how often does Amtrak call the cops to remove people?

[Guest]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

 

[BCL]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

Doesn't the conductor supposedly have the last say on booting someone from a train? The conductor could theoretically delay the train until the passenger voluntarily gets off (or other passengers offer to remove the passenger). Maybe call in Amtrak Police, although whether or not there's an officer available is another issue.

I'm pretty sure if there was a single-person issue at NYP, they wouldn't even bother calling up the local cops.

 

[EMDF9A]

I can speak a little about the incident of the woman and the cell phone in the initial posting. I was one of the Trails & Rails volunteers who got on in PDX that afternoon. Number 14 arrived about 40 minutes late into PDX that afternoon and the incoming conductor was one of my favorites (he always does the announcements for us leaving PDX when he works that section, and really plugs the T&R folks) He got off the train and was heading into the station and I said Hi, and just made an off hand remark about "what was the delay today?"

He then relayed to me what had happened. The woman in question was seated in the lower level of the coach and had indeed talked almost non-stop from Oakland (per the account of the coach attendant and several passengers). One of the other passengers was a woman with her young developmentally disabled daughter. The woman on the phone was very loud and used quite a bit of profanity. The mother politely asked the woman to please watch her language and to not talk so loudly. The woman took offense to this and threatened the mother and her daughter. The mother notified the car attendant who called the conductor. When the conductor spoke with the woman, she did not deny it and dropped the "F-Bomb" on the conductor.

SO, very shortly #14 made an unscheduled stop at a grade crossing where Salem's Finest met the train and escorted the woman off. As it turns out this woman had outstanding warrants and remained a guest of the county for a while before getting a trip back to Oakland (but not on the CS)

This conductor is one of the nicest folks to ride the rails in these parts, and is slow to anger. I am sure this was done with a great deal of thought for the safety of his passengers.

On a humorous note, this same conductor now in his opening remarks when he joins a train says "Remember, Amtrak policy states that a disruptive or unruly passenger can be removed from the train at any inhabited location. It doesn't say inhabited by Humans"

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

This conductor is one of the nicest folks to ride the rails in these parts, and is slow to anger. I am sure this was done with a great deal of thought for the safety of his passengers.

On a humorous note, this same conductor now in his opening remarks when he joins a train says "Remember, Amtrak policy states that a disruptive or unruly passenger can be removed from the train at any inhabited location. It doesn't say inhabited by Humans"

I have ridden with that Conductor and when he gave that announcement right after saying not inhabited by humans he added it may be Dick Cheney at that stop. Almost in unison most of us in the PPC jokingly hissed and booed loudly and gave the Conductor a good teasing when he wandered through.

 

[Ocala Mike]

A few years back, a rowdy group of S. Florida thugs took exception to the fact that the cafe car was shutting down in the wee hours somewhere in NC on a S/B Silver Meteor. A group of the Tarheel State's finest boarded the train and escorted them off. For all I know, they're still in the pokey there.

 

[Braniff747SP]

I can speak a little about the incident of the woman and the cell phone in the initial posting. I was one of the Trails & Rails volunteers who got on in PDX that afternoon. Number 14 arrived about 40 minutes late into PDX that afternoon and the incoming conductor was one of my favorites (he always does the announcements for us leaving PDX when he works that section, and really plugs the T&R folks) He got off the train and was heading into the station and I said Hi, and just made an off hand remark about "what was the delay today?"
He then relayed to me what had happened. The woman in question was seated in the lower level of the coach and had indeed talked almost non-stop from Oakland (per the account of the coach attendant and several passengers). One of the other passengers was a woman with her young developmentally disabled daughter. The woman on the phone was very loud and used quite a bit of profanity. The mother politely asked the woman to please watch her language and to not talk so loudly. The woman took offense to this and threatened the mother and her daughter. The mother notified the car attendant who called the conductor. When the conductor spoke with the woman, she did not deny it and dropped the "F-Bomb" on the conductor.

SO, very shortly #14 made an unscheduled stop at a grade crossing where Salem's Finest met the train and escorted the woman off. As it turns out this woman had outstanding warrants and remained a guest of the county for a while before getting a trip back to Oakland (but not on the CS)

This conductor is one of the nicest folks to ride the rails in these parts, and is slow to anger. I am sure this was done with a great deal of thought for the safety of his passengers.

On a humorous note, this same conductor now in his opening remarks when he joins a train says "Remember, Amtrak policy states that a disruptive or unruly passenger can be removed from the train at any inhabited location. It doesn't say inhabited by Humans"

This conductor is one of the nicest folks to ride the rails in these parts, and is slow to anger. I am sure this was done with a great deal of thought for the safety of his passengers.

