HAHA, hey times are hard. While we are broke, Europe's weakest links are dragging the EU down so they are 'broker' than we are if only by a little bit. Maybe it's just grasping straws but the Europeans love to scoreboard the Americans every chance they get.
How would you name Amtrak's route differently?
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Exiled in Express
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Empire Service and Empire Builder have tripped me up when clicking too quickly on schedules and the weekly fare specials list. I am biased toward my home train so sorry New York, enjoy the new Buffalo Flyer and Hudson Zephyr services. :giggle:
I would like to see the train names come back in the midwest, Ann Rutledge and the Mules - not just a great band name! Some hybrid would have to be done though, Missouri Service does better describe where the train goes.
I would like to see the train names come back in the midwest, Ann Rutledge and the Mules - not just a great band name! Some hybrid would have to be done though, Missouri Service does better describe where the train goes.
NY Penn
OBS Chief
Except New York is called the Empire State, so it deserves the Empire service just like Michigan and the Wolverine Service.
Sorry, Chicago/Seattle/Portland/Twin Cities/other middle-of-nowhere where the EB goes through (
), your train should get a new name. North Coast Express, anyone?
Sorry, Chicago/Seattle/Portland/Twin Cities/other middle-of-nowhere where the EB goes through (
jis
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The whole problem apparently is a cooked up one. The clear solution is for people to be more careful while they merrily click through web pages 
As for names, Corridor trains are not likely to get individual names. It is just confusing for everyone except the railfans.
As for names, Corridor trains are not likely to get individual names. It is just confusing for everyone except the railfans.
Some may wander why the silver trains were so named. That is because the railroads were discovering stainless steel at the time they were planning a new train. They found it to be lightweight, high strength and had little or no corrosion.
The Silver Meteor, put in service in 1939,by Seaboard was among our nation's first Stainless steel streamliners.
The Silver Star and the Silver Comet (NYC to Atlanta and Birmingham) followed suit in 1947. The Silver Comet was discontinued in 1969
Yesterday's novelty became today's norm.
Of course by the time Amtrak named a train the Silver Palm the whole discussion was out of date, no longer the big deal it was in the world of 1939.
NOTE: Some railroads painted their stainless steel equipment but probably most did like Seaboard and left it in its natural silver.
The Silver Meteor, put in service in 1939,by Seaboard was among our nation's first Stainless steel streamliners.
The Silver Star and the Silver Comet (NYC to Atlanta and Birmingham) followed suit in 1947. The Silver Comet was discontinued in 1969
Yesterday's novelty became today's norm.
Of course by the time Amtrak named a train the Silver Palm the whole discussion was out of date, no longer the big deal it was in the world of 1939.
NOTE: Some railroads painted their stainless steel equipment but probably most did like Seaboard and left it in its natural silver.
daveyb99
OBS Chief
uh, you pay much much more in taxes for air travel than you do on AMTRAK.
I'm going to come down somewhere in the middle here. On the one hand, I believe that a bunch of trains serving a similar route should bear the same "brand name" (I think VIA screwed up in not doing a bit of branding, even on the Corridor there let alone elsewhere in the system). On the other hand, if service is substantially different on one train on a corridor versus the others (a lot of stops are skipped, a lot of stops are added, the train only covers one end of the route or covers an extended route, the service is substantially different, etc.), a different name should be used. Two examples of what I'm talking about:I agree. There should be a single name for a corridor train service. A series of different names may have worked back in the day when people were knowledgeable about train travel and schedules and knew what the different names meant. They also knew their railroads and who ran what. In this day and age, using different names for corridor trains traveling the same route will confuse some customers. Northeast Regional or the Acela tell people traveling on the NEC what they are getting.I respectfully disagree. Naming all the trains on one service -- City A to City Z making stops B, C, D, etc. inbetween -- with a single name is more useful to the traveling public. It helps people think of the trains as a single service with the various frequencies reinforcing each other. "If I miss the 7am Lincoln Service, I can catch the 9:25 am Lincoln Service." Stated another way, a traveler needs to know that the Empire Builder is not a Hiawatha, the Texas Eagle is not a Lincoln Service train, and the Coast Starlight is not just another Pacific Surfliner, but what does a traveler gain from knowing that the 7am train from CHI to SPI is the Ann Rutledge but the 9:25am train between the same cities is the State House?
