Idea: Western LD trains split up into multiple shorter trains?

[jis]

Looking at flights from Chicago Midway or Chicago O'Hare to Denver, there is no direct first class, and I don't think there's any business class either.

Says who? Just checked on Kayak for randomly chosen mid-week date March 19- both American and United offer multiple non-stop flights daily with First Class O'Hare to Denver for $394, cheaper than Amtrak's sleeper fare of $452 for the same day.

Yeah. That one threw me, since I fly at least half a dozen times each year from ORD to DEN and quite often on complementary upgrade into First. I was wondering whether I had been transported into an alternate reality here. Well there are many other instances that give me that feeling from time to time too, but that is a separate matter.

 

[Ispolkom]

Now before you point out lack of privacy, let me point out that even high-level business folks traveling international Business Class or First Class on flights sleep in open layout flatbed seats where you can actually look at co-passengers sleeping by your side, having an upper berth-lower berth arrangement actually offers more personal space than a flight's high-end cabin.

No, I'd point out the quality of sleep. I like sleeping on trains, though no more than four nights in a row. I find, though, that people complaining about not sleeping well is the #1 topic of conversation in the diner at breakfast. For $89 you can fly from Chicago to Denver and use the rest of the difference to pay for your hotel. Comparing domestic first class to sharing half a roomette is silly. You have much less legroom in a shared roomette than you do in first class, possibly less than you do in coach. Probably it depends on whose legs are in the room. Plus, it's a 2 hour, 15 minute flight, vs. 18.5 hours on the train. Who over the age of 30 who isn't a train nut, or afraid of flying, would rather sleep in a shaking two-foot wide upper bunk rather than endure a 2.25 hour flight in coach and then sleep in a king-sized bed with a private bath, the sort of accommodation that even a Motel 6 will give you?

If overnight trains are so great for business people, why did they desert them the minute air travel became sort of safe and kind of reliable? Business people used section sleepers when that was the fastest, most comfortable means of travel. They deserted the sections for roomettes as soon as they were offered, though, and then abandoned rail travel for air, when that became available. Now on international flights people who can afford it travel in lie-flat seats on international airplanes because that's the best on offer (except for those A380 suites). I remember when I first traveled international first in the early 90s there wasn't anything lay-flat. You were happy with a Barcalounger-like recliner seat. But that sold because that was the best there was.

That's not even bringing up OTP. I've never been as late on any flight as Amtrak has done to me. I'll, for instance, fly to Chicago in the afternoon for an evening theater date. I'd never trust #8 to get me there with less than a 24 hour cushion.

 

[jis]

There are now lie flats available on certain premium routes domestically in the US too.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

So...what do people do for three hours in Minot? Get annoyed that they're sitting for three hours in Minot?

So.. what do people do for 3-4 hours in San Antonio currently when Texas Eagle waits for Sunset Limited. Or, what do people do in Chicago for several hours when connecting from western LDs to eastern LDs? Get annoyed? Well, sorry but you can't have every town in the country connected directly to every other town in the country. If your route involves layovers, you wait. And this is not limited to Amtrak.. what do you do on flights that route you through hubs with a layover? What about on Greyhound that involves changing buses? It's the same concept everywhere.

False dichotomy. You're comparing layovers between two routes with needlessly and pointlessly breaking them up. How many flights leave O'Hare bound for Sea-Tac and set down for no particular reason in Helena? You get off and wait for the Sunset Limited because it's a different route.

Your position is so ridiculous as to be untenable. You're saying because not every city pair is viable that no city pair is worth having.

 

[Ryan]

As has been repeated multiple times in this thread- people like you who travel super long distance by Amtrak are only about 10% of total passengers, so yes, when you are in minority, you might have to adjust a bit.

How much of your revenue do those 10% give you? (a heck of a lot more than 10%, that's for sure)

Also, it's been pointed out to you that far more than 10% are traveling across your arbitrary borders, so your claim that only 10% of people doesn't really hold any water.

 

[Paulus]

As has been repeated multiple times in this thread- people like you who travel super long distance by Amtrak are only about 10% of total passengers, so yes, when you are in minority, you might have to adjust a bit.

