How would you name Amtrak's route differently?

[jis]

Incidentally, I came across this neat comprehensive list of all trains that survived uptill Amtrak Day and their dispositions after that day. Take a look at the Kalmbach List of Passenger Trains Operating on the Eve of Amtrak.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

The normal service that I grew up with in the 50s through early 60s is as follows;

Crescent, NYC, WAS ATL(same route as now) but then Montgomery,Mobile, New Orleans

Piedmont Limited, same as above

Washington Atlanta New Orleans Express WAS to atlanta

nameless local same as above

Southerner, same route as todays Crescent

Peah Queen, same route as to day but only to Atlanta.

competitor, Seaboard Silver Comet and two nameless, NYC, WAS< Richmond,ATL, Birmingham

Pelican NYC Was Lynchburg Roanoke BRistol Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Meridian, NOL

Birmingham Special same as above but only to Birmingham. Connection from Chattanooga to Memphis

Tennessean, same as above to Chattanooga and thence to Huntsville and Memphis.

Guys, do not take anything too seriously or as being too representative during those years when things began to decline seriously and quickly

What I have given above was the normal, the long time view.

Anderson, I have sent this Southern info to you before, if you need it again,let me know.Jishnu do not hesitate to email me and I will mail you the this also.

 

[Anderson]

Bill,

You did. I just didn't think to pull it up (and as you said, the late 1960s were horridly unrepresentative).

For everyone else, take a peek at these maps. Basically, between 1967 and 1970 (the pre-Amtrak freeze in discontinuations) a third of the passenger rail network in the US went away; for 1962-1970 it was just over 50% in terms of route-miles (and again, as the site says, this doesn't count the huge number of areas that went from multiple daily trains to daily service or less. Instructive here are Kansas and Colorado: Both states retained a lot of their routes, but the service frequencies cratered.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bill,

You did. I just didn't think to pull it up (and as you said, the late 1960s were horridly unrepresentative).

For everyone else, take a peek at these maps. Basically, between 1967 and 1970 (the pre-Amtrak freeze in discontinuations) a third of the passenger rail network in the US went away; for 1962-1970 it was just over 50% in terms of route-miles (and again, as the site says, this doesn't count the huge number of areas that went from multiple daily trains to daily service or less. Instructive here are Kansas and Colorado: Both states retained a lot of their routes, but the service frequencies cratered.

And keep in mind that those trains which were left were often much shorter. Those Southern trains often were just jokes from what they used to be. Most did not deserve any name at all.

 

[jis]

Real passenger trains should be at least 18-20 cars long

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Real passenger trains should be at least 18-20 cars long

You are close to reading my mind!!!! I am on my way out for awhile but might send some neat stuff later this afternoon.

 

[Anderson]

Real passenger trains should be at least 18-20 cars long

You are close to reading my mind!!!! I am on my way out for awhile but might send some neat stuff later this afternoon.

I'm always up for seeing it (if I haven't, that is), but I agree...joking aside, 15-20 cars seems to be an appropriate length for a long-distance train (commuter trains are a slightly more complicated affair, particularly if you're out on a spur line that's "only" a dozen stops or so long). I'll take something a little shorter if it is a bilevel train, but even then...the presence of a second level on the train should be used to increase capacity rather than to shorten the train.

(I'm reminded of doing the math on theoretical capacity on an 18-car Superliner train; assuming 3 FSCs, you get a capacity of 1110 passengers on an LD setup at 74 pax/car or 1350 passengers on a corridor setup at 90 pax/car, both assuming no pax seating in the FSCs)

 

[jis]

The train shown in the picture has the capacity of about 1000. It is a fully air-conditioned all sleeper overnight train (no coach accommodation at all) with sleeping accommodations of different density ranging from First Class at 20 per car to 3 Tier sections at 75 per car. Only 3 non-revenue cars in that consist, 2 baggage/generator/guard cars one at each end, and one Pantry Car to serve food at each passenger's seat/berth en-route. Food is included in the ticket for everyone on the train.

 

[cirdan]

Some may wander why the silver trains were so named. That is because the railroads were discovering stainless steel at the time they were planning a new train. They found it to be lightweight, high strength and had little or no corrosion.