IIRC, there's only two places on Amtrak where trains of the same corridor service making the same stops have different names: the Carl Sandburg/Illinois Zephyr and the Illini/Saluki. IMHO, the State of Illinois (which pays Amtrak to operate those trains) needs to decide on one train name for each of these services and stick with it for all the trains on that service.
That said, I believe that the long-distance trains should be individually named -- the two Silver Service trains already have different names, and if any other long-distance route ever has two or more trains a day, each one should have its own name. I also would have no problem reusing the Twilight Limited or Lake Cities names for new routes or services.
If Illinois adds an additional frequency to the Carl Sandburg/IL Zephyr or Illini/Saluki routes, they should go to a single name for the corridor service.
-Split the "Empire Service" branding slightly (perhaps resurrecting the "Empire State Express") for trains that do/don't terminate at Albany.
-Resurrect a different name for the overnight 66/67 on the NEC (Twilight Shoreliner/Nite Owl/something else).
In both cases, there's a reason to split the name (the trains that cut at Albany obviously don't serve the rest of the state; the overnight train is slightly different from other NEC services in that it runs overnight and, at some point, may reacquire its sleeper). The same would be true of an "upgraded" train running on a corridor (or a "no frills" train running without a cafe car or BC).
I would have to go home and look up my old PRR/New Haven timetables, but back in the pre-Amtrak days on the NEC, the trains were named, but they were also sort of branded by service:I'm going to come down somewhere in the middle here. On the one hand, I believe that a bunch of trains serving a similar route should bear the same "brand name" (I think VIA screwed up in not doing a bit of branding, even on the Corridor there let alone elsewhere in the system). On the other hand, if service is substantially different on one train on a corridor versus the others (a lot of stops are skipped, a lot of stops are added, the train only covers one end of the route or covers an extended route, the service is substantially different, etc.), a different name should be used. Two examples of what I'm talking about:I agree. There should be a single name for a corridor train service. A series of different names may have worked back in the day when people were knowledgeable about train travel and schedules and knew what the different names meant. They also knew their railroads and who ran what. In this day and age, using different names for corridor trains traveling the same route will confuse some customers. Northeast Regional or the Acela tell people traveling on the NEC what they are getting.I respectfully disagree. Naming all the trains on one service -- City A to City Z making stops B, C, D, etc. inbetween -- with a single name is more useful to the traveling public. It helps people think of the trains as a single service with the various frequencies reinforcing each other. "If I miss the 7am Lincoln Service, I can catch the 9:25 am Lincoln Service." Stated another way, a traveler needs to know that the Empire Builder is not a Hiawatha, the Texas Eagle is not a Lincoln Service train, and the Coast Starlight is not just another Pacific Surfliner, but what does a traveler gain from knowing that the 7am train from CHI to SPI is the Ann Rutledge but the 9:25am train between the same cities is the State House?
IIRC, there's only two places on Amtrak where trains of the same corridor service making the same stops have different names: the Carl Sandburg/Illinois Zephyr and the Illini/Saluki. IMHO, the State of Illinois (which pays Amtrak to operate those trains) needs to decide on one train name for each of these services and stick with it for all the trains on that service.
That said, I believe that the long-distance trains should be individually named -- the two Silver Service trains already have different names, and if any other long-distance route ever has two or more trains a day, each one should have its own name. I also would have no problem reusing the Twilight Limited or Lake Cities names for new routes or services.
If Illinois adds an additional frequency to the Carl Sandburg/IL Zephyr or Illini/Saluki routes, they should go to a single name for the corridor service.
-Split the "Empire Service" branding slightly (perhaps resurrecting the "Empire State Express") for trains that do/don't terminate at Albany.
-Resurrect a different name for the overnight 66/67 on the NEC (Twilight Shoreliner/Nite Owl/something else).