How much of your revenue do those 10% give you? (a heck of a lot more than 10%, that's for sure)
Also, it's been pointed out to you that far more than 10% are traveling across your arbitrary borders, so your claim that only 10% of people doesn't really hold any water.

Gross revenue and net revenue are two very important distinctions though.

 

[Anderson]

Let's also not forget that, taking the handy Zephyr example, you've just added another night to an already long trip. Under this model, to get from CHI-California, I now have to take three nights instead of two. That right there chews up trip time and reduces the utility of the train(s) in question. It's also one thing to have a layover in a city once or twice. If you're a regular traveler, it gets old.

I can't express how frustrated I would be if I was having to do a "musical chairs" layover in ABQ every time I took the Chief, particularly if it was a very long layover. CHI can be frustrating as it is, but the layover is usually in the 4-6 hour range if everything is on time (and ends up being a bit shorter often enough).

In my case, I am taking the train to get from A to B. The scenery is a bonus, yes, but I'm not taking the train to take a grand tour of the US like I often see done with bus package trips. I once flipped through such a magazine, and it included a bus trip to the Grand Canyon that spent like five days in transit, stopping at hotels along the way each night and making tourist stops along the route...and all I could think of was that it sounded like hell. I am not taking Amtrak to get a whistle-stop tour of the country every time I go on vacation, I am taking it to get somewhere in a timely manner as comfortably as possible!

 

[neroden]

Looking at flights from Chicago Midway or Chicago O'Hare to Denver, there is no direct first class, and I don't think there's any business class either.

Says who? Just checked on Kayak for randomly chosen mid-week date March 19- both American and United offer multiple non-stop flights daily with First Class O'Hare to Denver for $394, cheaper than Amtrak's sleeper fare of $452 for the same day.

Yeah. That one threw me, since I fly at least half a dozen times each year from ORD to DEN and quite often on complementary upgrade into First. I was wondering whether I had been transported into an alternate reality here. Well there are many other instances that give me that feeling from time to time too, but that is a separate matter.

I guess I was looking at the wrong booking websites (geez there are a mess of airline booking websites these days). Either that or first class sells out very very fast and you have to pick the right dates to check.

Anyway, it still looks like there's no first class flights from Midway. And you know the extra problem with both O'Hare and Denver Airports, on top of the usual TSA sucks, waiting in airports sucks, marching through airports sucks -- their locations, each an hour away from the city they supposedly serve.

Denver Airport is a particular monstrosity, which seems to have been designed for a humungous expansion of air travel which will never happen. Last time I knew someone who flew through Denver Airport, I remember telling them to leave an hour just to get from the entrance to their flight. But I've actually done the same walking from one end of O'Hare to the other. The biggest airports are the opposite of compact.

 

[neroden]

No, I'd point out the quality of sleep. I like sleeping on trains, though no more than four nights in a row. I find, though, that people complaining about not sleeping well is the #1 topic of conversation in the diner at breakfast.

Weird. I sleep much better on the train than at home. Can't say why, but it's not that uncommon. Maybe people who were rocked to sleep as babies?

For $89 you can fly from Chicago to Denver and use the rest of the difference to pay for your hotel. Comparing domestic first class to sharing half a roomette is silly. You have much less legroom in a shared roomette than you do in first class, possibly less than you do in coach. Probably it depends on whose legs are in the room. Plus, it's a 2 hour, 15 minute flight, vs. 18.5 hours on the train. Who over the age of 30 who isn't a train nut, or afraid of flying, would rather sleep in a shaking two-foot wide upper bunk rather than endure a 2.25 hour flight in coach and then sleep in a king-sized bed with a private bath, the sort of accommodation that even a Motel 6 will give you?

My fiancee who often can't move after a plane flight due to arthritis-related issues and may have to be bodily carried out.
In the old days, one would actually stand up and stretch in the aisle on the plane. There was, unfortunately a period when the security craziness meant that they were not permitting this any more, which was around the time I swore off the disgusting indignity of US air travel altogether. Has that been reversed yet?