On a humorous note, this same conductor now in his opening remarks when he joins a train says "Remember, Amtrak policy states that a disruptive or unruly passenger can be removed from the train at any inhabited location. It doesn't say inhabited by Humans"

I have ridden with that Conductor and when he gave that announcement right after saying not inhabited by humans he added it may be Dick Cheney at that stop. Almost in unison most of us in the PPC jokingly hissed and booed loudly and gave the Conductor a good teasing when he wandered through.

I've had this guy too; a couple of times, in fact. Both times made a crack about some inane law that he found out about ''on the internet, so it must be true.'' Also said that the uninhabited place may be inhabited by Republicans... First time I rode with him was with the Boy Scouts, going to a camp in Oregon. Nice ride.

 

[AlanB]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

I'm actually surprised that there wasn't an Amtrak cop there, usually there is at least 1 Amtrak office in the Wilmington station. That said, the Wilmington cops were wrong to refuse to remove the person from the train. Once they boarded the train, they needed to comply with the conductors request. Doesn't matter if they thought the conductor right or wrong.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Back in December of 2011, me and two other people witnessed a woman escorted off of train 98 at Winter Park. It looked like she resisted and got into a small altercation with the staff onboard the train. The three of us could tell she was drunk and she asked the gentlemen I was with for a cigarette, which ironically is the very thing that got her kicked off the train in the first place. The station staff at Winter Park printed her another ticket for her to go back home. Luckily for her 91 was running six hours late that day. No cops were involved in this incident either, surprisingly.

 

[Tumbleweed]

We had a no-nonsense Conductor on the Northbound SM a few years ago....a person who insisted on wearing his trousers well below his beltline was asked to improve his appearance to other passengers....he laughed it off, and the conductor gave him three choices...

1. Pull the trousers up so I cannot see your butt-crack.

2. Pull your shirt down so I cannot see your butt-crack.

3. Get off the train.

We made an unscheduled stop to let him off....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

I'm actually surprised that there wasn't an Amtrak cop there, usually there is at least 1 Amtrak office in the Wilmington station. That said, the Wilmington cops were wrong to refuse to remove the person from the train. Once they boarded the train, they needed to comply with the conductors request. Doesn't matter if they thought the conductor right or wrong.

Sounds like it must have been a rather absurd situation for the cops themselves to insist on turning down an opportunity to arrest. Too bad the law is apparently written in a way that even refusing potentially absurd demands can itself be considered illegal. I eventually stopped talking to conductors once I realized how much power they had over everyone else. It seems like all it could take is one misunderstanding, one wrong word in the wrong place, and you might be risking some serious consequences. Not much I could do about it arguing with the tumbleweeds while the train heads off into the distance.

 

[PRR 60]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

I'm actually surprised that there wasn't an Amtrak cop there, usually there is at least 1 Amtrak office in the Wilmington station. That said, the Wilmington cops were wrong to refuse to remove the person from the train. Once they boarded the train, they needed to comply with the conductors request. Doesn't matter if they thought the conductor right or wrong.

Sounds like it must have been a rather absurd situation for the cops themselves to insist on turning down an opportunity to arrest. Too bad the law is apparently written in a way that even refusing absurd demands can itself be considered illegal. I wonder how a potentially corrupt conductor is supposed to be handled the "right" way.

I'm not sure there is a law that makes disobeying the instructions of the train crew illegal. There is for not following the instructions of flight crews, but that law specifically written only for flight crews.

I suspect that the Wilmington Police did not want to be on board rule enforcers for Amtrak. They certainly do not have to act simply on the whims of an Amtrak conductor and have no obligation to take anyone into custody just because an Amtrak conductor has an issue with someone.

 

[SouthernServesTheSouth]

The conductor must be ignorant of the A.D.A. laws. Maybe the police saw a possible lawsuit in the making.

 

[Ryan]

What exactly does the ADA have to do with it?

 

[BCL]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

I'm actually surprised that there wasn't an Amtrak cop there, usually there is at least 1 Amtrak office in the Wilmington station. That said, the Wilmington cops were wrong to refuse to remove the person from the train. Once they boarded the train, they needed to comply with the conductors request. Doesn't matter if they thought the conductor right or wrong.

