Food cart cut from Hiawatha

Advertise with us
Shop deals on ebay
shop deals on amazon
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Train Rider

Service Attendant
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
150
:( Sounds like what happened to the Empire Service Trains out of NYP!!There was a really Cool LSA that Sang and Sold Snacks from Milwaukee-CHI on the Hiawathas! Hope his Seniority allows him to move to a Good Job since there are are no TAs on the Hiawathas! Maybe the Empire Builder or other Illinois/Missouri Trains!!! ;)
 
It really doesn't sound like it was needed for a 90 minute trip. The Keystone is longer than that and there is no cafe car and I don't think anyone would use it. The Wi-fi would probably be good addition.
 
Somewhere, John Mica is rubbing his hands and laughing... somewhat maniacally and evilly... ;)
 
JoeBas said:
Somewhere, John Mica is rubbing his hands and laughing... somewhat maniacally and evilly... ;)
Click to expand...
While eating a Gourmet "Subsidized" Meal in the House Dinning Room no Doubt! If not that, Grazing on a Lobbyists Tab @ one of Washington"s Plusher Bistros! (For sure he won't be eating Paula Deans Southern Grub! :giggle: )
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JoeBas said:
Somewhere, John Mica is rubbing his hands and laughing... somewhat maniacally and evilly... ;)
Click to expand...
The food cart sells BEER.....to a confined audience......in MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN.....and still needs a $230K subsidy!? Hardly something that needs to be defended.
 
jimhudson said:
:( Sounds like what happened to the Empire Service Trains out of NYP!!
Click to expand...
Right after the Turboliners were sidelined as I recall. Deja vu. Now I'm just waiting for the Wisconsin Talgos to get shipped off to Bear, DE to rot away in a hidden storage yard.
 
If Wisconsin were using its new Talgos, there would be no need to spend money trying to install WiFi into the Horizon cars that typically help cover the Hiawatha route.
 
Frankly, it makes sense to not have food service on a 90-minute ride if it's not profitable. The cart was operated by one person who only worked some of the trains, so many (most?) trains had no food service. It'd make more sense to have some sort of vending machine on the train for people to buy refreshments as wanted.

Plus, if the money saved can be used for wi-fi installations, I think that's money better spent.
 
jebr said:
Frankly, it makes sense to not have food service on a 90-minute ride if it's not profitable. The cart was operated by one person who only worked some of the trains, so many (most?) trains had no food service. It'd make more sense to have some sort of vending machine on the train for people to buy refreshments as wanted.
Plus, if the money saved can be used for wi-fi installations, I think that's money better spent.
Click to expand...
No problem with the WIFI, it's 2013! <_< But it's evident you never rode the old SP Automat Trains! Ask the folks who ride the Trains between NYP and ALB how they like not having Food and Beverage Services available! Airlines would be another example, Crappy snack Boxes Sold @ High Prices aren't the way to go!( At least on Amtrak you still can carry on your own Food and Non-Alcohol Beverages! ;) )Personally I really enjoyed having Marty put on his Show and Roll his Cart up and down the Aisles on the Hiawathas between Milwaukee and Chicago! And it works great on the VIA Corridor Trains in Canada also!
 
I believe that there were actually 2 people working the carts, so that most midday/evening weekday trains did have (well, do have, for another couple days) cart service.

I'm somewhat conflicted about whether the food cart made sense to continue or not. However, I do really wonder if there might be other train services where a similar cart service would, in fact, make sense, either to replace a café car and cut costs, or to institute food/drink service on trains that otherwise would not have it.
 
benjibear said:
It really doesn't sound like it was needed for a 90 minute trip. The Keystone is longer than that and there is no cafe car and I don't think anyone would use it. The Wi-fi would probably be good addition.
Click to expand...
Good point. The Keystone end-to-end (HAR-NYP) is over 3 hrs and doesn't have food service. Not that the lack of it

on the Keystones justifies removing it from the Hiawathas, but I'd agree with those who think this isn't really a huge loss.

The way it was set up, with only some trains having it on only some days was confusing anyhow. I highly doubt that

many people actually planned on making a purchase, unlike diners or even cafe cars where many people board with

the intent of getting something to eat en route. The Hiawatha carts were probably about 95% impulse purchases, and

those can certainly be wildly uneven in terms of expected revenue.
 
jimhudson said:
Crappy snack Boxes Sold @ High Prices aren't the way to go!( At least on Amtrak you still can carry on your own Food and Non-Alcohol Beverages! ;) )
Click to expand...
So like the snack boxes sold on the Hiawatha?

Deli Break Snack Box . . . . . .$6.00
Cheese & Cracker Tray . . . . .$3.75

Granted, there are still more options than just those, but there's really nothing other than snacks on the Hiawatha, which I would presume some sort of vending machine could do for a cheaper cost without losing quality of the food. (Plus, Amtrak differs from most airlines in charging for soft drinks - every airline I've flown on provides soft drinks for free, albeit in a small cup.)

I've never seen Marty in action, but I've heard the stories and hope he moves to another train (or maybe even in a training position.) However, this is one of those areas where it's not all that vital to the train's survival or comfort (after all, if it was vital, they'd have it on every train,) it's losing $200k a year that can be better invested elsewhere, and it may even be easy to replace with a couple vending machines on each train.
 
jimhudson said:
Ask the folks who ride the Trains between NYP and ALB how they like not having Food and Beverage Services available!
Click to expand...
NYP-Albany: 2 hours 30 minutes

CHI-Milwaukee: 1 hour 29 minutes

The Hiawatha is one of the few Amtrak services which is actually so short that food sales are not going to be very effective. It's shorter than a lot of commuter train runs. It would probably be part of Metra if Milwaukee were in Illinois.
 