Actually, another, probably much larger, market is anyone who doesn't want to be groped by the TSA, nudie-scanned by the TSA, subjected to dangerous doses of radiation from the backscatter scanners, have their luggage broken into by the TSA, be assaulted and threatened by the TSA... anyone who needs to carry their own liquids on the trip due to special dietary needs... anyone who wants to use a brand of toothpaste which doesn't come in TSA-approved sizes... anyone who needs their nail file... etc.

I realize the airlines can do nothing about this situation, and would probably prefer it to be reversed. But it is de facto government policy to discourage air travel among anyone who has any real standards. Air travel in the US is disgusting and demeaning and it's well worth going way out of one's way to avoid it. (I'll still fly internationally. Out of international airports only.)

 

[Paulus]

Looking at flights from Chicago Midway or Chicago O'Hare to Denver, there is no direct first class, and I don't think there's any business class either.

Says who? Just checked on Kayak for randomly chosen mid-week date March 19- both American and United offer multiple non-stop flights daily with First Class O'Hare to Denver for $394, cheaper than Amtrak's sleeper fare of $452 for the same day.

Yeah. That one threw me, since I fly at least half a dozen times each year from ORD to DEN and quite often on complementary upgrade into First. I was wondering whether I had been transported into an alternate reality here. Well there are many other instances that give me that feeling from time to time too, but that is a separate matter.

I guess I was looking at the wrong booking websites (geez there are a mess of airline booking websites these days). Either that or first class sells out very very fast and you have to pick the right dates to check.

Personally I recommend matrix.itasoftware.com. Looking at the month of March, cheapest non-stop first class flights range $544-$982 for a 1-2 night layover. Economy ranges $148-$497.

Anyway, it still looks like there's no first class flights from Midway. And you know the extra problem with both O'Hare and Denver Airports, on top of the usual TSA sucks, waiting in airports sucks, marching through airports sucks -- their locations, each an hour away from the city they supposedly serve.

The lack of first class flights between Midway and Denver is because that route is only served by two low-cost airlines who don't have first class at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the whole point of flying into/out of Chicago Midway, that you're using a cheaper air carrier at a less convenient airport.

As for waiting in airports sucking and their distance away from the cities that they serve: air travel is so much faster than rail that it simply doesn't matter. The fact that door to door time is say, 5 hours, with a spot of boredom in the airport (easily solved with any of the multitude of electronic devices now routine or, failing that, my time-honored solution of a book) is irrelevant compared to the hours wasted waiting for the train to arrive at it's destination, especially considering that those who earn enough money to afford a sleeper are those who are going to put the highest value on a shorter travel time.

 

[JoeBas]

"those who earn enough money to afford a sleeper are those who are going to put the highest value on a shorter travel time."

Not true. There are lots of us out here who earn a comfortable upper middle class living & have sufficient vacation time to see it worth the time in transit to travel in a more civilized manner.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

OK, let me get this straight, you want me to take the CZ from EMY to DEN, sit in DEN for 5 hours only to get on a second train to CHI arriving at 6AM only to have to wait in CHI to catch my home train at 9:30PM. It would make me stop riding for sure. I thought the 6 hours in CHI is a long time, Plus being disabled, changing trains just because, well that is not something I would want to do. Like has been said before, if someone wants to ride from Salt Lake to Omaha, they would have to take two trains and wait 5 hours in DEN for a total of 19 hours rather than just 14 hours on the LD train with no transferring needed

As has been repeated multiple times in this thread- people like you who travel super long distance by Amtrak are only about 10% of total passengers, so yes, when you are in minority, you might have to adjust a bit. Why is changing trains in DEN such a big issue while changing trains in CHI is acceptable? Why don't you suggest that all LD trains should run coast-to-coast so that you don't have change trains in CHI? For short distance travelers across train boundaries, even today passengers traveling east of Chicago to west of Chicago have to endure a long layover in CHI. Similar for north of SAS to east or west of SAS on Sunset/Eagle. This is the reality of public transport- it cannot work for everyone from their door to door, if you want to travel long distances, you need to connect or change trains.

