done on every lounge car used on the Empire Builder.
Regarding the locomotives, Amtrak has an almost unlimited supply of mothballed P42 and P40 locomotives relative to their current needs.

Certainly not every Superliner needs work, but just last week two coaches were bad-ordered in Portland, forcing substitution of two Amfleets out of Seattle. It might be cost-prohibitive, but it would sure work better if Amtrak could keep one extra 8/28 consist in Seattle/Portland, so that a severely delayed #7 would not delay the return and so that in times without delays Amtrak would have a day to work on failed horns, air compressors, and flooded lounge cars. Certainly the fact that only one EB has been less than four hours late arriving CHI or SEA since Dec. 19 is worthy of discussion. Yes, there were infrastructure problems (two derailments in Montana, track damage at Whitefish, severe weather in CHI and the Cascades), but I am disturbed by the fact that Amtrak seems unable to recover now that those problems have been resolved.

 

[Ryan]

Failure of ALL THREE engines, when those engines are less than 15 years old, is unacceptable and has to point to inadequate maintenance.

Not really. Random breakdowns happen all the time, and statistical outliers are perfectly normal. Sounds like it just wasn't the EB's lucky day.

As far as spare consists, laying around, if there were the money to have more coaches, Amtrak would be much better off to use them to generate revenue, not sit idle in a yard waiting for something to break.

 

[had8ley]

About that equipment failure...
We lost 45 minutes in Minot with a failed headlight. Descending Marias Pass, we had dynamic brake problems, forcing the engineer to use the air brakes exclusively and to stop the train briefly in order to recharge the brakes. That was an easy fix (MU cable). likely because Amtrak is now short two engines (assuming the horn fix was easy enough) and a lounge car.

Just two observations about your problems; the MU cable has nothing to do with the train line. It conveys whatever commands the engineer delivers from the throttle, dynamic brake, headlight control and a host of other commands. The air hoses between cars and engines supply the air for the train line. If dynamics had been involved then yes, the MU cable would have come in to play. As far as the horn goes I've had a brakeman ride the second unit and blow when I told him to over the radio. I'm sure any A/C worth his salt would be willing to do so in order to get a train over the road.

P.S. A dead engine's whistle will operate if there is air in the train line. It can be deader than a door nail but the whistle will still blow.

 

[wayman]

As far as the horn goes I've had a brakeman ride the second unit and blow when I told him to over the radio. I'm sure any A/C worth his salt would be willing to do so in order to get a train over the road.

If there had been a second unit between Spokane and Portland I imagine they might have done this, but at the point where the horn froze up, there was only one engine on the train.

 

[anir dendroica]

About that equipment failure...
We lost 45 minutes in Minot with a failed headlight. Descending Marias Pass, we had dynamic brake problems, forcing the engineer to use the air brakes exclusively and to stop the train briefly in order to recharge the brakes. That was an easy fix (MU cable). likely because Amtrak is now short two engines (assuming the horn fix was easy enough) and a lounge car.

Just two observations about your problems; the MU cable has nothing to do with the train line. It conveys whatever commands the engineer delivers from the throttle, dynamic brake, headlight control and a host of other commands. The air hoses between cars and engines supply the air for the train line. If dynamics had been involved then yes, the MU cable would have come in to play. As far as the horn goes I've had a brakeman ride the second unit and blow when I told him to over the radio. I'm sure any A/C worth his salt would be willing to do so in order to get a train over the road.

P.S. A dead engine's whistle will operate if there is air in the train line. It can be deader than a door nail but the whistle will still blow.

If you re-read my post you will see that we DID have dynamic brake problems which were resolved by replacing the MU cable. Later, in Spokane, we had brake line problems when the compressor failed on the lead unit.

And as for the horn, we only had one engine at that point, having left the other two with the Seattle section.

 

[anir dendroica]

Looks like #8/28 were cancelled today, so that may force a cancellation on the Chicago end unless they can cobble together a consist. 7/27 due in today are 8 hours back again, and the next train is 7 hours behind already in Williston. Does anyone know what is causing this? Equipment problems, track conditions, freight congestion? I don't expect the train to run on time, but 8 hours behind every day seems a bit extreme.

 

[wrjensen]

How much Time does the EB on it turn? I think some of this falls to how the trains are scheduled because of lack of spares.

"Certainly not every Superliner needs work, but just last week two coaches were bad-ordered in Portland, forcing substitution of two Amfleets out of Seattle. "

Does that mean there were both Low and High level cars? That had to be fun.