Sounds like it must have been a rather absurd situation for the cops themselves to insist on turning down an opportunity to arrest. Too bad the law is apparently written in a way that even refusing potentially absurd demands can itself be considered illegal. I eventually stopped talking to conductors once I realized how much power they had over everyone else. It seems like all it could take is one misunderstanding, one wrong word in the wrong place, and you might be risking some serious consequences. Not much I could do about it arguing with the tumbleweeds while the train heads off into the distance.

I don't think it would necessarily be an arrest opportunity. The conductor is like the manager of a bar or club who has the authority to order people out and might call on a bouncer to do so without having anyone charged with a crime. Sounds like Wilmington PD just didn't want to be the bouncer.

 

[Anderson]

I saw an aborted boot-off on NER in Wilmington about a year ago. A conductor with a power trip tried to have a guy in a leg cast removed from the train for stretching his leg across the adjacent seat. As soon as the seat was needed, he moved it on his own accord and had a lady sitting next to him. The Wilmington PD was called anyway, but they declined to do anything in the matter. One of the most unhappy conductors I've ever seen on Amtrak.

I'm actually surprised that there wasn't an Amtrak cop there, usually there is at least 1 Amtrak office in the Wilmington station. That said, the Wilmington cops were wrong to refuse to remove the person from the train. Once they boarded the train, they needed to comply with the conductors request. Doesn't matter if they thought the conductor right or wrong.

Sounds like it must have been a rather absurd situation for the cops themselves to insist on turning down an opportunity to arrest. Too bad the law is apparently written in a way that even refusing potentially absurd demands can itself be considered illegal. I eventually stopped talking to conductors once I realized how much power they had over everyone else. It seems like all it could take is one misunderstanding, one wrong word in the wrong place, and you might be risking some serious consequences. Not much I could do about it arguing with the tumbleweeds while the train heads off into the distance.

I don't think it would necessarily be an arrest opportunity. The conductor is like the manager of a bar or club who has the authority to order people out and might call on a bouncer to do so without having anyone charged with a crime. Sounds like Wilmington PD just didn't want to be the bouncer.

From the phrasing, it sounds like the Wilmington PD might well have met the conductor somewhere not on the train (i.e. on the platform). If he let it slip those details, it sounds like the police might either (A) have told him they would not board the train; or (B) told him that if they did take the person off and there was an ADA complaint, in essence they'd be witnesses for the plaintiff.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I doubt a leg cast would involve ADA. I think the PD probably thought the conductor was being unreasonable since the guy with the cast did give the seat up when the train was full. Probably quicker than seat hogs w/bags, etc on the seats.

 

[Everydaymatters]

I agree with Betty. There's the letter of the law and there's the spirit of the law. It's hard to believe a conductor would be this unreasonable, unless there's more to the story.....

Normal (Illinois) Betty

 

[MiRider]

Sounds like the 'leg cast' conductor was being a jerk, imo.

I also know for a fact that short term impairments can be considered disabilities under ADA.

Someone in a leg cast is definitely disabled, albeit temporarily, when comparing their limitations to the general population.

I imagine that they would be covered under the ADA amendment (2011).

On one of my TE trips there was a guy in a cast and he needed both seats, there's no way his giant cast would have fit in front of him.

He really should have been in the lower level but maybe it was full, I didn't check.

He was a big guy too, he probably would have wound up in the SSL if the train was sold out.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Sounds like the leg cast would qualify the passenger as at least temporarily disabled. Since the guy moved his leg when someone needed a seat, the conductor was basically just being a jerk and cops decided they didn't want anything to do with this incident.

 

[fillyjonk]

Sounds like the 'leg cast' conductor was being a jerk, imo.
I also know for a fact that short term impairments can be considered disabilities under ADA.

Someone in a leg cast is definitely disabled, albeit temporarily, when comparing their limitations to the general population.

I imagine that they would be covered under the ADA amendment (2011).

On one of my TE trips there was a guy in a cast and he needed both seats, there's no way his giant cast would have fit in front of him.

He really should have been in the lower level but maybe it was full, I didn't check.

He was a big guy too, he probably would have wound up in the SSL if the train was sold out.

I'm a college prof so I deal with ADA accommodations on a semi-regular basis. You are correct; being in a cast is considered a short-term disability and would, for example, entitle a student to a short-term "disabled" placard for parking spaces, etc. Some of the same protections that someone with a permanent disability would get.

I can see the cops not wanting to intervene and realizing, as someone else said, that they'd be a witness for the plaintiff if the guy in the cast lodged an ADA complaint.

It seems really kind of...jerky?....for someone to complain at a person in a cast. There's not a heck of a lot the person can DO.