How on Earth could they spend that much money on a SNACK CART??? The trolley is probably $10K at the MOST and something is very wrong if there are TWO people being paid $115K per year to ride a train for 90 minutes MAYBE twice per day. That would mean that they are actually charging less for the food then they are taking in. Since that's unlikely, I find it equally difficult to believe that NONE of the proceeds from the sales cover the cost of the employees.

I'm no accountant, but I didn't fail Algebra, either.

Does anyone have any idea what sort of revenue or loss is being generated by the vending machines on the Peidmonts?

As the Shinkansen got faster between Tokyo and Osaka, they eventually got rid of the dining car. Really not enough time to sit and enjoy a nice meal. I would argue that the local version of the Shinkansen could still benefit from a Diner, but that's just the nostalgia in me (the Kodama still takes almost 4 hours to make the journey). But trolley service (when accompanied by a very sweet, polite, well kempt hostess) has always been and still is a staple on these 16-car, 1,200 passenger trains.
 
Venture,

The issue is that you missing a lot of the expenses. First, it's not 2 employees. There has to be at least 3, since you need to cover sick days & vacations. Then it's not just salaries, you have benefits too. And when you say "the trolley" are you talking about the cost of the food? Or are you talking about the cost of the cart?

Finally, its my understanding that the employees are based out of Chicago, so that means that Amtrak has to pay a hotel to overnight one in MKE, and pay for dinner & breakfast for one employee. And I many still be missing a few things in my list too. So this isn't quite as simple as 1, 2, & 3.
 
Train Rider said:
JoeBas said:
Somewhere, John Mica is rubbing his hands and laughing... somewhat maniacally and evilly... ;)
Click to expand...
The food cart sells BEER.....to a confined audience......in MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN.....and still needs a $230K subsidy!? Hardly something that needs to be defended.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with this guy. That's ridiculous. If there is any demand then let some private vendor fill the need. Amtrak pissing away 230k on a food cart is just a waste.
 
AlanB said:
Venture,
The issue is that you missing a lot of the expenses. First, it's not 2 employees. There has to be at least 3, since you need to cover sick days & vacations. Then it's not just salaries, you have benefits too. And when you say "the trolley" are you talking about the cost of the food? Or are you talking about the cost of the cart?

Finally, its my understanding that the employees are based out of Chicago, so that means that Amtrak has to pay a hotel to overnight one in MKE, and pay for dinner & breakfast for one employee. And I many still be missing a few things in my list too. So this isn't quite as simple as 1, 2, & 3.
Click to expand...
The trolley is the term I am familar with referring to the cart that the food is stashed away in.

Vending machines. Don't have to feed them, pay them benefits, don't have to put them up in a hotel every night and someone who is already employeed can stock them & collect revenue. Often times, the cost of the vending service includes that. They worry about supply and just write a check, splitting the profits between them and the carrier.

What do we want to do? Employee people, keeping the prices up and burdening taxpayers, or do we want to actually try to reduce our costs and keep Amtrak around a little while longer?

Seriously - this is an hour and a half run. People can do without snacks for an hour and a half. And, following the Japanese model, I would almost even suggest cutting all food service on all day runs - including the Acela. Put trolley cart service on trains with runs that exceed 3 hours and not over night, and ELIMINATE the cafe/diners on these routes.

Hey - the Shinkansen offers first class service and they still have to pay for food from the trolley cart. Of course, if Amtrak does that, they may lose more politicians that ride the rails...
 
Ironically, I've met some Milwaukee-area train passengers who have remarked about this, and then turned around and stated that "No one would ride a train to Madison! (but we like the food cart on board *our* trains)" :angry: :blink:
 
I tend to agree that vending machines might not be a bad idea on some shorter routes. They might make sense on some longer commuter runs as well (the NYC commuter lines have some candidates), and I'd argue they might also make sense in cases where the "walk" to the cafe gets over about 5-6 cars.

As to SP...well, there were two issues there:
(1) As I understand it, SP didn't even bother to keep the machines running; and

(2) SP used automats as a substitute for actual dining cars, not for limited beverage and unheated snack service.

The automats were not an inherently bad idea. SP maliciously misapplied them.
 
Anderson said:
I tend to agree that vending machines might not be a bad idea on some shorter routes. They might make sense on some longer commuter runs as well (the NYC commuter lines have some candidates), and I'd argue they might also make sense in cases where the "walk" to the cafe gets over about 5-6 cars.
As to SP...well, there were two issues there:

(1) As I understand it, SP didn't even bother to keep the machines running; and

(2) SP used automats as a substitute for actual dining cars, not for limited beverage and unheated snack service.

The automats were not an inherently bad idea. SP maliciously misapplied them.
Click to expand...
Espee implemented Automat vending machine cars on all trains in the mid 1960s including the Sunset Limited, the Cascade and the Coast Daylight. The Coast Daylight even included a teardrop end Parlor Car on certain days and a Dome Lounge that sold snacks and beverages. The selection of the Vending machines was something like what a hospital would have in their vending machines. Also ironically, Espee had a couple of the former Dining Car waiters in the Automat to assist you in heating your selection in the microwave and of course they were expecting a tip. Vending machines now tend to have better selections anywhere than they did back in the 1960s so they might work better on short distance trains. I traveled on the Coast Daylight in the summer of 1970 via Parlor Car Oceanside from Los Angeles. It was a very crowded train. They offered cocktails at your parlor seat or you could enjoy them in the Dome Lounge, but what a disappointment to have to have lunch in the very crowded Automat car with very unappetising options. Espee even had an "extra fare" for first class travel. What a joke!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top