The Silver Meteor, put in service in 1939,by Seaboard was among our nation's first Stainless steel streamliners.

The Silver Star and the Silver Comet (NYC to Atlanta and Birmingham) followed suit in 1947. The Silver Comet was discontinued in 1969

Yesterday's novelty became today's norm.

Of course by the time Amtrak named a train the Silver Palm the whole discussion was out of date, no longer the big deal it was in the world of 1939.

NOTE: Some railroads painted their stainless steel equipment but probably most did like Seaboard and left it in its natural silver.

fascinating. I didn't know that.

 

[afigg]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Can anyone tell me which train served Augusta, GA in 1967? We took this when we moved from GA to DE (I was 11 then). I think it left around 5 p.m.

I would name a train "Paradise" - if I were on it and "Paradise Lost" if I wasn't on it.

 

[Anderson]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

I'll agree there. Depending on which one gets shot through to Knoxville or Chattanooga (if TN gets on board), I'd suggest the "Tennessee Special" if it's coming from WAS or beyond, with the "Old Dominion Express" or something like that if it's coming out of Richmond/Norfolk. Then again, resurrecting one as the "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" might not be a bad idea, at least for ads (though they had better put something different in the timetables...a train with that as its actual name would be just as bad as those idiots who wanted to have a rolling circus from LA to Vegas! I can not see myself walking up to the ticket counter in WAS and asking for a ticket on that!).

 

[jphjaxfl]

There was a time when train names were important. The Railroad Companies that operated the trains used the names as marketing tools. Today in the modern Amtrak operating most trains, the names don't have alot of meaning. Actually Amtrak had planned to drop all names on May 1, 1971 and there were even press releases stating this. Someone prevailed and the names were kept. I think the route designations like Lincoln Service etc makes a lot more sense. If you talk to non railfan travelers, they are clueless on train names. One of my co-workers took Amtrak from Jacksonville to Tampa (first train trip in many years). I told him that he took the Silver Star and he said "no, he took the Silver Meteor". He traveled the whole route by train. He said all the brochures on the train referred to the Silver Meteor so he assumed he was on the Meteor. I told him that was not the name of the train from Jacksonville to Tampa. His response was "why does the name matter?" It got him where he wanted to go.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

.

I'll agree there. Depending on which one gets shot through to Knoxville or Chattanooga (if TN gets on board), I'd suggest the "Tennessee Special" if it's coming from WAS or beyond, with the "Old Dominion Express" or something like that if it's coming out of Richmond/Norfolk. Then again, resurrecting one as the "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" might not be a bad idea, at least for ads (though they had better put something different in the timetables...a train with that as its actual name would be just as bad as those idiots who wanted to have a rolling circus from LA to Vegas! I can not see myself walking up to the ticket counter in WAS and asking for a ticket on that!).

There never was any such thing as a train officially called the Chattanooga Choo CHoo. That is a whole other thing.

 

[TransAtlantic]

Most European trains have let naming go by the wayside, except as a little trivia quiz on ICE schedules; the exception is the international Spanish Hoteltrens, which are Salvador Dali and Joan Miro, among others. Some countries DO name the equipment, which Amtrak does to an extent.

 

[jis]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

That is a good point. Maybe Virginian would be a good moniker. Perhaps Virginian East for the Richmond, Newport News and Norfolk services and Virginian West for the service along NS and to Roanoke.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Can anyone tell me which train served Augusta, GA in 1967? We took this when we moved from GA to DE (I was 11 then). I think it left around 5 p.m.

I would name a train "Paradise" - if I were on it and "Paradise Lost" if I wasn't on it.

\\
There were two similar schedules,

Southern RR Augusta Special same route as todays Crescent as far as charlotte then over to columbis and augusta

Atantic Coast Line, nameless train, Richmond,fayette florence.

Each train had through pullman from NYC; coach passengers had to change.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

And then there is this. The Pelican was a slow multi stop heavyweight, not a "nice" train,not the kind one would name things after.