My father is semi-disabled (had knee replacement surgery that didn't work out so well) and it's very hard for him to climb stairs. He's traveled Amtrak a few times since the surgery and mostly the conductors or car attendants have been helpful, except at one unmanned station in the East (Harper's Ferry, maybe?) where there was no notification of which track the train was coming in on, and it was very hard for him to get TO the train when it arrived (they had to go down stairs, and through a tunnel, and back up stairs.....)

I think part of the problem is people sometimes don't THINK (I know, I have become more conscious of the needs of people with mobility limitations lately), and there's that 5% or so of the population who just act like jerks, and some of that 5% winds up working for Amtrak....

 

[Ryan]

I understand that the ADA applies to people with short term disabilities.

But, since the dude willingly moved his leg when someone wanted to sit there, it doesn't appear that him taking up two seats was an accommodation that Amtrak was required to make for him.

The fact that you're disabled (short term or otherwise) doesn't give you carte blanche to just ignore whatever rules you feel like.

 

[Eric308]

I understand that the ADA applies to people with short term disabilities.
But, since the dude willingly moved his leg when someone wanted to sit there, it doesn't appear that him taking up two seats was an accommodation that Amtrak was required to make for him.

The fact that you're disabled (short term or otherwise) doesn't give you carte blanche to just ignore whatever rules you feel like.

Is there a discount for disabled Vets? I'm 60% disabled Vietnam era and haven't looked into it. I have an artificial knee and I'm now recovering from a ruptured quadriceps tendon on the other leg. However, I'm not that limited and can do stairs albeit carefully.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I understand that the ADA applies to people with short term disabilities.
But, since the dude willingly moved his leg when someone wanted to sit there, it doesn't appear that him taking up two seats was an accommodation that Amtrak was required to make for him.

The fact that you're disabled (short term or otherwise) doesn't give you carte blanche to just ignore whatever rules you feel like.

Is there a discount for disabled Vets? I'm 60% disabled Vietnam era and haven't looked into it. I have an artificial knee and I'm now recovering from a ruptured quadriceps tendon on the other leg. However, I'm not that limited and can do stairs albeit carefully.

If you can provide documentation for your disability, you can get a 15% discount on rail fare (not on rooms). I haven't been asked for documentation yet but I carry it with me because you never know. I imagine if you buy at a ticket window, you'll need to show it.

 

[Eric308]

I understand that the ADA applies to people with short term disabilities.
But, since the dude willingly moved his leg when someone wanted to sit there, it doesn't appear that him taking up two seats was an accommodation that Amtrak was required to make for him.

The fact that you're disabled (short term or otherwise) doesn't give you carte blanche to just ignore whatever rules you feel like.

Is there a discount for disabled Vets? I'm 60% disabled Vietnam era and haven't looked into it. I have an artificial knee and I'm now recovering from a ruptured quadriceps tendon on the other leg. However, I'm not that limited and can do stairs albeit carefully.

If you can provide documentation for your disability, you can get a 15% discount on rail fare (not on rooms). I haven't been asked for documentation yet but I carry it with me because you never know. I imagine if you buy at a ticket window, you'll need to show it.

Thanks, Blue. I have a VA ID card with photo and a notation of my service connected disability. I gather you cannot combine that with other discounts, right?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I understand that the ADA applies to people with short term disabilities.

But, since the dude willingly moved his leg when someone wanted to sit there, it doesn't appear that him taking up two seats was an accommodation that Amtrak was required to make for him.

The fact that you're disabled (short term or otherwise) doesn't give you carte blanche to just ignore whatever rules you feel like.

Is there a discount for disabled Vets? I'm 60% disabled Vietnam era and haven't looked into it. I have an artificial knee and I'm now recovering from a ruptured quadriceps tendon on the other leg. However, I'm not that limited and can do stairs albeit carefully.

If you can provide documentation for your disability, you can get a 15% discount on rail fare (not on rooms). I haven't been asked for documentation yet but I carry it with me because you never know. I imagine if you buy at a ticket window, you'll need to show it.

Thanks, Blue. I have a VA ID card with photo and a notation of my service connected disability. I gather you cannot combine that with other discounts, right?

Correct. I live on the NEC and usually buy my tickets at the 25% 14+ days advance purchase price, so usually don't use the discount.

When you book you need to use the link for "Persons with disabilities" (or what ever it says) on the main page under the area where you fill in the From/To/Date. You will be asked general questions regarding your disability (use a wheelchair, need assitance, etc). If you want to shop for prices first, then use the regular way first as prices are not displayed when using the disability pages until you're ready to "check out".