 

[the_traveler]

"Certainly not every Superliner needs work, but just last week two coaches were bad-ordered in Portland, forcing substitution of two Amfleets out of Seattle. "
Does that mean there were both Low and High level cars? That had to be fun.

Did that mean they also had a spare Transition Sleeper "just lying around" also? :huh: Without it, those in the Amfleets could not get to the Diner or Lounge - and SEA-CHI is a long time to go without food!

 

[yarrow]

Looks like #8/28 were cancelled today, so that may force a cancellation on the Chicago end unless they can cobble together a consist. 7/27 due in today are 8 hours back again, and the next train is 7 hours behind already in Williston. Does anyone know what is causing this? Equipment problems, track conditions, freight congestion? I don't expect the train to run on time, but 8 hours behind every day seems a bit extreme.

i agree. maybe it's just part of our crumbling infrasturcture and maybe obama can help some but riding on the ld trains seems to me more and more of a crapshoot as to getting where you are headed without long delays or at all. i'm not sure it's "amtrak's fault", i just think as far as ld trains that amtrak doesn't have the resources and/or managment to be a real railroad

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

"Certainly not every Superliner needs work, but just last week two coaches were bad-ordered in Portland, forcing substitution of two Amfleets out of Seattle. "
Does that mean there were both Low and High level cars? That had to be fun.

Did that mean they also had a spare Transition Sleeper "just lying around" also? :huh: Without it, those in the Amfleets could not get to the Diner or Lounge - and SEA-CHI is a long time to go without food!

What train ordinarily runs Amfleets in Seattle?

 

[yarrow]

What train ordinarily runs Amfleets in Seattle?

someone said there were in seattle for a "holiday train". i have also seen them used on the cascades when the talgos were down but don't think they are always kept there for that purpose

 

[anir dendroica]

"Certainly not every Superliner needs work, but just last week two coaches were bad-ordered in Portland, forcing substitution of two Amfleets out of Seattle. "
Does that mean there were both Low and High level cars? That had to be fun.

Did that mean they also had a spare Transition Sleeper "just lying around" also? :huh: Without it, those in the Amfleets could not get to the Diner or Lounge - and SEA-CHI is a long time to go without food!

I think all 7/8 trains have transition sleepers so the crew can access the baggage car. So they just put the transition sleeper behind the Amfleets.

 

[anir dendroica]

Looks like #8/28 were cancelled today, so that may force a cancellation on the Chicago end unless they can cobble together a consist. 7/27 due in today are 8 hours back again, and the next train is 7 hours behind already in Williston. Does anyone know what is causing this? Equipment problems, track conditions, freight congestion? I don't expect the train to run on time, but 8 hours behind every day seems a bit extreme.

i agree. maybe it's just part of our crumbling infrasturcture and maybe obama can help some but riding on the ld trains seems to me more and more of a crapshoot as to getting where you are headed without long delays or at all. i'm not sure it's "amtrak's fault", i just think as far as ld trains that amtrak doesn't have the resources and/or managment to be a real railroad

True. When things go bad, the nearest Amtrak maintenance crew or spare equipment might be a thousand miles off. Hard to get around that without increasing service frequency or subsidizing the freight railroads to provide passenger service.

As for "crumbling infrastructure," I might argue that our long-distance routes are probably better-maintained now than they have ever been, with welded heavy rail, concrete ties, and talking defect detectors every 25 miles or so. The only bad track is where Amtrak leaves the well-traveled freight lines (as in ND) in order to serve more communities.

On the other hand, if delays are inevitable in the winter, maybe Amtrak should issue winter timetables with more schedule padding. Not many folks would complain about a 48-hour trip vs. a 44-hour trip, as long as the trains kept close to the schedule more often.

 

[Shawn]

This was our train with the Amfleets...it's the second and third clip of this video.

 

[had8ley]

About that equipment failure...
We lost 45 minutes in Minot with a failed headlight. Descending Marias Pass, we had dynamic brake problems, forcing the engineer to use the air brakes exclusively and to stop the train briefly in order to recharge the brakes. That was an easy fix (MU cable). likely because Amtrak is now short two engines (assuming the horn fix was easy enough) and a lounge car.