Most names Amtrak borrowed from the old railroads were of good train,believe it. The CZ, for example, for all the lateness and bad publicity it gets now today it was stil one of the finest in the day..

 

[ehbowen]

I would like to see a few of the NER trains get converted to all premium seating and called the Metroliner. It can still run at NER speeds but offer a nicer mode of travel than a typically overstuffed NER train.

If I were appointed Amtrak Tsar and given enough of a budget to make changes, one of my first moves would be to bring back the Senator as a 3-class (Coach, 2-1 Business Class, and a real first-class Parlor Car with individual seats and daytime drawing room available) premium through train between Boston and Washington with a real dining car, two cafe-lounges (one strictly for first and business class), and checked baggage service. Shortly thereafter I would resurrect the Federal as an overnight train along the corridor with setout sleepers for and from New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Can anyone tell me which train served Augusta, GA in 1967? We took this when we moved from GA to DE (I was 11 then). I think it left around 5 p.m.

I would name a train "Paradise" - if I were on it and "Paradise Lost" if I wasn't on it.

\\
There were two similar schedules,

Southern RR Augusta Special same route as todays Crescent as far as charlotte then over to columbis and augusta

Atantic Coast Line, nameless train, Richmond,fayette florence.

Each train had through pullman from NYC; coach passengers had to change.

Thanks. I do know we were in a Pullman/sleeper. And I seem to remember them adding or removing cars during the night. Guess this was in Wash?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Can anyone tell me which train served Augusta, GA in 1967? We took this when we moved from GA to DE (I was 11 then). I think it left around 5 p.m.

I would name a train "Paradise" - if I were on it and "Paradise Lost" if I wasn't on it.

\\
There were two similar schedules,

Southern RR Augusta Special same route as todays Crescent as far as charlotte then over to columbis and augusta

Atantic Coast Line, nameless train, Richmond,fayette florence.

Each train had through pullman from NYC; coach passengers had to change.

Thanks. I do know we were in a Pullman/sleeper. And I seem to remember them adding or removing cars during the night. Guess this was in Wash?

On the ACL coaches were switched on and off at WAS and at Florenec.

On the Augusta Special in Washington and Columbis and sleeper in Greensboro.email me if you wish.

 

[Donctor]

I would like to see a few of the NER trains get converted to all premium seating and called the Metroliner. It can still run at NER speeds but offer a nicer mode of travel than a typically overstuffed NER train.

If I were appointed Amtrak Tsar and given enough of a budget to make changes, one of my first moves would be to bring back the Senator as a 3-class (Coach, 2-1 Business Class, and a real first-class Parlor Car with individual seats and daytime drawing room available) premium through train between Boston and Washington with a real dining car, two cafe-lounges (one strictly for first and business class), and checked baggage service. Shortly thereafter I would resurrect the Federal as an overnight train along the corridor with setout sleepers for and from New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore.

A set-out sleeper for Baltimore? Really?

 

[Anderson]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

.

I'll agree there. Depending on which one gets shot through to Knoxville or Chattanooga (if TN gets on board), I'd suggest the "Tennessee Special" if it's coming from WAS or beyond, with the "Old Dominion Express" or something like that if it's coming out of Richmond/Norfolk. Then again, resurrecting one as the "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" might not be a bad idea, at least for ads (though they had better put something different in the timetables...a train with that as its actual name would be just as bad as those idiots who wanted to have a rolling circus from LA to Vegas! I can not see myself walking up to the ticket counter in WAS and asking for a ticket on that!).

There never was any such thing as a train officially called the Chattanooga Choo CHoo. That is a whole other thing.

I know that...it was a song (hence I said "resurrecting one as" rather than "resurrecting the"...sorry, it's a minor difference of phrasing and possibly overly nuanced on my part). I was partly being silly, but I can see the term being used as the basis for an ad campaign in the region (mind you, the ad that keeps writing itself in my mind is more reminiscent of an early 50s ad than what we're used to these days) for a corridor train to/from Chattanooga.

Edit: Actually, though it would be all sorts of wrong in terms of routing, resurrecting the Fast Flying Virginian name for one of the routes might be worth a serious look.