Yes I totally understand that, I was just pointing out that people who are traveling from large cities to other large cities that are not on the proposed list would have to change trains, where right now as it is they don't. I never said anything about the change in Chicago as an issue. You are talking about breaking up the LD trains, I was just commenting on that. You input the issue with Chicago, NOT me.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I travel an average of once a month on business. The only route where it is practical to take Amtrak vs flying is Jacksonville to Washington, DC. I can leave Jacksonville around 5pm and be in DC for a full day of business if the train is on time, but one time service was suspended due to weather, but I had no problem getting there by plane. A roomette on the Silver Meteor is 3 times what coach airfare is and I pay extra to sit forward. The company won't reimburse the cost of the roomette because air is cheaper and faster. I do pay the roomete cost myself sometimes and use Amtrak. Last week I went to Dallas for 2 days. Amtrak would take me 3 days to get there. Can't justify that.

 

[Ispolkom]

No, I'd point out the quality of sleep. I like sleeping on trains, though no more than four nights in a row. I find, though, that people complaining about not sleeping well is the #1 topic of conversation in the diner at breakfast.

Weird. I sleep much better on the train than at home. Can't say why, but it's not that uncommon. Maybe people who were rocked to sleep as babies?

Nevertheless, the two most common conversation topics I have with strangers at breakfast in the diner are 1) how hard it is to sleep on the train, and 2) how tiny the roomette is.

I still don't understand, if trains are such a great method of long-distance transportation, why did people stop riding them?

The lack of first class flights between Midway and Denver is because that route is only served by two low-cost airlines who don't have first class at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the whole point of flying into/out of Chicago Midway, that you're using a cheaper air carrier at a less convenient airport.

Isn't Midway more convenient than O'Hare? It seems a much faster ride to the Loop. The cheap airline thing, though, I won't argue.

As for waiting in airports sucking and their distance away from the cities that they serve: air travel is so much faster than rail that it simply doesn't matter. The fact that door to door time is say, 5 hours, with a spot of boredom in the airport (easily solved with any of the multitude of electronic devices now routine or, failing that, my time-honored solution of a book) is irrelevant compared to the hours wasted waiting for the train to arrive at it's destination.

Another good point. I don't consider train time wasted, but that's only because I enjoy riding the train. Lots of people don't.

 

[jis]

There is a underlying change in the domestic travel patterns at US airports. I saw several weeks ago that United Airlines was dropping Cleveland airport as a hub as a consequence of the merger. The industry has been consolidating to fewer and bigger hub airports which means ever more travelers in the smaller cities have to connect through hubs or sometimes even 2 hubs to get where they want to go.

The trend is unmistakable. Unless a hub pays for its upkeep it will be gone. The merger simply hastened the demise of the CLE hub, but the writing was on the wall and it was being downsized from hub to focus city by Continental anyway irrespective of whether the merger happened or not.
But the one or two hop thing, all that it does is extends the radius of the circle of viability for passenger trains around those places. It still does not make for passenger trains being a viable option for most case say between Cleveland and Los Angeles, or even Cleveland and Bakersfield.

 

[Trogdor]

Looking at flights from Chicago Midway or Chicago O'Hare to Denver, there is no direct first class, and I don't think there's any business class either.

Sure, a sleeper compartment is a lot more expensive than cattle class.

But the sleeper clientele is the clientele who does not want to travel in cattle class. (They probably don't want to drive out to O'Hare or out to DIA either.)

They are able and willing to pay a large premium to avoid cattle class. This clientele, however, is not rich enough to afford chartered private planes. (And nobody is going to add a stop to their route just in order to get a first class ticket -- even if you did, the first class one-way plane ticket from Chicago to Denver would be upwards of $590. I checked!)

This is the core of your sleeper market.

I'd wager that the core sleeper market is not the same group that flies first class on a domestic flight. Sure, there could be some overlap, but there are many folks who travel sleeper who (if they fly at all) often fly coach on a domestic flight. You're comparing a trip of 12, 18, 24, or maybe even 48 hours, with a trip of 1-3 hours. Major difference.