In both cases, there's a reason to split the name (the trains that cut at Albany obviously don't serve the rest of the state; the overnight train is slightly different from other NEC services in that it runs overnight and, at some point, may reacquire its sleeper). The same would be true of an "upgraded" train running on a corridor (or a "no frills" train running without a cafe car or BC).
There were the Congressionals, Morning, Mid-day, and evening running between NY and Washington
There were the Clockers that ran between New York and Philadelphia
The trains that rain all the way from Washington to Boston had a variety of names, like Patriot, Senator, Federal, etc.
There were a couple of NY-DC trains that had their own names, like the Keystone, because they had distinctive equipment.
Some of the named through trains to the south and west would carry passengers between NEC points. Even in early Amtrak years, as they once sold me a ticket on the Silver Meteor between Baltimore and New York, and I solso remeber riding the "Southern Crescent" (this was in 1972) between New York and Philadelphia.
I don't recall that the traveling public really cared back then, either, as all the coach seats were sold unreserved. People just went to the station and bought a ticket, they really didn't care which train they rode on, except for the schedule.
PacificStarlight
Train Attendant
Nah, i live in washington so I would think more the the Columbia Limited, or sagebrush limited.Except New York is called the Empire State, so it deserves the Empire service just like Michigan and the Wolverine Service.
Sorry, Chicago/Seattle/Portland/Twin Cities/other middle-of-nowhere where the EB goes through (), your train should get a new name. North Coast Express, anyone?
And also, my dad works for the airlines and they can't barely afford to pay their employees! *cough* American,
i wonder what happens to all that tax money!
I love the name of the California Zephyr and I realize the historical significance but the route is famous for one thing; mountains. Also, California is a small portion of the trip and I don't even know what a zephyr is (without cheating with google just now). The word is never used outside of train names. The Mountaineer, Mountain Express, Moffatt Road, The Great Divide, I don't know, something having to do with mountains or high elevations.So i was thinking. If you were in-charge of renaming Amtrak's routes, what would you rename them? For example, I would rename the Coast Starlight to the Pacific Starlight, like my username.
Or the Coast StarLATE
frugalist
Lead Service Attendant
Or, today's science fiction becomes tomorrow's norm --
The future of interstellar travel: The Silver Wormhole. Of course it will be subject to regular delays when pulled onto sidings to allow interstellar freighters to pass. After all, the wormholes will be run by the freight lines.
In the case of the Empire service trains, there is an argument to be made to have different names for the trains that only run NYP-ALB from those that run NYP-NFL (Niagara Falls, not the football league for those not up on their station codes). Big difference in the number of miles and extent of route covered. "Empire State Express" sounds like a train with limited stops, not one covering the length of the upper state. "Empire Upper State"? Not very catchy though. Or keep Empire Service for the NYP-NFL trains and come up with a different name for the NYP-ALB shorter corridor trains.
As for the overnight 66/67, they are different from the regular NE Regionals. A lot slower WAS-BOS / BOS-WAS for one thing with long layovers at WAS and NYP. And they have checked baggage, but otherwise equipped the same as a standard NE Regional. If a sleeper car is ever reintroduced to 66/67, then restoring the names could make sense to would help market the service.
NY Penn
OBS Chief
IMHO the names should be kept the same: it would be better for the passenger to find out upon booking that the train only goes to ALB then if the passenger wants to go to, say, ALB and does not realize that the other type of train goes there as well. The second passenger might just give up, decide not to wait all day for the next train, and drive or take a bus.
But they already have different alternate named trains they can take between NYP and ALB - the Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Ethan Allen. (And the Lake Shore Limited northbound if they buy a ticket to Schenectady and get off in Albany.)