As to the use of names, I hold that it is useful in terms of differentiating services, if not individual trains. Someone might not care which Silver they're on, but knowing that the train they're looking for is a Silver can help when perusing a timetable. It certainly beats having to keep a bunch of train numbers straight (especially in someplace like Chicago or New York where you have lots of trains coming and going...and it goes double if you have closely-numbered trains going different places, such as 62X going one place and 64X going another...or if you've got two similarly-scheduled trains out of a station such as you'll often get in WAS: It's not uncommon to see an Acela at 12:00 and a Regional at 12:05 or something to that effect, so differentiating is useful there, too). I think names just stick out a little more than straight numbers.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The bad news guys is that 1969 was a bad year, with Amtrak only two years away trains were dropping like flies (and becoming truncated) Of course the Pelican used to go to New Orleans..that is how it got its name...not many Pelicans flying around over Virginia~~and so many things happened with the Crescent vs the Southerner that most of it drawn from one time period is highly unrepresentative.

I was wondering why would a train going to Bristol or TN would be called the Pelican. Yes, not many Pelicans flying around inland Virginia or Tennessee. If Virginia does someday start a TDX type service from WAS (or NYP) to Bristol, better to come up with a new name than use an old one that no longer makes sense.

.

I'll agree there. Depending on which one gets shot through to Knoxville or Chattanooga (if TN gets on board), I'd suggest the "Tennessee Special" if it's coming from WAS or beyond, with the "Old Dominion Express" or something like that if it's coming out of Richmond/Norfolk. Then again, resurrecting one as the "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" might not be a bad idea, at least for ads (though they had better put something different in the timetables...a train with that as its actual name would be just as bad as those idiots who wanted to have a rolling circus from LA to Vegas! I can not see myself walking up to the ticket counter in WAS and asking for a ticket on that!).

There never was any such thing as a train officially called the Chattanooga Choo CHoo. That is a whole other thing.

I know that...it was a song (hence I said "resurrecting one as" rather than "resurrecting the"...sorry, it's a minor difference of phrasing and possibly overly nuanced on my part). I was partly being silly, but I can see the term being used as the basis for an ad campaign in the region (mind you, the ad that keeps writing itself in my mind is more reminiscent of an early 50s ad than what we're used to these days) for a corridor train to/from Chattanooga.

Edit: Actually, though it would be all sorts of wrong in terms of routing, resurrecting the Fast Flying Virginian name for one of the routes might be worth a serious look.

As to the use of names, I hold that it is useful in terms of differentiating services, if not individual trains. Someone might not care which Silver they're on, but knowing that the train they're looking for is a Silver can help when perusing a timetable. It certainly beats having to keep a bunch of train numbers straight (especially in someplace like Chicago or New York where you have lots of trains coming and going...and it goes double if you have closely-numbered trains going different places, such as 62X going one place and 64X going another...or if you've got two similarly-scheduled trains out of a station such as you'll often get in WAS: It's not uncommon to see an Acela at 12:00 and a Regional at 12:05 or something to that effect, so differentiating is useful there, too). I think names just stick out a little more than straight numbers.

Do not forget the name Tennessean. tO review, it went NYC WAS Lynchburg Roanoke Bristol Knoxville C hattanoga Huntsville Memphis. In Chattanooga it had a sleeper which was transferred to a train to Nashville. So it covered all the major cities in Tennessean.

And, unlike the Pelican, it was a streamliner for most of its life though it did decline a lot in later years.

 

[jis]

Do not forget the name Tennessean. tO review, it went NYC WAS Lynchburg Roanoke Bristol Knoxville C hattanoga Huntsville Memphis. In Chattanooga it had a sleeper which was transferred to a train to Nashville. So it covered all the major cities in Tennessean.

And, unlike the Pelican, it was a streamliner for most of its life though it did decline a lot in later years.

It is kind of odd that the Pelican in a rump form lived on till after 1969, while the more illustrious trains just folded earlier. In 1969, New York - Chattanooga service was provided by the Birmingham Special, which incidentally was the fastest way to get from New York to Lynchburg. It took about the same time as today's Lynchburg Regional, though with many fewer stops, and a shorter stop at Washington.