Just two observations about your problems; the MU cable has nothing to do with the train line. It conveys whatever commands the engineer delivers from the throttle, dynamic brake, headlight control and a host of other commands. The air hoses between cars and engines supply the air for the train line. If dynamics had been involved then yes, the MU cable would have come in to play. As far as the horn goes I've had a brakeman ride the second unit and blow when I told him to over the radio. I'm sure any A/C worth his salt would be willing to do so in order to get a train over the road.

P.S. A dead engine's whistle will operate if there is air in the train line. It can be deader than a door nail but the whistle will still blow.

If you re-read my post you will see that we DID have dynamic brake problems which were resolved by replacing the MU cable. Later, in Spokane, we had brake line problems when the compressor failed on the lead unit.

And as for the horn, we only had one engine at that point, having left the other two with the Seattle section.

Sorry...I mis-read your post. It sounded like when the engineer stopped to re-charge the train line he changed the MU cable while he was stopped. RR's do have rule book provisions for running without a headlight or whistle. I don't think they're suitable for running 79 mph. As far as the one engine they could have towed one dead engine for a whistle. You can cut out the brakes on the engine if they won't release to get it to a repair facility.

 

[anir dendroica]

I guess #8/28(4) wasn't canceled after all. It is now showing a departure from Shelby, MT 21 hours late. #8(5) is 8 hours back, now around Spokane. In better news, there is #7 that just left Williston, ND on time (actually 8 minutes late, but that's on time to me!).

 

[printman2000]

This was our train with the Amfleets...it's the second and third clip of this video.

Were you able to go in the Amfleets? I was just wondering if they were perhaps dead-heading back to Chicago.

 

[0100010]

I'm taking the Empire Builder today. Apparently the condition of the train is so bad that it's not even coming all the way to Portland. We have to take a bus from the train station in Portland to Spokane, WA. I just got the message from Amtrak.

Is this normal? I haven't taken Amtrak since 2005. What if I miss my connection in Chicago to the east coast? A customer representative for Amtrak said on the phone that they normally put passengers in a hotel room if they miss their Amtrak connection due to extreme lateness. Is this true? I've also read stories online of people being stranded.

 

[AlanB]

I'm taking the Empire Builder today. Apparently the condition of the train is so bad that it's not even coming all the way to Portland. We have to take a bus from the train station in Portland to Spokane, WA. I just got the message from Amtrak.
Is this normal? I haven't taken Amtrak since 2005. What if I miss my connection in Chicago to the east coast? A customer representative for Amtrak said on the phone that they normally put passengers in a hotel room if they miss their Amtrak connection due to extreme lateness. Is this true? I've also read stories online of people being stranded.

My guess is that this is the only way that Amtrak feels it can get the trains back on schedule, by stopping short at Spokanne and turning around there so as to depart on-time from there. That assumes that there isn't some weather or track issue that's forced Amtrak's hand.

It has happened in the past on a few occasions where they turned short, so as to get back on schedule. If you miss your connection, it is Amtrak's responsibility to deal with the issue. That could include busing you to catch up to the connection, putting you on another later train (assuming that there is a later one), or putting you up in a hotel for the night with a food allowance and then placing you on the next day's train.

 

[wrjensen]

This was our train with the Amfleets...it's the second and third clip of this video.

seem like a odd consist the lounge was the 2nd to the last. Long way from the Amfleet coaches.

 

[Steve4031]

Nxyfily is also on the Empire Builder that is being turned in Spokane. She is being bussed from Portland. What fun.

 

[PaulM]

Random breakdowns happen all the time, and statistical outliers are perfectly normal.

Unfortunately, the first half of your statement seems to be correct. However, the second half sounds like something from the mainstream media. In statistics, by definition a "statistical outlier" is perfectly abnormal.

The relevant question is what failure rate is acceptable. Seems there was a thread last summer discussing a change in locomotive maintenance policy; and someone said that only time and statistics would tell whether it was for better or worse.

For what it's worth, I rode the EB last July and we encountered a broken locomotive, lounge left in Portland, dining car with refrigeration problems, and no AC in the bedroom half of the Portland sleeper, all on one train.

 

[Larry H.]

More evidence that as expected Amtrak is not a professional operation. Things go wrong and no one is ready, three engines do not just break down and its a fluke! Years of shoddy care for the cars is naturally going to show even worse under severe weather conditions. I sure hope someone finally figures out how to maintain trains, provide for emergency equipment and restore consist to provide for emergency needs as railroads at one time would have done. I won't hold my breath, I will probably never see it.