NY Penn
OBS Chief
Gee,thanks for the memories.I would have to go home and look up my old PRR/New Haven timetables, but back in the pre-Amtrak days on the NEC, the trains were named, but they were also sort of branded by service:I'm going to come down somewhere in the middle here. On the one hand, I believe that a bunch of trains serving a similar route should bear the same "brand name" (I think VIA screwed up in not doing a bit of branding, even on the Corridor there let alone elsewhere in the system). On the other hand, if service is substantially different on one train on a corridor versus the others (a lot of stops are skipped, a lot of stops are added, the train only covers one end of the route or covers an extended route, the service is substantially different, etc.), a different name should be used. Two examples of what I'm talking about:I agree. There should be a single name for a corridor train service. A series of different names may have worked back in the day when people were knowledgeable about train travel and schedules and knew what the different names meant. They also knew their railroads and who ran what. In this day and age, using different names for corridor trains traveling the same route will confuse some customers. Northeast Regional or the Acela tell people traveling on the NEC what they are getting.I respectfully disagree. Naming all the trains on one service -- City A to City Z making stops B, C, D, etc. inbetween -- with a single name is more useful to the traveling public. It helps people think of the trains as a single service with the various frequencies reinforcing each other. "If I miss the 7am Lincoln Service, I can catch the 9:25 am Lincoln Service." Stated another way, a traveler needs to know that the Empire Builder is not a Hiawatha, the Texas Eagle is not a Lincoln Service train, and the Coast Starlight is not just another Pacific Surfliner, but what does a traveler gain from knowing that the 7am train from CHI to SPI is the Ann Rutledge but the 9:25am train between the same cities is the State House?
IIRC, there's only two places on Amtrak where trains of the same corridor service making the same stops have different names: the Carl Sandburg/Illinois Zephyr and the Illini/Saluki. IMHO, the State of Illinois (which pays Amtrak to operate those trains) needs to decide on one train name for each of these services and stick with it for all the trains on that service.
That said, I believe that the long-distance trains should be individually named -- the two Silver Service trains already have different names, and if any other long-distance route ever has two or more trains a day, each one should have its own name. I also would have no problem reusing the Twilight Limited or Lake Cities names for new routes or services.
If Illinois adds an additional frequency to the Carl Sandburg/IL Zephyr or Illini/Saluki routes, they should go to a single name for the corridor service.
-Split the "Empire Service" branding slightly (perhaps resurrecting the "Empire State Express") for trains that do/don't terminate at Albany.
-Resurrect a different name for the overnight 66/67 on the NEC (Twilight Shoreliner/Nite Owl/something else).
In both cases, there's a reason to split the name (the trains that cut at Albany obviously don't serve the rest of the state; the overnight train is slightly different from other NEC services in that it runs overnight and, at some point, may reacquire its sleeper). The same would be true of an "upgraded" train running on a corridor (or a "no frills" train running without a cafe car or BC).
There were the Congressionals, Morning, Mid-day, and evening running between NY and Washington
There were the Clockers that ran between New York and Philadelphia
The trains that rain all the way from Washington to Boston had a variety of names, like Patriot, Senator, Federal, etc.
There were a couple of NY-DC trains that had their own names, like the Keystone, because they had distinctive equipment.
Some of the named through trains to the south and west would carry passengers between NEC points. Even in early Amtrak years, as they once sold me a ticket on the Silver Meteor between Baltimore and New York, and I solso remeber riding the "Southern Crescent" (this was in 1972) between New York and Philadelphia.
I don't recall that the traveling public really cared back then, either, as all the coach seats were sold unreserved. People just went to the station and bought a ticket, they really didn't care which train they rode on, except for the schedule.
Just a train or two stands out. I am sure you recall that in the early 50s the Senator and the Congressional were re equipped as stainless steel streamliners.
Then there was the Merchants Limited which I think ran all parlor car from Boston to NYC
You mention the trains from the south. The Atlantic Coast trains and the Seaboard trains ran mostly with both sleepers and coaches from NYC through to southern points. On the other hand most Southern RR trains required a change of trains in Washington for coach passengers. Never knew why.In fact, only the train then known as the Southerner and today known as the Crescent ran coaches thru from NYC to NOL.
Abd yes, as you say, the whole thing about discharge only from Alexandria north has not always been consistent
The Empire State Express name was, IIRC, retained by Amtrak for some years after A-day for the trains it ran to Buffalo/Niagara. It also bears mentioning that about the only thing "limited" these days about the Lake Shore Limited is how much equipment Amtrak can stick onto it. Skipping two or three smaller stops does not a Limited make.