 


Even if you are considering a short overnight sleeper trip vs. an air trip for a business traveler, the typical business traveler isn't flying in first class either (unless he got there on an elite upgrade). Excluding New York-Los Angeles or New York-San Francisco (where airlines fly specially configured premium-heavy configurations to cater to Hollywood contracts and major executive requirements), the typical domestic US flight might have 8-12 first class seats, and 100-150 economy seats. Half those first class seats are often folks who upgraded and didn't actually buy first class. So, the reality is, most business travelers are flying in coach. Most people are flying in coach. Even those who like train travel and would ride in a sleeper.

 

 

 

As has been repeated multiple times in this thread- people like you who travel super long distance by Amtrak are only about 10% of total passengers, so yes, when you are in minority, you might have to adjust a bit. Why is changing trains in DEN such a big issue while changing trains in CHI is acceptable? Why don't you suggest that all LD trains should run coast-to-coast so that you don't have change trains in CHI? For short distance travelers across train boundaries, even today passengers traveling east of Chicago to west of Chicago have to endure a long layover in CHI. Similar for north of SAS to east or west of SAS on Sunset/Eagle. This is the reality of public transport- it cannot work for everyone from their door to door, if you want to travel long distances, you need to connect or change trains.

 


And as has been repeated multiple times in this thread, which you conveniently ignore, arbitrarily breaking a train up just because most people aren't traveling end-to-end, doesn't accomplish anything. It does, however, add lots of costs (additional crew and facilities at the terminals, additional station staff, crew bases, etc.), adds logistical complications if you're selling connections, etc. Connecting in Chicago works because Chicago offers connections to lots of different destinations that couldn't be served with one train. Connecting in Denver, or SLC, or Minot, ND, does not.

 

Gross revenue and net revenue are two very important distinctions though.

I think you mean net income. The only difference between gross revenue and net revenue would be any refunds issued.

 

Anyway, it still looks like there's no first class flights from Midway. And you know the extra problem with both O'Hare and Denver Airports, on top of the usual TSA sucks, waiting in airports sucks, marching through airports sucks -- their locations, each an hour away from the city they supposedly serve.

I've only ever used Denver airport for connections, so don't have any experience going to/from town, but O'Hare isn't really that bad of a location. Midway is closer to downtown, to be sure, but when I lived in Lincoln Park and Lakeview, the time to get to O'Hare wasn't that much longer than the time it took to get to Midway. Even having lived near downtown for three years, it was really only an extra 25-30 minutes to get to O'Hare by CTA (cabs were expensive, but the couple times I took a cab from O'Hare during off peak, the travel time was maybe 10-15 minutes longer).

 


O'Hare is far more convenient for those living on the north side of Chicago, and all of the (particularly wealthy) northern and western suburbs.

 

[jis]

Also keep in mind that for most business travelers who fly frequently, who you hope would use sleepers, the TSA sucks waiting time is down close to zero now. As for an hour from city, it depends on where you are trying to travel from and to.

For example from where I live, access to Amtrak or a significant air hub is about exactly the same time. Actually Amtrak is a little less convenient. But as it turns out parking at the Amtrak station costs much much less than at the airport. So it still pays to park at the Amtrak station take transit to the airport and fly out of there and still get to most locations off of the NEC quicker than by Amtrak. On NEC and most of its extensions is almost always more convenient by Amtrak.

As for flying first class, most paid first class fliers on domestic flights with the exception of the PS flights appear to be connecting to international legs where they are in BC. At least on the flights I frequent 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the FC cabin is complementary or mileage or certificate upgrades. Domestic is mostly an airline provided perk for frequent fliers.

 

[The Journalist]

I'll admit some bias here, since I've ridden the Zephyr several times through the "Nevada dead zone" (RNO-SLC) when I had reasons to spend random weekends in SLC on short notice, but splitting the LD's and making them all daytime seems like a bafflingly bad idea that will cost more and bring in less revenue. The linked topic seems to hyper focus on the Crescent (with its attendant issues south of Atlanta) and compare it to the daytime Palmetto, while not acknowledging that the Palmetto shares all of its stations and therefore a not-insignificant amount of costs with the Meteor.

What would make a lot more sense is to continue the Meteor/Palmetto model, keeping the LD's as they are-though hopefully be able to make them longer-and increase frequency on the busiest parts-"Denver Zephyr," "Peachtree," and "North Star," anyone?-which will both increase ridership and make the financials better, but of course there are myriad issues with doing that in most places. It's no accident that the Meteor is one the better-performing LD's.