Renaming the NYP-ALB train strikes me as a bit more of a headache, branding-wise, because of the higher ridership (the NYP-ALB segment finally broke the million rider barrier last year after about four years of flirting, while the ALB-TOR segment is still around 400k).
Sliding to someone else's comment: The Adirondack, Vermonter, and Ethan Allen (just to name a few) serve parts of other corridors, but they have service areas of their own (the Adirondack breaks off and goes to Montreal, the Ethan Allen goes to Burlington, and the Vermonter covers the NEC until New Haven and then goes up through Vermont, terminating just short of the border).
As to 66/67, even shifting it to being the "Twilight Regional" (with a shift back to the "Twilight Shoreliner") would make some sense...if nothing else, a different name would mean that the slow times involved there because of timing issues (i.e. needing a decent BOS departure/WAS arrival and vice-versa) could be explained by "pigeonholing" that as a separate service ("Why do you have a Regional that takes six and a half hours to go from DC to New Haven?" "If you'll note, that's the Twilight Regional, not a standard Regional...") rather than part of the overall brand.
Edit: On the discharge north of ALX bit, Charlie and I were talking, and at one point Amtrak was very flexible because once you dropped the LD trains, you might well be down to only a few of what we'd call Regionals south of PHL (PHL-NYP had extra coverage due to the presence of the Clockers). The change is likely due to the sheer, massive number of both Regionals and Acelas now operating there...though I'll refer to the point I've made about selling a carefully controlled number of seats and whatnot NYP-WAS (not unlike the CHI/MSP or CHI-STL sales on the Eagle).
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jis
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Just as a data point to augment this discussion, in 1969 there were 12 to 13 daily trains other than LDs between Philly and DC. Of these 4 were through trains from Boston, including the overnight Federal (except Saturday) and two were Congressionals and one Keystone. The rest, except one no name number 108, had names. The Boston trains were the Senator, the Patriot, the Colonial and the Federal. This in comparison to 21 Regionals on weekdays today of which variously 9 run through to Boston and a couple to Springfield on weekdays (including the Vermonter). The Acelas are in addition to all those. So effectively service has almost tripled in number of trains and possibly a little more than doubled in terms of cars since 1969.
On the LD front towards Florida there were a total of 6 trains south of Philly compared to 3 today (though RF&P claims there were only 5!) - 2 Miami/St. Pete trains viz. the Silver Star and the Champion. One Miami train - the Silver Meteor and one Tampa train - the Gulf Coast Special. Additionally, the moral equivalent of today's Palmetto - the Everglades ran on a significantly longer schedule than today's Palmetto does between New York and Savannah. And there was the Palmland which ran to Columbia SC. The Silver Meteor and the Champion were R/D between New York and Washington DC, and the four deep Florida trains had higher fares than the corridor trains.
On the Southern there were 4 trains compared to 1 today though one could argue that the Lynchburg train is a truncated Pelican - the Crescent/Southerner (New Orleans via Birmingham southbound, via Montgomery northbound), the Birmingham Special (Birmingham via Roanoke, Chattanooga), the Pelican (Bristol VA, via Roanoke), and the Peachtree (New Orleans southbound via Montgomery and the Southerner (New Orleans northbound via Birmingham). BTW looks like the railways specialized in trying to confuse their customers and perhaps even themselves.
Remind me: Was the Pelican (terminating in Bristol) itself already truncated? For some reason, I want to say that it ran further at some point but that Southern had done a decent job of "rolling it up" earlier. I'll also say that if the whole TDX plan comes to pass here in VA, it might be worth suggesting that name to the state (Two reasons here: First, if you name both the Bristol-Washington and the Bristol-Norfolk trains as TDXes, you'll get confused people; and second, the Bristol run is long enough that simply leaving it as a "Northeast Regional" is going to cause a bit of headscratching).Just as a data point to augment this discussion, in 1969 there were 12 to 13 daily trains other than LDs between Philly and DC. Of these 4 were through trains from Boston, including the overnight Federal (except Saturday) and two were Congressionals and one Keystone. The rest, except one no name number 108, had names. The Boston trains were the Senator, the Patriot, the Colonial and the Federal. This in comparison to 21 Regionals on weekdays today of which variously 9 run through to Boston and a couple to Springfield on weekdays (including the Vermonter). The Acelas are in addition to all those. So effectively service has almost tripled in number of trains and possibly a little more than doubled in terms of cars since 1969.