Another random note: I noticed that VIA's Jasper-Prince Rupert route (ex-Skeena) lays over overnight halfway through its route-essentially making it two "day trains" but using the same equipment. It doesn't carry sleepers-passengers get of and stay in hotels if they're going through, apparently. Is there some operational reason for this? It seems really arbitrary.

 

[Texan Eagle]

In the old days, one would actually stand up and stretch in the aisle on the plane. There was, unfortunately a period when the security craziness meant that they were not permitting this any more, which was around the time I swore off the disgusting indignity of US air travel altogether. Has that been reversed yet?
Actually, another, probably much larger, market is anyone who doesn't want to be groped by the TSA, nudie-scanned by the TSA, subjected to dangerous doses of radiation from the backscatter scanners, have their luggage broken into by the TSA, be assaulted and threatened by the TSA... anyone who needs to carry their own liquids on the trip due to special dietary needs... anyone who wants to use a brand of toothpaste which doesn't come in TSA-approved sizes... anyone who needs their nail file... etc.

You seem to have an extreme idea of air travel, much of which is not true. You can stand up, stretch in the aisle and walk up and down the aisles as many times as you want, there is no rule against it. In fact many airlines these days actually encourage you to do this, you will find it in the inflight magazine that you should get up and stretch every 2 or 3 hours in a long flight.

Now let's go through your list of TSA-hatred. Let me tell you, I am a brown-skinned young male, so fitting perfectly in the stereotype demographic that paranoid Americans consider "terrorists", so you'd guess if TSA indeed did all that you mention, it should have happened with me more than average Joe in my 50+ flights in last 4 years, but did it happen? Let's see-

groped by the TSA - NEVER

nudie-scanned by the TSA - NEVER. The scanner only shows an outline of the body, the display is visible to you, its not hidden

subjected to dangerous doses of radiation from the backscatter scanners - the radiation you get out of a brief scan is nowhere near dangerous levels

have their luggage broken into by the TSA - NOT EVEN ONCE

be assaulted and threatened by the TSA - NEVER

anyone who needs to carry their own liquids on the trip due to special dietary needs - You can carry it in checked bags, just not on carry ons.

anyone who wants to use a brand of toothpaste which doesn't come in TSA-approved sizes - You can carry it in checked bags, just not on carry ons.

anyone who needs their nail file - You can carry it in checked bags, just not on carry ons.

 

[Paulus]

"those who earn enough money to afford a sleeper are those who are going to put the highest value on a shorter travel time."

Not true. There are lots of us out here who earn a comfortable upper middle class living & have sufficient vacation time to see it worth the time in transit to travel in a more civilized manner.

Generally not if you're doing it for business travel. And while, yes, there are the occasional outliers, as a statistical matter and how you would approach any business plan, my statement remains true (for those of you wondering, for air travelers, value of time [the amount they would be willing to spend to reduce trip time or the reduction in fare to accept additional trip time] has been estimated at $70/hour for business and $31/hour for non-business travelers with a 60/40 split between the two types in the air travel industry; alternatively, the FAA uses $28.60 in 2000 dollars).

 

[JoeBas]

groped by the TSA - NEVERnudie-scanned by the TSA - NEVER. The scanner only shows an outline of the body, the display is visible to you, its not hidden

subjected to dangerous doses of radiation from the backscatter scanners - the radiation you get out of a brief scan is nowhere near dangerous levels

have their luggage broken into by the TSA - NOT EVEN ONCE

be assaulted and threatened by the TSA - NEVER

anyone who needs to carry their own liquids on the trip due to special dietary needs - You can carry it in checked bags, just not on carry ons.

anyone who wants to use a brand of toothpaste which doesn't come in TSA-approved sizes - You can carry it in checked bags, just not on carry ons.

anyone who needs their nail file - You can carry it in checked bags, just not on carry ons.

Never happened to you, never happened to anyone. Seems like throughout this thread, your opinion is that if you're not traveling that way, or it's not happening to you, then it doesn't exist, or isn't a big deal.