On the LD front towards Florida there were a total of 6 trains south of Philly compared to 3 today (though RF&P claims there were only 5!) - 2 Miami/St. Pete trains viz. the Silver Star and the Champion. One Miami train - the Silver Meteor and one Tampa train - the Gulf Coast Special. Additionally, the moral equivalent of today's Palmetto - the Everglades ran on a significantly longer schedule than today's Palmetto does between New York and Savannah. And there was the Palmland which ran to Columbia SC. The Silver Meteor and the Champion were R/D between New York and Washington DC, and the four deep Florida trains had higher fares than the corridor trains.
On the Southern there were 4 trains compared to 1 today though one could argue that the Lynchburg train is a truncated Pelican - the Crescent/Southerner (New Orleans via Birmingham southbound, via Montgomery northbound), the Birmingham Special (Birmingham via Roanoke, Chattanooga), the Pelican (Bristol VA, via Roanoke), and the Peachtree (New Orleans southbound via Montgomery and the Southerner (New Orleans northbound via Birmingham). BTW looks like the railways specialized in trying to confuse their customers and perhaps even themselves.
Also, was The Pelican the same train that Southern kept running as a mixed train into the early 70s?
Finally, you actually shorted Southern one train: The Piedmont Limited did daylight coverage WAS-ATL (though to be fair, it terminated at Washington).
jis
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It is not there in the 1969 timetable that I am looking at. But of course that does not mean it did not exist. I have found these timetables to be notoriously inaccurate at times.
BTW, I agree that Pelican would be a good name for either one train or an entire class of daytime regional trains connecting the NEC to the Norfolk-Southern Corridor. I also think that the NEC - RF&P corridor regionals should get a distinguishing name for the service. They can all still carry the "Northeast Regional" monicker on their cafe cars AFAIAC.
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jis
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Here is what I think happened (and mind you, I could be wrong). In 1969, the combo of Crescent/Southerner/Peachtree effectively provided two trains a day service between the northeast and Atlanta. In the period late 1969 to 1971 the following changes took place:
1. Washington - New Orleans was cut down to a single train the Crescent via Birmingham.
2. The other New Orleans train became the Atlanta train - the aforementioned Piedmont, and service possibly ceased on the Atlanta, Montgomery, Mobile, New Orleans corridor, though I am not sure about this. Maybe Bill Haithcoat can chime in since he probably remembers all this right off the top of his head.
3. The Pelican disappeared.
4. The north half of the Birmingham Special essentially became a no name replacement for the Pelican as it was cut up into two trains one running Washington to Bristol and the other running Birmingham to the Tennessee border, the latter being cancelled after a few months.
These three trains plus the Ashville special survived into 1971 Amtrak Day, and continued to run for a while even after that under Southern stewardship.
You actually raise a good point that raises two other points:
1) I'm wondering what the plan is, name-wise, for the planned WAS-CLT trains (especially since four trains/day suggests that one train will either stop/start at WAS instead of NYP or have some very "fun" endpoint times). Multiple "Carolinian" trains, perhaps?
2) Likewise, I think the Virginia trains probably do need a bit of branding, if just to stand out from the 20 terminate-at-WAS Regionals. Even a simple variation on the existing name ("Tidewater Regional" strikes me as a possibility for the WAS-NPN/NFK trains) would probably do the trick. I'd say that this point goes double once they get two routes up and running "full time", since you're just going to beg customer confusion ("Wait, this train goes to Norfolk but that one goes to Newport News?" or "What do you mean my only option to go north is at 5 AM?!? All three say Northeast Regional!")
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