This is a hallmark of the young, so I don't hold it against you. But you need to realize that it really isn't all about you.

Next time you're on a train, ask your dining car tablemates (unless you're practicing what you preach and avoiding the diners out of principle) what they think of the TSA. Beware of flying spittle.

TSA is Amtrak's best marketing.

 

[JoeBas]

Generally not if you're doing it for business travel. And while, yes, there are the occasional outliers, as a statistical matter and how you would approach any business plan, my statement remains true (for those of you wondering, for air travelers, value of time [the amount they would be willing to spend to reduce trip time or the reduction in fare to accept additional trip time] has been estimated at $70/hour for business and $31/hour for non-business travelers with a 60/40 split between the two types in the air travel industry; alternatively, the FAA uses $28.60 in 2000 dollars).

I would LOVE to see numbers on how many people are taking Amtrak (LD, outside of corridor service) for business. I suspect the number is WAY WAY WAY below the 10% end to end figure being so blithely dismissed here.

Most people on Amtrak, in my experience, are either a) Traveling for personal reasons, or b) work in a business like writing, or art, where they have their own schedules.

That being said, most are NOT on a "Land Cruise", just going around to be on the train. They're trying to get from Point A to Point B in a civilized, relaxed way, and have the time and income to afford to do so.

 

[andersone]

Last spring i flew to NOL to catch a cruise because I didn't have the time to drive over and then take the City . I had not flown since 1989 and was aghast at the ***** TSA. I have a trachea and cant talk without hands and while going through the scanner where I was asked a question, dropped my hand to respond and got yelled at like I was a 6 year old. I have an artificial hip and when trying to slip my shoes on I fell. The worst was on the return in NO when I left some change in my pocket. I tried to take it out and put in the little basket. The TSA agent grabbed me and sprayed something on my hands and shoved them under some sort of device.. When I asked what it was, he wouldn't tell me. When I asked to speak to a supervisor he told me he was the supervisor.

My fear of flying doesn't come near my fear of the *****. Sooner or later we will learn that you can't defeat people who are willing to kill themselves for their cause. May you enjoy the friendly skies, I am back to driving or the joys of rail.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Never happened to you, never happened to anyone. Seems like throughout this thread, your opinion is that if you're not traveling that way, or it's not happening to you, then it doesn't exist, or isn't a big deal.
This is a hallmark of the young, so I don't hold it against you. But you need to realize that it really isn't all about you.

Next time you're on a train, ask your dining car tablemates (unless you're practicing what you preach and avoiding the diners out of principle) what they think of the TSA. Beware of flying spittle.

TSA is Amtrak's best marketing.

I never said it never happened to anyone, I was saying that the person who listed out those things was greatly exaggerating and those are one-off things rather than a regular feature of air travel these days, and considering I have taken over 50 flights in the last 4 years, I guess I have a better idea of how things work than a person who confessed to have sworn to not take a flight since several years.

Thanks for the unsolicited generalization about my age, but trust me, contrary to what you may think, this is not about me. Someone like jis who travels by airplanes much more than I do will be able to corroborate the points I made about TSA not being that big a deal. Look, I am no fan of TSA, but I don't hate them either. They are just a minor annoyance that takes under a minute to get over, its worse only if you mentally think of them as incarnations of devil out to suck happiness out of you.

I don't know what principle are you talking about that would make me to skip dining cars on Amtrak. I love them as much as you all, and ideally I would love for every LD train to have a full dining car AND a SSL AND a PPC, but unfortunately we live in days of budget cuts, so all I was suggesting in previous posts about cutting down services was just being practical and open to accept a grim reality that will hit us sooner or later.

 

[Ryan]

You seem to be very clearly implying here that if it hasn't happened to you, it isn't happening.

Now let's go through your list of TSA-hatred. Let me tell you, I am a brown-skinned young male, so fitting perfectly in the stereotype demographic that paranoid Americans consider "terrorists", so you'd guess if TSA indeed did all that you mention, it should have happened with me more than average Joe in my 50+ flights in last 4 years, but did it happen? Let's see-

Also, checked "just put it in checked luggage" is a crap solution that costs both time and money.